TheologyOnline, religion, politics, forum
Go Back   Theology Online | Christian Forums & More > Politics, Religion, And The Rest > Religion > Exclusively Christian Theology
Reload this Page ECT: Ephesians 2:8: Don't play it again Mr. MuzicMan
Exclusively Christian Theology This forum is exclusively for those who consider themselves Christian and consider the Bible to be the inspired word of God.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  (#31) Old
genuineoriginal genuineoriginal is online now
TOL Legend
 genuineoriginal's Avatar

 


Reputation:
genuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peers
April 27th, 2012, 11:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colossians View Post
I am aware that you are aware that I have defeated you.
What is pathetic is that you are the only one that is unaware that the only one you have defeated is yourself.





Learn to read what is written.
   
Reply With Quote
  (#32) Old
Colossians Colossians is offline
Over 6000 post club

 


Reputation:
Colossians has been getting noticedColossians has been getting noticedColossians has been getting noticedColossians has been getting noticedColossians has been getting noticedColossians has been getting noticed
April 28th, 2012, 02:16 AM

bling,

verse 9 which says: “not by works, so that no one can boast.” ...... just look at verse 9. If “faith” were the gift then Paul is telling us faith cannot be worked for [which is illogical]
You're another one who thinks he's more capable than he is.

The works Paul is referring to at v9, which he contrasts with the gift he has just mentioned at v8, are the works of the law.

And so he says elsewhere:

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." Rom 11:6

And so:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" Rom 4:16

where in his subsuming of faith under grace, he confirms what we have said in the OP.

Furthermore, your idea that the "works" of v9 would have to (illogically) mean "work for faith" if the faith of v8 were "the gift", is silly, for you provide no alternative rendering for "works" anyway!

If it doesn't refer to the works of the law (which you imply by declaring that it must of necessity (illogically) refer to working for faith if faith is indeed "the gift"), then what does it refer to? Alternatively, if it does refer to the works of the law (which it does) then how does it conflict with the fact that faith is a gift?

So your logic is something like your theology.

And so off you go to spend a few days in Romans 2-7 and Galatians 2 and 3. And don't come back until you have done so.




Last edited by Colossians; April 28th, 2012 at 08:34 AM..
   
Reply With Quote
  (#33) Old
genuineoriginal genuineoriginal is online now
TOL Legend
 genuineoriginal's Avatar

 


Reputation:
genuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peers
April 28th, 2012, 08:16 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colossians View Post
the fact that faith is a gift
You have been soundly refuted on that point, so your refusal to accept it proves that you lack any real intelligence.





Learn to read what is written.
   
Reply With Quote
  (#34) Old
Zeke Zeke is offline
Over 3000 post club
 Zeke's Avatar

 


Reputation:
Zeke is well respected by his peersZeke is well respected by his peersZeke is well respected by his peersZeke is well respected by his peersZeke is well respected by his peersZeke is well respected by his peersZeke is well respected by his peersZeke is well respected by his peersZeke is well respected by his peersZeke is well respected by his peersZeke is well respected by his peersZeke is well respected by his peersZeke is well respected by his peers
April 29th, 2012, 08:36 AM

Plenty of scripture that refers to God opening and shutting ears and and eyes John 12:40, Romans 11:8, the open view can't handle a Soveriegn God muchless a unmerited salvation Romans 9:15-18.

Luke 22:32-35 KJV shows mans faith is weak and had no power to maintain the hearts boast which is from the flesh, "just like the open veiw is" and denigns the natural state of man before God wills it differently, Ephesians 2:2-3, John 2:24-25.

Romans 11:33-35 still stands, the open view is built on sand.



   
Reply With Quote
  (#35) Old
genuineoriginal genuineoriginal is online now
TOL Legend
 genuineoriginal's Avatar

 


Reputation:
genuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peers
April 29th, 2012, 09:57 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Plenty of scripture that refers to God opening and shutting ears and and eyes John 12:40, Romans 11:8, the open view can't handle a Soveriegn God muchless a unmerited salvation Romans 9:15-18.

Luke 22:32-35 KJV shows mans faith is weak and had no power to maintain the hearts boast which is from the flesh, "just like the open veiw is" and denigns the natural state of man before God wills it differently, Ephesians 2:2-3, John 2:24-25.

