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April 16th, 2012, 10:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by themuzicman View Post
OK, maybe I was unclear (and of course any open view thread gets derailed by the usual suspects, even when it is an internal discussion.)

I saw Knight's response, and that's the general view of open theism (that God created in such a way that the definite course of the future is unknowable).

But I heard (which is what I'm trying to verify) that some open theists (Enyart was mentioned) say that God simply veils Himself from knowledge of the future in a similar manner to how Christ veiled Himself from His omni-abilities when here on earth.

So, that's the core of the question. Godrulz said one thing, knight another...

(Sorry for the delay in responding... I spent the weekend upgrading to snow leopard and then downloading patches... *sigh*)
I think Pastor Enyart would say the future does not exist. Thus it is not that God chooses not to know.





Where is the evidence for a global flood?
Why do my eyes hurt?
You've never used them.

"...the waters under the "expanse" were under the crust."
-Bob B.

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April 16th, 2012, 10:40 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by themuzicman View Post
But I heard (which is what I'm trying to verify) that some open theists (Enyart was mentioned) say that God simply veils Himself from knowledge of the future in a similar manner to how Christ veiled Himself from His omni-abilities when here on earth.
I can guarantee that is not what Bob Enyart thinks and or teaches. Maybe there was some type of misunderstanding.





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April 16th, 2012, 10:44 AM

Must be. Ok, I'll accept that.





I don't care how systematic your theology is, until you show me how biblical it is.

2 Tim 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
   
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April 16th, 2012, 02:26 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nang View Post
That would be Sky, not me.

Ng
As far as God's Sovereignty goes the Bible proves the past, historically and tells the future. Salvation and God's Sovereignty is a personal matter you can believe it or not for an individual. I don't know why you want to go against me. I don't poke a stick at it for the individual or seek to understand or predict the future outside of the Bible like some do.



   
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April 16th, 2012, 03:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by themuzicman View Post
OK, maybe I was unclear (and of course any open view thread gets derailed by the usual suspects, even when it is an internal discussion.)

I saw Knight's response, and that's the general view of open theism (that God created in such a way that the definite course of the future is unknowable).

But I heard (which is what I'm trying to verify) that some open theists (Enyart was mentioned) say that God simply veils Himself from knowledge of the future in a similar manner to how Christ veiled Himself from His omni-abilities when here on earth.

So, that's the core of the question. Godrulz said one thing, knight another...

(Sorry for the delay in responding... I spent the weekend upgrading to snow leopard and then downloading patches... *sigh*)
Technical proofs, theology, philosophy have weight on this issue. I don't think the caveat of knows what He wants to know when He wants to know it is defensible from Open Theism standards (easier for critics to shoot down than 'knows all that is knowable').





Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

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April 16th, 2012, 03:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight View Post
I can guarantee that is not what Bob Enyart thinks and or teaches. Maybe there was some type of misunderstanding.
Some on TOL are adding to the basic Open Theism understanding and I thought they got it from Hill or Enyart. I guess we need to produce the quotes.





Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

"No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.
   
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April 16th, 2012, 03:12 PM

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Originally Posted by rainee View Post
But God knowing - how could there be prophecy if God didn't know?
Because God can bring things to pass, He is that powerful.

But a better question is....

What is the point of prophecy in the first place? God says He gives prophecy so that when it comes to pass we might be compelled to believe He is who He says He is. If that is the case, then the future cannot be settled as God would not need to attempt to convince anyone of anything. People would either be destined to believe or not to believe, no convincing necessary.

Furthermore... if prophecy existed merely because God had "seen" the outcome why would there be prophecy that didn't come to pass? Did God lie?

Of course not!

Prophecy is rock solid proof that the future is open and not settled.





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April 16th, 2012, 03:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
Some on TOL are adding to the basic Open Theism understanding and I thought they got it from Hill or Enyart. I guess we need to produce the quotes.
You were/are wrong.

Not to be blunt... but there is no other way to say it.





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April 16th, 2012, 03:14 PM

Oh and rainee thanks for reminding me... Nang never responded to my question for her.

Thanks for giving it time.





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April 16th, 2012, 03:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight View Post
Because God can bring things to pass, He is that powerful.

But a better question is....

What is the point of prophecy in the first place? God says He gives prophecy so that when it comes to pass we might be compelled to believe He is who He says He is. If that is the case, then the future cannot be settled as God would not need to attempt to convince anyone of anything. People would either be destined to believe or not to believe, no convincing necessary.

Furthermore... if prophecy existed merely because God had "seen" the outcome why would there be prophecy that didn't come to pass? Did God lie?

Of course not!

Prophecy is rock solid proof that the future is open and not settled.
What prophecy didn't come to pass? The Bible the written word of God exists to prove prophecy. You believe it... the Bible... or you don't.
What are you waiting for?



   
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April 16th, 2012, 03:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight View Post
Oh and rainee thanks for reminding me... Nang never responded to my question for her.
I didn't?

The reason we read prophecy in the word of God, is because God is a Covenantal God and all the prophecies are covenant promises from God.

Over and over God predicts and promises justice, grace, and The Savior in both the Old Testament and New. God does not interact with mankind apart from covenant.

Nang





"The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

"Experience teaches us nothing; revelation teaches all we need to know."

“ Those who proclaim that the sovereignty of God determines what justice is, (do so) by observing what God actually does. Whatever God does is just.”


. . . Gordon H. Clark
   
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April 16th, 2012, 04:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sky. View Post
What prophecy didn't come to pass? The Bible the written word of God exists to prove prophecy. You believe it... the Bible... or you don't.
What are you waiting for?
If I listed all the prophecies in the Bible that didn't come to pass would it make a difference? Would you care?





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April 16th, 2012, 04:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nang View Post
I'm sorry Nang. I didn't see that.

I apologize.

Now I will go read it. Thanks.





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April 16th, 2012, 04:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nang View Post
No.

Such a consideration would deny the omnipotence and sovereignty of God.
That is an interesting difference in our beliefs.

Regarding each other's views....
I can say "God could". While you say "God couldn't".

Yet it's always the Calvinists that claim open theists limit God.

Either way.... thank you for the direct answer.





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April 16th, 2012, 07:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight View Post
If I listed all the prophecies in the Bible that didn't come to pass would it make a difference? Would you care?
4 me? Yes. I care, however, I see a difference between 1) conditional promises, 2) unconditional promises 3) prophecy and 4) negotiation.

Most of what passes for unfullfilled prophecy, is, in my estimation, conditional promise and not in fact, prophecy at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lon

We will disagree but I want to take time again and mention I'm thankful for your hard questions. I never want to be sloppy or lazy when it comes to Our Lord and Savior.





Omniscient without man's say or qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
No possible limitation other than in man's wishful finite inanity Isaiah
40:25 Joshua 24:15
Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

Is Calvinism okay? Yep

Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. *************************************

Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
   
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