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May 1st, 2012, 10:40 AM

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Originally Posted by Untellectual View Post
You are speaking of the gospels. You say the gospels are Old Covenant.

In studying the Torah, I have discovered that Genesis came before the Old Covenant, yet it is called the Old Covenant.

Matthew-John are in what is called the New Testament.

So maybe it doesn't matter what it is called, but what it actually is.

So then, why do you say Matthew-John are Old Covenant? Is what you are really saying that you only accept Paul?

And further, would Peter and the other Apostles then also be "Old-Covenant" in your view?

My understanding is that your position is that we can disregard the Old-Covenant as not being for us as New Testament believers.
Old Covenant began...

Ex. 24

6And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.

7And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.

8And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

Mt.-John, at least prior to the DBR=Old Covenant.

Hebrews 9:22 KJV
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

You have not surveyed, and studied the volume of the book, on this issue. When you have, I will then give you the honor of having a discussion with me.





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May 1st, 2012, 10:57 AM

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Originally Posted by Untellectual View Post
I see no reason to object to what Paul has said. And no reason to deny my Lord, Jesus Christ.

False dichotomy.

You do deny the Lord Jesus Christ, and are a rebel, obeying the Old Covenant commands of Mt.-John, given by the Lord Jesus Christ on earth to the nation of Israel, and reject the commands of the Lord Jesus Christ, from heaven, as entrusted to His spokesman, the apostle Paul, your apostle.

What "Paul has said," and what theLord Jesus Christ said, in Mt.-John, on earth, conflict in many places. Get honest with yourself, if not this board.

The Lord Jesus Christ's words, in Mt.-John, are God the Father's words.

Paul's words are the Lord Jesus Christ's words.

Accept it.





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May 1st, 2012, 11:15 AM

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Originally Posted by john w View Post
Old Covenant began...
Genesis 9:9 ?





1. Land forever. Gen 17:8 (KJV)
2. City FROM heaven. Rev 21:2 (KJV)
3. Heavenly places. Eph 2:6-7(KJV)


Don't mix them, leavening the whole household of God. Luke 13:21 (KJV)
   
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May 1st, 2012, 11:30 AM

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Originally Posted by john w View Post
Old Covenant began...

Ex. 24

6And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.

7And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.

8And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

Mt.-John, at least prior to the DBR=Old Covenant.

Hebrews 9:22 KJV
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

You have not surveyed, and studied the volume of the book, on this issue. When you have, I will then give you the honor of having a discussion with me.
I have read and studied the Bible, if that's what you mean. If it's not, then maybe you can clarify what you mean so that I can have that honor.





John 1:49 NASB - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

1 Corinthians 15:24 NASB - then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

Colossians 1:13 NASB - For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

Romans 5:10 NASB - For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

2 Corinthians 5:15 NASB - and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

Proverbs 2:20 NASB - So you will walk in the way of good men And keep to the paths of the righteous.
   
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May 1st, 2012, 11:31 AM

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Originally Posted by john w View Post
False dichotomy.

You do deny the Lord Jesus Christ, and are a rebel, obeying the Old Covenant commands of Mt.-John, given by the Lord Jesus Christ on earth to the nation of Israel, and reject the commands of the Lord Jesus Christ, from heaven, as entrusted to His spokesman, the apostle Paul, your apostle.

What "Paul has said," and what theLord Jesus Christ said, in Mt.-John, on earth, conflict in many places. Get honest with yourself, if not this board.

The Lord Jesus Christ's words, in Mt.-John, are God the Father's words.

Paul's words are the Lord Jesus Christ's words.

Accept it.
I don't reject Paul. I wonder if you reject Jesus. But then there is a time factor. When things happened, and what those things mean for us.

Jesus taught that we ought to love God and love our neighbor. I don't think he then negated that through Paul.





John 1:49 NASB - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

1 Corinthians 15:24 NASB - then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

Colossians 1:13 NASB - For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

Romans 5:10 NASB - For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

2 Corinthians 5:15 NASB - and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

Proverbs 2:20 NASB - So you will walk in the way of good men And keep to the paths of the righteous.
   
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May 1st, 2012, 12:07 PM

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Originally Posted by SaulToPaul View Post
Genesis 9:9 ?
Some believe we are in the church age, or the age/dispensation of grace. They believe that certain commands were only for Israel. There are many different takes on this, for and against.