Romans 11:33-35 still stands, the open view is built on sand.
Those verses prove what I have been saying in this thread, but your interpretation that the verses disprove Open Theism is lacking.





Learn to read what is written.
   
Reply With Quote
  (#36) Old
chatmaggot chatmaggot is offline
Silver Member
 chatmaggot's Avatar

 




Reputation:
chatmaggot is well respected by his peers
chatmaggot is well respected by his peerschatmaggot is well respected by his peerschatmaggot is well respected by his peerschatmaggot is well respected by his peerschatmaggot is well respected by his peerschatmaggot is well respected by his peerschatmaggot is well respected by his peerschatmaggot is well respected by his peerschatmaggot is well respected by his peerschatmaggot is well respected by his peerschatmaggot is well respected by his peerschatmaggot is well respected by his peerschatmaggot is well respected by his peerschatmaggot is well respected by his peers
April 29th, 2012, 04:56 PM

It looks like Colossians still has yet to learn how to use the "QUOTE" button. I guess he likes it that way. When people use the quote button on him for something he has written, he can always claim that that wasn't him who said it...but he was simply quoting someone else...but he just didn't use the "QUOTE" button.





fidelis usque ad mortem
   
Reply With Quote
  (#37) Old
themuzicman themuzicman is offline
Over 4000 post club
 themuzicman's Avatar

 


Reputation:
themuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peers
April 30th, 2012, 07:02 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colossians View Post
Muzic,


The phrase “through faith” is integral to the main idea: the demonstrative “that” which immediately follows “saved through faith” doesn’t get to cherry pick so that it might merely point back to “saved....”: by default it points back to the complete thought it has followed, “saved through faith”.
You make this claim, and yet you provide nothing to back it up.
One of us knows biblical Greek. You don't. TBH, I've been trying to tolerate your errors in trying to explain them to you, but you seem to have your mind made up in spite of the facts.

You are engaging in special pleading by claiming that the demonstrative includes one prepositional phrase and not the other.

You have also ignored the context, which is clearly pointed at God's grace and not our faith.

So, your errors are many.


Quote:
If I say: “For I provided you with the message through your desire to learn, and that was not of yourself, but a gift I gave to you."
1. The meaning you are trying to fabricate is ridiculously redundant:

"I provided something for you which was not provided by you but by me".
This only exposes the fact that you don't read your bible without Calvinist colored glasses. Biblical authors use repetition and redundancy to make a point. You may call Scripture writers ridiculous (and that wouldn't be out of character for a Calvinist), but I do not.

The fact is that the errors in your analogy are apparent, and even YOU could not defend it, so all you can do is to try to attack mine.

I want everyone to notice that I have a response to anything substantive that Collosians has to say, but Collosians conveniently ignores all the points that he loses.

Quote:
(But) In fact your "that" is naturally taken to be referring to "desire to learn", which promotes our rendering of Eph 2:8, not yours.
And the guy who cannot grasp Greek Grammar strikes again. Let me be perfectly clear: The demonstrative that cannot refer to faith. It is a violation of Greek Grammar.

Until you grasp this point, you're simply going to fail.

Quote:
3. You have introduced two distinct agents ("I" and "you"), thus presuming the premise you purport to prove.
Oh, there aren't two agents in Eph 2:8-9? Are you saying that God is saving Himself? Or that man is saving himself?

Quote:
But if you think I'm going to chase you down the infinite number of permutations and combinations of errors this skewed 'parallel' produces, you probably think you're intelligent.
Doesn't matter what I think. The fact that you are sputtering like this only exposes your inability to deal with it.

Quote:
We have pointed out that there is no need for Paul to say that being saved by grace is a gift, for grace is by definition a gift. So the demonstrative “that” necessarily refers to the extended thought (not merely “saved”, but “saved through faith”), otherwise we get your redundant: “For by the gift of God you are saved...., and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God”.
You may have tried to point that out, but you've ignored the fact that authors use redundancy to emphasize a point. You've also ignored the context of Eph 2, which is all about God's grace, and how we were in sin and under condemnation before God gave us eternal life. Only a Calvinist could take an entire section about grace and turn it into a proof text about faith.

