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organiccornflake organiccornflake is offline
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March 28th, 2012, 07:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Granite View Post
Critics of libertarianism confuse personal liberty with hedonism. Their claim to "love freedom" is a complete lie--what they want is a government big enough to enforce their own pet projects.
No, I want a small government that prohibits poison and baby murders. Do you really not see that the "private" Sector would fall apart if permitted to do whatever they wanted? Industry, government, and society are made up of individuals, so The collapse wouldn't happen all at once, but as each individual family got hooked on drugs, brothels, and all the other things you think are permit-able to do to yourself, society would slowly collapse.

In an ideal world, where everyone had a strong work ethic and the sense to use drugs and prostitutes as safely as possible, it might be able to be pulled off. However, we do
Not live in an ideal world.





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Quincy Quincy is offline
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March 28th, 2012, 09:46 PM

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Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior View Post
I haven't heard it put that way before: "If you legalize sodomy and dope, our country will be great and better than all of the rest."
A state would be legalizing it, not a nation. Understand that already, a state.

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We live in a day of technology, marketing and interstate commerce. What's "in" in California will soon be popular in other states as well.
No, no it won't. There will be plenty of states that will never adopt Californication.

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If you would like to have our "57 states" (mocking President Obama here) do their own thing, so be it, but don't try to call them "United" anymore.
I don't care about Obama at all. The states would be united for many reasons but one wouldn't be mandated morality enforced by a particular political party. Keeping power localized is the best way to ensure we don't have a situation like we have now. Giving all the power to the federal government, our situation was bound to happen. You think you can keep republicans in there forever? That no liberals would gain back control and then undo whatever "conservatives" do? Centralized government is nothing but a yo-yo.

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Why are your kind always silent when it comes to children at gay pride parades?

You don't want me to show you what really goes on at those parades Quincy (this pic is PG rated)
I don't go to gay pride parades and I wouldn't go to straight ones either. I'm Southern, I believe it's in bad taste to flaunt sexuality. As for the pic, that's disgusting but expected of a man/woman/child or whatever you are. God bless your freedom to do it though. See, I didn't even bother reporting it. I'm just going to tell you that you're a sicko and ask you refrain from such junk if you want to continue this conversation. Good old fashioned squelching, no authority needed.

Quote:
Then homosexuality should be illegal as well.
I don't believe God/nature intended for marriage (union for reproduction) to be between same sex couples, obviously. I can observe the difference between a state granted secular marriage and one ordained by God however. I don't view same sex couples as being married, my state will never observe it as long as some liberals don't get in office and force it to. Which is at the heart of what I'm trying to say here, people still want to keep giving the feds more power though . One day they will surely force us to. If we allow for liberty, then we will have the right to have states where it isn't observed.

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Funny how you're tying in socialism (mandated healthcare) with sodomous acts. I'm against both. Do the respective states have a right to impose socialized healthcare on it's citizens?
Impose? In just about any libertarian system there is no imposing. If a state had the surplus and the population the desire, then they could institute standardized healthcare.

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I doubt that they had that in mind when the Founding Fathers wrote the founding documents. Do the respective states have a right to decide if incest, bestiality, abortion, pornography and homosexuality should be legal?
Not if one were criminal, harming another individual, born or unborn.

Quote:
Again, I doubt (and can prove) that the Founding Fathers didn't have those things in mind when they established our Christian nation.
So then we are supposed to give power to the federal government to police them? Why not just give them total power?

I'd like to see a good answer on when, why and how to limit their power once you start giving it to them.

Why don't we criminalize abortion, alcohol, tobacco, drugs, gambling, prostitution, gluttony, sloth-ism, homosexuality, pornography, then ration caffeine, sugar and cell phones nationwide (among other things). Wouldn't bother me at all, I'm a moral absolutist and take exception to all those. We might as well to just cut the relativistic baloney and criminalize everything that is potentially detrimental to society. If we're playing power broker and not fair, let's just burn Babylon down, right?

Thing is, I understand that liberty affords me the opportunity to be who I am. I can reject these things because I'm free to follow my moral compass. It won't always be that way though, if people keep giving power to the feds. In our system, there would be no federal funding of clinics that perform abortion either, so I wouldn't even have to worry about involvement in that.

That is what this is all about. We aren't promoting lawlessness, we are promoting limiting centralized power so we do not get lawlessness forced upon us. Think about that. Anyways, you do realize a republican and neo-confederate will not see eye to eye anymore than a liberal and conservative will. Just passing that along, you won't change my mind. Posting filthy pictures as well as things off topic, won't either.