The verse you reference is God speaking to Noah.

Genesis 9:8 And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,

Genesis 9:9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;

Genesis 9:10 And with every living creature that [is] with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.

Genesis 9:11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.

Genesis 9:12 And God said, This [is] the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that [is] with you, for perpetual generations:

Genesis 9:13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.

Genesis 9:14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:

Genesis 9:15 And I will remember my covenant, which [is] between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.

Genesis 9:16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that [is] upon the earth.

Genesis 9:17 And God said unto Noah, This [is] the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that [is] upon the earth.





John 1:49 NASB - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

1 Corinthians 15:24 NASB - then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

Colossians 1:13 NASB - For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

Romans 5:10 NASB - For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

2 Corinthians 5:15 NASB - and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

Proverbs 2:20 NASB - So you will walk in the way of good men And keep to the paths of the righteous.
   
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May 2nd, 2012, 03:37 AM

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Originally Posted by Untellectual View Post
The verse you reference is God speaking to Noah.
I was joking with brother john, for graceandpeace is wrongly adamant that the "Old" Covenant began with Gen 9:9.





1. Land forever. Gen 17:8 (KJV)
2. City FROM heaven. Rev 21:2 (KJV)
3. Heavenly places. Eph 2:6-7(KJV)


Don't mix them, leavening the whole household of God. Luke 13:21 (KJV)
   
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Gurucam Gurucam is offline
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May 2nd, 2012, 04:05 AM

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Originally Posted by Untellectual View Post
I'm glad you see salvation without your works.
You are so caught up in the letter, rhetoric and being right.

There is no salvation with out works. There is always works.

The difference is that if you esteem laws of any kind, then, if your works is not totally and absolutely in line with the laws which you esteem, you fall short of the glory of God, i.e. you fail to be in righteousness with God. You get sin.

However if you are led into all your works by precisely what the Spirit of Jesus has in mind for you to pray for say and do, as discerned within your own heart or spirit, your works can lead to the transgression of any law and you will be in glory of God, i.e. you will always be in righteousness with God. You will not get sin.

The reason why people get laws, (whether these are the 10 Commandments or the 50 Commandments which you listed), is because their hearts are waxed gross (closed or covered over) so they cannot have communion with the Spirit within their own hearts or spirits. Therefore they cannot access, use and/or be guided by the Spirit.

Those whose hearts are waxed gross are the dead. They are 'the dead' described in Jesus' statement: 'let the dead bury their dead'.

When Jesus walked, physically, on earth, of all the people who He encountered, only His disciple had hearts that were not waxed gross. Or at least that is what Jesus believed. Only they were given to know Truth. Everyone else had hearts that were waxed gross and were not given to know or get Truth.

Therefore all the laws which Jesus delivered, at all forum (except when He spoke to his disciples in private among only them), are laws and ideals. These were schoolmasters for guiding and managing the dead, for these dead masses were not given to actually follow Jesus. They may have followed Jesus physically. They could not follow Jesus in His Spirit and they had to follow Jesus in His Spirit as discerned within their own individual hearts, in order to benefit from Him. They could not be aware of Jesus in His Spirit and follow Him the right way, because their hearts were waxed gross. The right way means the 'right side brain' way.

The actual following of Jesus is through the regeneration. That is, to 'follow' Jesus one must discern His Spirit within one's own hearts and be led by it. So these masses were not actually following Jesus, although they may have physically followed Jesus. These masses of people were among 'the dead'.

For them Jesus reaffirmed the Ten Commandments and added more commandments. As long as the dead remained dead, Jesus left them to Peter/Satan and other dead people who may rise to led them. They were not and could be, in God's kingdom of heaven. 'The dead' is also called Satan.

Their only hope was and continue to be, to become spiritually aware, i.e. cease from having hearts which are waxed gross. Seeking to uphold laws (be they 10 or 50) cannot and will not save and/or deliver them. Those laws will only discipline and manage them so as to keep peace on earth and good will toward all men.

Laws and commandments are schoolmaster, i.e. they are management and guiding devises. These are not different from the law making and law enforcement agencies in any state.