Quote:
the pronoun there refers to the main idea: You are being saved.
Your “main idea” is another case of question begging: you define “main idea” as the mere verb “saved” instead of “saved through faith”.
Again, special pleading. You include one prepositional phrase and not the other.

Quote:
A verb on its own does not constitute a main idea: the idea presented constitutes a main idea. The idea presented is “saved through faith”.
Sorry, but you can say this a hundred times, but without a basis for the claim, you're just turning Oxygen into Carbon Dioxide. Especially given the level of special pleading you've ascended to.

The main idea, the subject and verb (incorporated in the verb and the participle), are what "that" points to. Without some other contextual clue (you know, like other local context that talks about faith), you're simply assuming your own conclusion.

Not valid.

Quote:
So in “by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves”, “that” does not merely refer back to the verb “saved”, but to the idea “saved through faith”.
Special pleading, assuming the conclusion. Invalid logic.

Quote:
As I have said, the demonstrative does not get to cherry pick by referring only to the "saved" part of "saved through faith": it is necessarily indiscriminate by default, incorporating not only the verb, but the extended verb phrase (verb + adverb phrase) which precedes it.
LOL.. You seriously need to learn ENGLISH before you learn GREEK. "Through faith" is a PREPOSITIONAL PHRASE, not an adverb.

Goodness.... Your obsession with holding on to your invalid exegesis has really pushed you off the edge.

Quote:
Paul's extension emphasizes that it is by grace by calling it a gift.
Rather, once again you are attempting to shift the focus from the logic issue.
The logic issue is your special pleading and assuming the conclusion. Calling grace a gift only emphasizes that it is not earned by works, which is what Paul is saying in this section.

Quote:
Your rendering produces the redundant:

“For by the gift of God you are saved, and that not of yourself, it is the gift of God”.

There is a natural limit to emphasis. Beyond that limit one is no longer emphasising, but being an idiot. God and Paul were no idiots, and didn’t speak to people as if they were.
Calling grace a gift after an entire paragraph of making that point is just emphasis. It's a time tested literary device. And, in Greek, this is how they did it.

Again, your complete lack of education regarding biblical Greek is evident.

Quote:
We don’t need to be told that being saved by grace is a gift, for grace itself infers “gift”. In fact, this is the very (logical) criterion which tells us that the gift of necessity refers primarily to the additional thought introduced in "through faith".
Except that people do. That's a very "natural man" thing to do: to want to earn grace or somehow work to make up for it. Paul has to address this with multiple groups, including the Romans in chapter 4.

Indeed, most religions are works based, so coming into Christianity, the idea that one does nothing to appease or merit salvation would be quite foreign, and many would need that very instruction.

So, once again, your inability to understand basic exegesis exposes your faulty reasoning.

Quote:
And so the demonstrative “that” is applied to the complete “saved through faith” which precedes it, and that by virtue of the fact that once the additional thought “through faith” is appended to “saved by grace”, the overall result can tend to distract the reader from the initially-stated “by grace”; thus the need to follow up with the notion that the whole thing – the whole kit cat and caboodle - is by grace.
Again, you run back to your special pleading and assuming the conclusion.

Quote:
Thus elsewhere:

“Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace” Rom 4:16
You're only making my point.

Quote:
Concluding

I am aware that you are aware that I have defeated you.
AH, an early sign that one knows one is defeated.. .the unsubstantiated claim of victory. LOL.

Quote:
You are simply at this point relying on the possibility that those who are not confident in this sort of analysis will be duped by your synthetic confidence.
If you want to call masters level education including biblical Greek "synthetic."

Quote:
But I am confident I have said enough to convince the visitors to the thread of both your error and creativity. I have no more time for you.
Finally tired of having your butt kicked. OK.

Quote:
Be warned that if you attempt to bring this false rendering up again in the future on another thread, I shall shoot you and your Mickey Mouse exegesis down again just as conclusively as I have done here.
And the ad hominem. The most begrudging (and satisfying) admission of defeat.





I don't care how systematic your theology is, until you show me how biblical it is.

