TheologyOnline, religion, politics, forum
Go Back   Theology Online | Christian Forums & More > Politics, Religion, And The Rest > Religion > Exclusively Christian Theology
Reload this Page ECT: Real Calvinism 4
Exclusively Christian Theology This forum is exclusively for those who consider themselves Christian and consider the Bible to be the inspired word of God.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  (#1) Old
Brother Ducky Brother Ducky is offline
Over 500 post club
 Brother Ducky's Avatar

 


Reputation:
Brother Ducky is making a name for themselvesBrother Ducky is making a name for themselvesBrother Ducky is making a name for themselvesBrother Ducky is making a name for themselvesBrother Ducky is making a name for themselvesBrother Ducky is making a name for themselvesBrother Ducky is making a name for themselves
Real Calvinism 4 - April 14th, 2012, 03:04 PM

There are multiple threads here regarding Calvinism. Most start with incorrect premises about Calvinist [Reformed] thought. I think if we want to discuss any system of thought we should begin with "official" ideas, not what one thinks about the system. The below is from the Westminster Shorter Catechism, one of the "official" statements of Reformed thought.

Q. 4. What is God?
A. God is a Spirit,[7] infinite,[8] eternal,[9] and unchangeable,[10] in his being,[11] wisdom,[12] power,[13] holiness,[14] justice,[15] goodness,[16] and truth.[17]
[7] Deuteronomy 4:15-19. Luke 24:39. John 1:18.. John 4:24. Acts 17:29.
[8] 1 Kings 8:27. Psalm 145:3. Psalm 147:5. Jeremiah 23:24. Romans 11:33-36.
[9] Deuteronomy 33:27. Psalm 102:12, 24-27. Revelation 1:4, 8.
[10] Psalm 33:11. Malachi 3:6. Hebrews 1:12. Hebrews 6:17-18. Hebrews 13:8. James 1:17.
[11] Exodus 3:14.. Psalm 115:2-3. 1 Timothy 1:17. 1 Timothy 6:15-16
[12] Psalm 104:24. Romans 11:33-34. Hebrews 4:13. 1 John 3:20.
[13 Genesis 17:1. Psalm 62:11. Jeremiah 32:17. Matthew 19:26. Revelation 1:8.
[14] Hebrews 1:13. 1 Peter 1:15-16. 1 John 3:3, 5. Revelation 15:4.
[15] Genesis 18:25. Exodus 34:6-7. Deuteronomy 32:4. Romans 3:5, 26.
[16] Psalm 103:5. Psalm 107:8. Matthew 19:7. Romans 2:4.
[17] Exodus 34:6. Deuteronomy 32:4. Psalm 86:15. Psalm 117:2. Hebrews 6:18.

What do you think about this part of Calvinism?



   
Reply With Quote
  (#2) Old
themuzicman themuzicman is offline
Over 4000 post club
 themuzicman's Avatar

 


Reputation:
themuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peers
April 14th, 2012, 07:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Ducky View Post
There are multiple threads here regarding Calvinism. Most start with incorrect premises about Calvinist [Reformed] thought. I think if we want to discuss any system of thought we should begin with "official" ideas, not what one thinks about the system. The below is from the Westminster Shorter Catechism, one of the "official" statements of Reformed thought.

Q. 4. What is God?
A. God is a Spirit,[7] infinite,[8] eternal,[9] and unchangeable,[10] in his being,[11] wisdom,[12] power,[13] holiness,[14] justice,[15] goodness,[16] and truth.[17]
[7] Deuteronomy 4:15-19. Luke 24:39. John 1:18.. John 4:24. Acts 17:29.
[8] 1 Kings 8:27. Psalm 145:3. Psalm 147:5. Jeremiah 23:24. Romans 11:33-36.
[9] Deuteronomy 33:27. Psalm 102:12, 24-27. Revelation 1:4, 8.
[10] Psalm 33:11. Malachi 3:6. Hebrews 1:12. Hebrews 6:17-18. Hebrews 13:8. James 1:17.
[11] Exodus 3:14.. Psalm 115:2-3. 1 Timothy 1:17. 1 Timothy 6:15-16
[12] Psalm 104:24. Romans 11:33-34. Hebrews 4:13. 1 John 3:20.
[13 Genesis 17:1. Psalm 62:11. Jeremiah 32:17. Matthew 19:26. Revelation 1:8.
[14] Hebrews 1:13. 1 Peter 1:15-16. 1 John 3:3, 5. Revelation 15:4.
[15] Genesis 18:25. Exodus 34:6-7. Deuteronomy 32:4. Romans 3:5, 26.
[16] Psalm 103:5. Psalm 107:8. Matthew 19:7. Romans 2:4.
[17] Exodus 34:6. Deuteronomy 32:4. Psalm 86:15. Psalm 117:2. Hebrews 6:18.