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Quincy Quincy is offline
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March 28th, 2012, 10:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mighty_duck View Post
You don't really set out a guideline, only mention what you like or dislike.

Public nudity is not "a physical action against another person directly", as you put it. How is it different then forcing you to wear a sombrero, or banning you from wearing white after Labor Day? If I convince the majority to enforce those laws, would you not feel your personal liberty has been assaulted?
Because it is nudity. There are more people on the side of the right to not see it then there is on the side of the right to see it. Then you have to consider, how do you police people who use nudity to do sexual harassment if nudity is legal. Everyone would have to be nude before you could say that person isn't harassing others.

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While I agree, you again failed to give an argument. Why is it wrong?

There is also a distinction between what you feel is wrong, and you feel should be legislated against. For example, I feel that adultery is wrong on many levels, but don't want the government involved in it.
Well it's cruelty for one. Then if you can have laws stating children can't consent, you can build similar one's for beasts. I think animals should have several rights for the same reason we do. No one wants to be raped.

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If I am a billionaire and wanted to protect myself against armed gangs, lynch mobs, drug cartels, Ocean's 14 etc. what are the limits on how well armed I can be? If not tactical nukes, Can I at least get a few tanks?
No, I think it's about equal force. If you have a tank, no one else has one and that is excessive force. Just look at the Trayvon Martin case. The man shot him and he was unarmed. He should be in jail for that alone because most self defense laws require equal force in most cases.


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But here's the rub. There is a clash between personal liberty and assumed risk. Why should the government tell it's citizens what risks they can and can't take?

As ACW mentioned, how is this different from other risky forms of sexual encounters?
Well, the government has an vested interest in protecting the population and growing it. We need a private sector workforce for many reasons. There are certain limited things the government has to do and it needs the funds to do them. You can tie this in with abortion too, because of limiting population growth.

So we need to promote having the most effective population we can and if we run a risk of not doing what we can to deter severe inbreeding, (or aborting large chunks of the population) we run a risk of damaging society.

As for other sexual encounters, the damage inbreeding can cause society seems more dire to me than something like homosexuality. I can't with good conscience support homosexuality because I believe sex is an act of reproduction. You have to pick your battles however so incest seems a more dire situation.





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Granite Granite is online now
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March 29th, 2012, 06:07 AM

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No, I want a small government that prohibits poison and baby murders.
That's not a "small" government at all. Explain to me how the War on Drugs would work without massive federal infrastructure, bureaucracy, manpower, and funding. You so-called conservatives talk a good game until you actually start describing the government you want: big military, big spending (on your own pet priorities), no true shrinking of federal power, or size. All you people want is to run things, not to reduce.

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Do you really not see that the "private" Sector would fall apart if permitted to do whatever they wanted?
Probably would. Since I don't think the private sector (whatever you mean by this) should do "whatever they want" (who is "they"?) you're asking me a question about something I didn't say. Back to you. Please stick to what I actually write, not what you imagine I have.

You seem to think, like every other nanny stater, that people can't make their own choices or at least can't be trusted with them. That's just the same run of the mill meddlesome crap every other intrusive bureaucrat favors, no matter what their party. You big government evangelicals are no different.





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Last edited by Granite; March 29th, 2012 at 06:29 AM..
   
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aCultureWarrior aCultureWarrior is offline
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March 29th, 2012, 08:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
I haven't heard it put that way before: "If you legalize sodomy and dope, our country will be great and better than all of the rest."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quincy View Post
A state would be legalizing it, not a nation. Understand that already, a state.
A state that is part of a nation that was founded under the principles of God. Yes, I understand that you want to destroy a nation that was once good and decent.


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We live in a day of technology, marketing and interstate commerce. What's "in" in California will soon be popular in other states as well.

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No, no it won't. There will be plenty of states that will never adopt Californication.
Perhaps not; but that doesn't change the fact that there would be a moral rot at the foundation of our country: allowing the individual states to decide what is moral and what isn't. The Founding Fathers would turn over in their graves if they read what you've wrote.
If you want to start a new country based on Libertarian doctrine, then so be it (I'll literally see you on the battlefield Quincy), but don't go using the Constitution of the United States as your platform for your "states rights" argument.


Quote:
If you would like to have our "57 states" (mocking President Obama here) do their own thing, so be it, but don't try to call them "United" anymore.