2 Tim 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
   
Reply With Quote
  (#38) Old
Colossians Colossians is offline
Over 6000 post club

 


Reputation:
Colossians has been getting noticedColossians has been getting noticedColossians has been getting noticedColossians has been getting noticedColossians has been getting noticedColossians has been getting noticed
April 30th, 2012, 06:33 PM

Muzic,


Calling grace a gift after an entire paragraph of making that point is just emphasis.
No, it is as I have said, redundant, and stupid, and in fact the central thing which defeats your idea.


What you are essentially doing is:

1. replacing the semi-colon at the first punctuation point with a colon, thus transforming a pause to an indicator of impending reiterative amplification
2. conflating the error of (1) with a replacement of “and that” with “it is”.
3. essentially deleting the appended thought “through faith”


So you are transforming:

“For by grace are ye saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God”

to

“By grace are ye saved: it is not of yourselves, but the gift of God.

If the latter were indeed what was stated, then your emphasis idea would be valid. But as I have shown, you have fundamentally restructured the clause so that it is now beyond recognition:

1. At the first point of punctuation we do not have your implied colon, but a semi-colon. So we do not have an indication of impending reiterative amplification, but simply a pause.
2. and that” which follows the semi-colon does not equate to “it is”. That is, and in line with (1), the conjunction does not indicate amplification of what is already said, but additional reasoning.

And commensurately, we have pointed out that, given the actual punctuation, your idea produces the idiotic interpretation:

“As a gift of God you are saved, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God”.

So you are defeated by virtue of:

1. The grammar
2. Logic

And as I have promised, if you bring your Mickey Mouse rendering of Eph 2:8 up again on another thread, I shall shoot you and Mickey down all over again.




Oh a just a little grammar for you in closing:

Your idea that “through faith” is not an adverbial phrase but a prepositional phrase (as though the two aspects here were mutually exclusive) again confirms you are a pretender and that your skill-level is rudimentary.

The phrase is prepositional according to form, but adverbial according to function: it is structurally prepositional, but adverbial on the syntagmatic axis.




Last edited by Colossians; April 30th, 2012 at 07:20 PM..
   
Reply With Quote
  (#39) Old
genuineoriginal genuineoriginal is online now
TOL Legend
 genuineoriginal's Avatar

 


Reputation:
genuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peersgenuineoriginal is well respected by his peers
April 30th, 2012, 07:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colossians View Post
So you are defeated by virtue of:

1. The grammar
2. Logic
What an idiot who thinks his poor logic and poor grammar are proof that he got it right.
Colossians

Your grammar doesn't even work on the KJV English translation of the Greek sentence, and will never work on the Greek sentence that was translated.
You still haven't figured out the difference between a logical argument and a statement of overinflated ego.

Salvation is the gift from God by His Favor (Grace)
God's Favor (Grace) comes through our faithfulness





Learn to read what is written.
   
Reply With Quote
  (#40) Old
Desert Reign Desert Reign is offline
Gold level Subscriber
 Desert Reign's Avatar

 



Reputation:
Desert Reign is well respected by his peersDesert Reign is well respected by his peersDesert Reign is well respected by his peersDesert Reign is well respected by his peersDesert Reign is well respected by his peersDesert Reign is well respected by his peersDesert Reign is well respected by his peersDesert Reign is well respected by his peersDesert Reign is well respected by his peersDesert Reign is well respected by his peersDesert Reign is well respected by his peersDesert Reign is well respected by his peersDesert Reign is well respected by his peers
April 30th, 2012, 07:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colossians View Post
What you are essentially doing is:

1. replacing the semi-colon at the first punctuation point with a colon, thus transforming a pause to an indicator of impending reiterative amplification
2. conflating the error of (1) with a replacement of “and that” with “it is”.
3. essentially deleting the appended thought “through faith”
You keep trying to justify yourself when you have been shown where you are going wrong. The Greek text isn't going to change suddenly to help you out of a hole. You can't get a neuter demonstrative to agree with a feminine noun. The more you try, the more stupid you look. Perhaps you should consider if you are disrespecting the author of the Bible, so ready are you to deny what it plainly says or to make it mean what it plainly doesn't.





Total Misanthropy.
Uncertain salvation.
Luck of the draw.
Irresistible damnation.
Persecution of the saints.