What do you think about this part of Calvinism?
This part of Calvinism fails in that it over reaches some of its proof texts, especially those regarding absolute immutability, and ignores (by unwarranted anthropomorphism) where God changes His mind (Exo 32) or has a change in emotions (Gen 6). Certainly God does not age, and He does not violate His covenants or His decrees. But these are the extent to which Scripture describes God in this respect.

Also, Calvinists often describes God's eternity as being timeless. However, there are scriptural issues with this claim, as well. Especially with creation. If God does not experience some kind of a passage of time, then He cannot create.





I don't care how systematic your theology is, until you show me how biblical it is.

2 Tim 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
   
Reply With Quote
  (#3) Old
Nang Nang is offline
TOL Subscriber
 Nang's Avatar

 



Reputation:
Nang is well respected by his peers
Nang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peers
April 14th, 2012, 07:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by themuzicman View Post
This part of Calvinism fails in that it over reaches some of its proof texts, especially those regarding absolute immutability, and ignores (by unwarranted anthropomorphism) where God changes His mind (Exo 32) or has a change in emotions (Gen 6). Certainly God does not age, and He does not violate His covenants or His decrees. But these are the extent to which Scripture describes God in this respect.

Also, Calvinists often describes God's eternity as being timeless. However, there are scriptural issues with this claim, as well. Especially with creation. If God does not experience some kind of a passage of time, then He cannot create.
Why?

Why do you think creation was ever dependent upon time? Why would you say that God ever "passaged" or is ever needful to "experience" in any way, shape, or form?

Why?

Nang





"The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

"Experience teaches us nothing; revelation teaches all we need to know."

“ Those who proclaim that the sovereignty of God determines what justice is, (do so) by observing what God actually does. Whatever God does is just.”


. . . Gordon H. Clark
   
Reply With Quote
  (#4) Old
Brother Ducky Brother Ducky is offline
Over 500 post club
 Brother Ducky's Avatar

 


Reputation:
Brother Ducky is making a name for themselvesBrother Ducky is making a name for themselvesBrother Ducky is making a name for themselvesBrother Ducky is making a name for themselvesBrother Ducky is making a name for themselvesBrother Ducky is making a name for themselvesBrother Ducky is making a name for themselves
April 15th, 2012, 02:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by themuzicman View Post
This part of Calvinism fails in that it over reaches some of its proof texts, especially those regarding absolute immutability, and ignores (by unwarranted anthropomorphism) where God changes His mind (Exo 32) or has a change in emotions (Gen 6). Certainly God does not age, and He does not violate His covenants or His decrees. But these are the extent to which Scripture describes God in this respect.

Also, Calvinists often describes God's eternity as being timeless. However, there are scriptural issues with this claim, as well. Especially with creation. If God does not experience some kind of a passage of time, then He cannot create.
Well, I suspect that any collection of proof texts will tend to have some overreaching if more than a minimal amount of verses are used. But the texts are from a bunch of people a lot smarter than I am, so I tend to allow some leeway in criticizing their choices, which might be different than mine.

So, if I understand you correctly, you wish to argue that God is mutable and not eternal [in some sense]. I am not convinced that God has to experience some kind of a passage of time to create. From creation's standpoint, there was a time before, and a time after creation, but I am not sure that is the same for God. If God does not age, I do not know what kind of time he experiences.

Do I basically understand your objections? But I gather that you would agree with most of the major categories the Assembly found God self-describing.

Peace,
Rick



   
Reply With Quote
  (#5) Old
themuzicman themuzicman is offline
Over 4000 post club
 themuzicman's Avatar

 


Reputation:
themuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peers
April 16th, 2012, 10:26 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Ducky View Post
Well, I suspect that any collection of proof texts will tend to have some overreaching if more than a minimal amount of verses are used. But the texts are from a bunch of people a lot smarter than I am, so I tend to allow some leeway in criticizing their choices, which might be different than mine.
I prefer to engage in critical thought, rather than blindly accepting whatever is set before me.