Quote:
I don't care about Obama at all. The states would be united for many reasons but one wouldn't be mandated morality enforced by a particular political party. Keeping power localized is the best way to ensure we don't have a situation like we have now. Giving all the power to the federal government, our situation was bound to happen. You think you can keep republicans in there forever? That no liberals would gain back control and then undo whatever "conservatives" do? Centralized government is nothing but a yo-yo.
It's true that a couple of federal decisions effected the entire country (Roe v Wade and Lawrence v Texas). But our country didn't become a moral cesspool overnight, it was decades in the making. It took time to get to where we're at, it'll take time to return to a God-loving decent society. Giving respective states the so-called "right" to legislate sinful behavior such as abortion, sodomy and recreational drug use will only lead us that much faster into the bowels of Hell.


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Why are your kind always silent when it comes to children at gay pride parades?

You don't want me to show you what really goes on at those parades Quincy (this pic is PG rated)

Quote:
I don't go to gay pride parades and I wouldn't go to straight ones either. I'm Southern, I believe it's in bad taste to flaunt sexuality.
10's of millions do, children included. Why don't you participate in the culture you defend Quincy? What's a matter, you don't have the stomach to see it in person?

Quote:
As for the pic, that's disgusting but expected of a man/woman/child or whatever you are. God bless your freedom to do it though. See, I didn't even bother reporting it. I'm just going to tell you that you're a sicko and ask you refrain from such junk if you want to continue this conversation. Good old fashioned squelching, no authority needed.
Leave it to a God-hating Libertarian like you to put the blame on me for exposing the truth. While many parents take their children to gay pride parades, as I've shown in other threads, the gay pride parade comes to children's schools as well.
http://www.wnd.com/2009/12/118976/


Quote:
Then homosexuality should be illegal as well.

Quote:
I don't believe God/nature intended for marriage (union for reproduction) to be between same sex couples, obviously. I can observe the difference between a state granted secular marriage and one ordained by God however. I don't view same sex couples as being married, my state will never observe it as long as some liberals don't get in office and force it to. Which is at the heart of what I'm trying to say here, people still want to keep giving the feds more power though . One day they will surely force us to. If we allow for liberty, then we will have the right to have states where it isn't observed.
I personally don't care what you "believe" Quincy. Homosexuals have invaded not only the valuable institution of marriage and are trying to redefine the traditional family, but other institutions such as religion, the military, education and youth mentor groups.

Those are the facts, and you can "believe" what you want.





Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.
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mighty_duck mighty_duck is offline
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March 29th, 2012, 12:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quincy View Post
Because it is nudity. There are more people on the side of the right to not see it then there is on the side of the right to see it. Then you have to consider, how do you police people who use nudity to do sexual harassment if nudity is legal. Everyone would have to be nude before you could say that person isn't harassing others.
That's an argument in favor of tyranny of the majority, not for personal liberty when no harm is done.

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Originally Posted by Quincy View Post
Well it's cruelty for one. Then if you can have laws stating children can't consent, you can build similar one's for beasts. I think animals should have several rights for the same reason we do. No one wants to be raped.
No one wants to be locked in a cage or killed and eaten. We don't have the same laws for humans and animals.

In terms of cruelty, bestiality is nothing compared to the cruel things we can legally do to animals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quincy View Post
No, I think it's about equal force. If you have a tank, no one else has one and that is excessive force. Just look at the Trayvon Martin case. The man shot him and he was unarmed. He should be in jail for that alone because most self defense laws require equal force in most cases.
What if I'm a single person or household, trying to protect myself against an band of assaulters? I have one gun and they have 50, it isn't equal force either. I'll need a bigger gun, mounted on an armored vehicle.

If I'm on my private property, why can't I adequately protect myself?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quincy View Post
Well, the government has an vested interest in protecting the population and growing it. We need a private sector workforce for many reasons. There are certain limited things the government has to do and it needs the funds to do them. You can tie this in with abortion too, because of limiting population growth.
That's another argument for fascism, not personal liberty.

Similarly, the government has a vested interest in not having an obese population. Can the government legislate what and how much you can eat?

------------------------
In general, it seems to me that you are against a centralized federal government, but not necessarily a libertarian. If your state or county passed laws limiting personal liberty based on the whim of the majority, you would be fine with it...





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organiccornflake organiccornflake is offline
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March 29th, 2012, 02:55 PM

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Originally Posted by Granite View Post
Probably would. Since I don't think the private sector (whatever you mean by this) should do "whatever they want" (who is "they"?) you're asking me a question about something I didn't say.Back to you. Please stick to what I actually write, not what you imagine I have.