Time is an illusion; lunchtime doubly so.
(The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

Bright Raven:
"It makes no difference what is said."
AcultureWarrior: It really doesn't matter what I think,
Jason: I don't care what kind of fact I got wrong.
B57: the Lord does not Love everyone, nor is it His purpose to save everyone
   
Reply With Quote
  (#41) Old
Colossians Colossians is offline
Over 6000 post club

 


Reputation:
Colossians has been getting noticedColossians has been getting noticedColossians has been getting noticedColossians has been getting noticedColossians has been getting noticedColossians has been getting noticed
May 1st, 2012, 04:24 AM

Desert,

You simply reveal your ignorance with your last post.

Go back and read the thread. in particular the OP, and try again.

Good luck.



   
Reply With Quote
  (#42) Old
Colossians Colossians is offline
Over 6000 post club

 


Reputation:
Colossians has been getting noticedColossians has been getting noticedColossians has been getting noticedColossians has been getting noticedColossians has been getting noticedColossians has been getting noticed
May 1st, 2012, 04:28 AM

I am in fact quite enjoying this thread, in particular knowing I have the anti-Calvinist by the ..........

His idiotic: "Ye are saved by grace, and that not of yourselves, it is by grace", just didn't occur to him beforehand, and now he is in damage-control mode, putting on a brave face.

Quite funny really.




Last edited by Colossians; May 1st, 2012 at 04:59 AM..
   
Reply With Quote
  (#43) Old
themuzicman themuzicman is offline
Over 4000 post club
 themuzicman's Avatar

 


Reputation:
themuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peers
May 1st, 2012, 06:07 AM

Given collosians last replay, I think we can conclude conclusively that he has no idea what he's talking about with respect to biblical Greek, refuses to engage context when understanding the idea that is being referred to by the neuter pronoun, and is simply going to insist on special pleading and assuming the conclusion to hold on to his debunked claims.

Topic closed.





I don't care how systematic your theology is, until you show me how biblical it is.

2 Tim 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
   
Reply With Quote
  (#44) Old
Colossians Colossians is offline
Over 6000 post club

 


Reputation:
Colossians has been getting noticedColossians has been getting noticedColossians has been getting noticedColossians has been getting noticedColossians has been getting noticedColossians has been getting noticed
May 1st, 2012, 08:38 AM

Muzicman,

Rather, as all can see, you miscalculated when you went into the thread, and you are regretting ever having begun. You did not analyse the issue according to logic, and that is your primary undoing.

Commensurately I have shown you that your emphasis idea has no merit, it comprising a complete restructure of the clause. And without that idea, your position is hopeless.

As for your neuter pronoun, that was covered in the OP, so you are playing dum, and trying to resurrect a closed issue. You are trying to pretend that I assert that the pronoun refers to the word "faith", when you are fully aware that I have made no such assertion, but, along with yourself, have stated in no uncertain terms that it refers to an idea going before. That idea going before, is not "saved", as you maintain, but the full "saved through faith". So you are trying to pull a shifty, which tells me that your Christianity is highly suspect.

I have never lost a debate (in all my years of theology debating) and this is no exception.

I refer all viewers to the OP, and to the post which puts the nail in the coffin of poster "themuzicman", post #38 above.



   
Reply With Quote
  (#45) Old
themuzicman themuzicman is offline
Over 4000 post club
 themuzicman's Avatar

 


Reputation:
themuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peersthemuzicman is well respected by his peers
May 1st, 2012, 08:45 AM

Quote:
Rather, as all can see, you miscalculated when you went into the thread, and you are regretting ever having begun. You did not analyse the issue according to logic, and that is your primary undoing.
The only thing I miscalculated was overestimating your ability to actually understand exegesis and to receive instruction with respect to biblical Grammar. Your "logic" is faulty because it engaged in two fallacies (assuming the conclusion and special pleading, as noted), and is based upon faulty evidence vis a vis your ignorance with respect to biblical Greek.

Quote:
I have never lost a debate (in all my years of theology debating) and this is no exception
A legend in his own mind!





I don't care how systematic your theology is, until you show me how biblical it is.

2 Tim 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
   
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Skin developed by: vBStyles.com
Copyright ©1997-2014 TheologyOnLine



Logos Bible Study Software Up to 15% OFF FOR THEOLOGYONLINE MEMBERS! Study twice, post once.
Logos Bible Software —take your Bible study to the next level.