Quote:
So, if I understand you correctly, you wish to argue that God is mutable and not eternal [in some sense].
You'll have to be clearer about the term "eternal." I say that God is eternal, but that He is also active in that He creates, He changes His mind, etc.

Quote:
I am not convinced that God has to experience some kind of a passage of time to create. From creation's standpoint, there was a time before, and a time after creation, but I am not sure that is the same for God. If God does not age, I do not know what kind of time he experiences.
How can there be a time before time without time? "Before" is a temporal term. It cannot be used if there is no time of some kind.

Quote:
Do I basically understand your objections? But I gather that you would agree with most of the major categories the Assembly found God self-describing.
Most of the categories you presented were without controversy and generally accepted.





I don't care how systematic your theology is, until you show me how biblical it is.

2 Tim 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
   
Reply With Quote
  (#6) Old
themuzicman themuzicman is offline
Over 4000 post club
 themuzicman's Avatar

 


Reputation:
themuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peers
April 16th, 2012, 10:29 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nang View Post
Why?

Why do you think creation was ever dependent upon time? Why would you say that God ever "passaged" or is ever needful to "experience" in any way, shape, or form?

Why?

Nang
We believe that God created ex nihilo, from nothing. Thus, before creation exists, there must be some kind of nothingness that exists. The term 'before' is a temporal term that only makes sense when there is some time of time.

If there is no 'before' with God, the creation must either be timelessly co-existent with God (which means that it is another god), or a part of God himself, making the adherent a process theist. I find both unacceptable.





I don't care how systematic your theology is, until you show me how biblical it is.

2 Tim 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
   
Reply With Quote
  (#7) Old
zippy2006 zippy2006 is offline
Over 5000 post club
 zippy2006's Avatar

 



Reputation:
zippy2006 is well respected by his peers
zippy2006 is well respected by his peerszippy2006 is well respected by his peerszippy2006 is well respected by his peerszippy2006 is well respected by his peerszippy2006 is well respected by his peerszippy2006 is well respected by his peerszippy2006 is well respected by his peerszippy2006 is well respected by his peerszippy2006 is well respected by his peerszippy2006 is well respected by his peers
April 16th, 2012, 10:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by themuzicman View Post
Thus, before creation exists, there must be some kind of nothingness that exists.
Quote:
If there is no 'before' with God, the creation must either be timelessly co-existent with God (which means that it is another god)
This "nothingness" that you believe existed before creation is actually co-existent with God, therefore being what you call "another god."





"If a sheerly linguistic version of the gospel could be concocted, it would merely so be no longer the gospel. In the Lutheran Reformation’s understanding, which we believe in this matter to be correct, the sacraments make the inalienable externality of the gospel message and therefore are necessary to the authenticity of that message." (Christian Dogmatics [1984], II:302-303 as cited in Pontifications)

-Falsity of OSAS
   
Reply With Quote
  (#8) Old
themuzicman themuzicman is offline
Over 4000 post club
 themuzicman's Avatar

 


Reputation:
themuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peers
April 16th, 2012, 10:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by zippy2006 View Post
This "nothingness" that you believe existed before creation is actually co-existent with God, therefore being what you call "another god."
If it were actually a thing, then you'd have a point. But nothingness points to a lack of existence, so, you don't.





I don't care how systematic your theology is, until you show me how biblical it is.

2 Tim 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
   
Reply With Quote
  (#9) Old
zippy2006 zippy2006 is offline
Over 5000 post club
 zippy2006's Avatar

 



Reputation:
zippy2006 is well respected by his peers
zippy2006 is well respected by his peerszippy2006 is well respected by his peerszippy2006 is well respected by his peerszippy2006 is well respected by his peerszippy2006 is well respected by his peerszippy2006 is well respected by his peerszippy2006 is well respected by his peerszippy2006 is well respected by his peerszippy2006 is well respected by his peerszippy2006 is well respected by his peers
April 16th, 2012, 10:57 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by themuzicman View Post
If it were actually a thing, then you'd have a point. But nothingness points to a lack of existence, so, you don't.
Odd considering this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by themuzicman View Post
Thus, before creation exists, there must be some kind of nothingness that exists.