You seem to think, like every other nanny stater, that people can't make their own choices or at least can't be trusted with them. That's just the same run of the mill meddlesome crap every other intrusive bureaucrat favors, no matter what their party. You big government evangelicals are no different.
By "whatever they want," i was obviously referring to the things you wish legalized under your "do want you want, as long as it doesn't harm anybody else" belief.

Since you yourself admitted that the country would collapse under such change in legislature, then why do you still defend it? Do you want America to die?





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March 29th, 2012, 03:10 PM

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By "whatever they want," i was obviously referring to the things you wish legalized under your "do want you want, as long as it doesn't harm anybody else" belief.
That's roughly what I believe but you don't seem to really understand it or understand much else of what I've posted on this thread.

Quote:
Since you yourself admitted that the country would collapse under such change in legislature...
I think you meant legislation. Not sure.

Quote:
...then why do you still defend it? Do you want America to die?
I don't. Free advice: go back and actually read my posts, not what you think I said. I've been getting this a lot lately. I have no idea why some of you seem incredibly dense, or mystified by what I write, or think you need to read between the lines. Go back and read what I said, not what you imagined. Otherwise don't bother responding to me. Deal?





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March 30th, 2012, 12:15 PM

How do you feel about the legality of the following:

Recreational drug use (crack/meth/heroin etc) - Yes
Prostitution - Yes
Polygamy - Yes
Public nudity - No
Network TV displaying porn or explicit language - No
Bestiality - No
Pedophilia - NO NO NO
Dueling, death matches - No
Selling your own organs - Yes
Selling guardianship of your children - No
Selling yourself as a slave - Yes? Honestly never heard of this one
Racial discrimination in the private sector - No
Racial discrimination in the public sector - No
Hate propaganda - Not sure
Terrorism how-to manuals - Depends
Incest - No
Owning/Developing weapons of mass destruction - No
Insider trading - No
Monopolies on vital resources (like water, energy, etc) - No



   
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organiccornflake organiccornflake is offline
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March 30th, 2012, 01:46 PM

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Originally Posted by Granite View Post
It'd have to be a gradual process (if at all) and methadone clinics and the like would have to be in place.
ed.
In this post, you said you wanted drugs (among other despicable things) legalized. You then went on to say that such legalization would destroy America over time. You then went on to say that you didn't want America to collapse. Pick a side.





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HisServant HisServant is offline
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March 30th, 2012, 01:55 PM

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Originally Posted by mighty_duck View Post
How do you feel about the legality of the following:

Recreational drug use (crack/meth/heroin etc).
Prostitution
Polygamy
Public nudity
Network TV displaying porn or explicit language
Bestiality
Pedophilia
Dueling, death matches
Selling your own organs
Selling guardianship of your children
Selling yourself as a slave
Racial discrimination in the private sector
Racial discrimination in the public sector
Hate propaganda
Terrorism how-to manuals
Incest
Owning/Developing weapons of mass destruction
Insider trading
Monopolies on vital resources (like water, energy, etc)
In other words, you want the government to take the place of a good parent?



   
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Granite Granite is online now
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March 30th, 2012, 02:18 PM

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Originally Posted by organiccornflake View Post
In this post, you said you wanted drugs (among other despicable things) legalized. You then went on to say that such legalization would destroy America over time. You then went on to say that you didn't want America to collapse. Pick a side.
I didn't say I wanted heroin legalized; I said if we were to contemplate legalization it'd need to be a gradual process complete with clinics. If you can point out a post of mine where I said anything along the lines of "this'll destroy America," feel free, but I don't know where you got this idea.





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March 30th, 2012, 02:33 PM

There is only one real law - and that is karma.

This desire to control people by force, manifesting as legal systems, is nothing but cow dung.





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March 30th, 2012, 03:08 PM

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Originally Posted by HisServant View Post
In other words, you want the government to take the place of a good parent?
I asked a question. Am I to understand you want ALL of those things to be legal, because anything less is to be babied by the government?





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April 1st, 2012, 11:18 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Granite View Post
I didn't say I wanted heroin legalized; I said if we were to contemplate legalization it'd need to be a gradual process complete with clinics.
Oh. my apologies then. You were giving your oppinions on the legalization on several areas, and you didnt deny the legalization of heroin, so I assumed you were for it.

Quote:
If you can point out a post of mine where I said anything along the lines of "this'll destroy America," feel free, but I don't know where you got this idea.
I said this...
Do you really not see that the "private" Sector would fall apart if permitted to do whatever they wanted [refering to drugs]?

Then you said this...
Probably would.





Before you judge someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, if it turns out they are right and get mad at you, they are a mile away and barefoot.
   
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