"If a sheerly linguistic version of the gospel could be concocted, it would merely so be no longer the gospel. In the Lutheran Reformation’s understanding, which we believe in this matter to be correct, the sacraments make the inalienable externality of the gospel message and therefore are necessary to the authenticity of that message." (Christian Dogmatics [1984], II:302-303 as cited in Pontifications)

-Falsity of OSAS
   
Reply With Quote
  (#10) Old
themuzicman themuzicman is offline
Over 4000 post club
 themuzicman's Avatar

 


Reputation:
themuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peers
April 16th, 2012, 10:59 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by zippy2006 View Post
Odd considering this:
Why is that? A state of nothingness means that nothing is there. The existence of nothing means that there is nothing.

What's confusing about that?





I don't care how systematic your theology is, until you show me how biblical it is.

2 Tim 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
   
Reply With Quote
  (#11) Old
Nang Nang is offline
TOL Subscriber
 Nang's Avatar

 



Reputation:
Nang is well respected by his peers
Nang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peers
April 16th, 2012, 01:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by themuzicman View Post
Why is that? A state of nothingness means that nothing is there. The existence of nothing means that there is nothing.

What's confusing about that?



"Nothing" and "Exist" are mutually exclusive.

There is a Godly being that transcends both terms.

Try "Infinite."

Nang





"The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

"Experience teaches us nothing; revelation teaches all we need to know."

“ Those who proclaim that the sovereignty of God determines what justice is, (do so) by observing what God actually does. Whatever God does is just.”


. . . Gordon H. Clark
   
Reply With Quote
  (#12) Old
themuzicman themuzicman is offline
Over 4000 post club
 themuzicman's Avatar

 


Reputation:
themuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peers
April 16th, 2012, 01:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nang View Post


"Nothing" and "Exist" are mutually exclusive.

There is a Godly being that transcends both terms.

Try "Infinite."

Nang
(Translation: I can't answer the post that was presented to me, so I'll post something incomprehensible to try to change the subject.)





I don't care how systematic your theology is, until you show me how biblical it is.

2 Tim 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
   
Reply With Quote
  (#13) Old
Nang Nang is offline
TOL Subscriber
 Nang's Avatar

 



Reputation:
Nang is well respected by his peers
Nang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peers
April 16th, 2012, 01:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by themuzicman View Post
(Translation: I can't answer the post that was presented to me, so I'll post something incomprehensible to try to change the subject.)
I am disappointed you did not think about my suggestion for any decent amount of time.





"The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

"Experience teaches us nothing; revelation teaches all we need to know."

“ Those who proclaim that the sovereignty of God determines what justice is, (do so) by observing what God actually does. Whatever God does is just.”


. . . Gordon H. Clark
   
Reply With Quote
  (#14) Old
themuzicman themuzicman is offline
Over 4000 post club
 themuzicman's Avatar

 


Reputation:
themuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peers
April 16th, 2012, 03:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nang View Post
I am disappointed you did not think about my suggestion for any decent amount of time.
There was nothing to think about. Never said God wasn't infinite.

But that doesn't change the fact that for God to create, He must experience the passage of some kind of time.





I don't care how systematic your theology is, until you show me how biblical it is.

2 Tim 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
   
Reply With Quote
  (#15) Old
Nang Nang is offline
TOL Subscriber
 Nang's Avatar

 



Reputation:
Nang is well respected by his peers
Nang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peers
April 16th, 2012, 03:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by themuzicman View Post
There was nothing to think about. Never said God wasn't infinite.

But that doesn't change the fact that for God to create, He must experience the passage of some kind of time.
Why?

If creation appeared ex nihilo according to divine decrees, will, and commands of God, of what necessity time, except to manifest creational temporality and the purposes (glory) of God?





"The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

"Experience teaches us nothing; revelation teaches all we need to know."

“ Those who proclaim that the sovereignty of God determines what justice is, (do so) by observing what God actually does. Whatever God does is just.”


. . . Gordon H. Clark
   
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Skin developed by: vBStyles.com
Copyright ©1997-2014 TheologyOnLine



Logos Bible Study Software Up to 15% OFF FOR THEOLOGYONLINE MEMBERS! Study twice, post once.
Logos Bible Software —take your Bible study to the next level.