Salvation and deliverance is strictly a spirit affair. These are achieved only through live, direct and intuitive communion with the Spirit of Truth within ones own heart or spirit and unconditional obedience to precisely what this Spirit has in mind for one to pray for, say and do, even if one has to transgress all 10 or 50 or infinite commandments.

The day that you come to know this Truth within your own heart is the day that your heart ceases to be waxed gross. That would be the day when the first glimmer of Truth has reached your awareness through the first slightest opening or uncovering, of your heart.




Last edited by Gurucam; May 2nd, 2012 at 06:58 AM..
   
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May 2nd, 2012, 08:52 AM

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Originally Posted by Gurucam View Post
You are so caught up in the letter, rhetoric and being right.

There is no salvation with out works. There is always works.
What does Romans 11:6 say? What about Ephesians 2:8-9 or Titus 3:5.

These are all from Paul. So I guess the question is if you believe Paul.





John 1:49 NASB - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

1 Corinthians 15:24 NASB - then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

Colossians 1:13 NASB - For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

Romans 5:10 NASB - For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

2 Corinthians 5:15 NASB - and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

Proverbs 2:20 NASB - So you will walk in the way of good men And keep to the paths of the righteous.
   
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Untellectual Untellectual is offline
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May 2nd, 2012, 08:55 AM

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Originally Posted by Gurucam View Post
even if one has to transgress all 10 or 50 or infinite commandments.
You have made one command necessary, and say it is not an infinite command. And this one command of yours is actually disobedience, breaking of other commands. That is not God's command, and your obedience is satanic, as you say.





John 1:49 NASB - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

1 Corinthians 15:24 NASB - then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

Colossians 1:13 NASB - For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

Romans 5:10 NASB - For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

2 Corinthians 5:15 NASB - and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

Proverbs 2:20 NASB - So you will walk in the way of good men And keep to the paths of the righteous.
   
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May 2nd, 2012, 10:54 AM

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Originally Posted by Untellectual View Post
What does Romans 11:6 say? What about Ephesians 2:8-9 or Titus 3:5.

These are all from Paul. So I guess the question is if you believe Paul.
Romans 11: verses: 6 & 7 KJV N.T. says:

If your righteousness of God is linked to Grace then it is no more linked to the old system of doing works which had to uphold the law, as was the cases with Israel.

If your righteousness is linked to Grace your works do no have to uphold any law. For those under grace, righteousness is not though the 'righteousness' of their works but because they led into their works by obeying the Spirit. Their works can be unrighteous, according to laws, that fine, they remain in righteousness with God, once they are led into their works by the Spirit. This is the liberty that is given to those in Christ. Where that Spirit is, there is liberty.

Those under grace cannot and do not neglect their gift of the Spirit. They serve in them as part of the body of Christ on earth. Being under grace of God cannot be separated from serving in one's gift(s) of the Spirit.

Being under grace of God is the state of accurately doing the will of God, 24 - 7. This is achieved when one is led into all one's works by precisely what the Spirit has in mind for one to pray for, say and do, as discerned within one's own heart or spirit.

You can pick up my deliveries of Truth now or never, they are and will remain, the eternal Truth. That foolishness with God which you are promoting as Christianity has been and will continue to result in many being called and few chosen.




Last edited by Gurucam; May 2nd, 2012 at 11:21 AM..
   
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May 2nd, 2012, 12:35 PM

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Originally Posted by Untellectual View Post
50 Commands of Christ - Summary List

1. Repent—Matthew 4:17, Luke 13:3
2. Let not your heart be troubled—John 14:27, John 16:33, Matthew 6:25-26, Philippians 4:6-7
3. Follow me—Matthew 4:19
4. Rejoice—Matthew 5:12, (Also 2 Corinthians 6:10, 12:10, James 1:2-4)
5. Let your light shine—Matthew 5:16
6. Honor God’s law—Matthew 5:17-19
7. Be reconciled—Matthew 5:24-25
8. Do not commit adultery—Matthew 5:27-30
9. Keep your word—Matthew 5:33-37
10. Go the second mile—Matthew 5:38-42
11. Love your enemies—Matthew 5:44
12. Be perfect—Matthew 5:48
13. Practice secret disciplines (giving, praying, fasting)—Matthew 6:1-18
14. Lay up treasures in heaven—Matthew 6:19-21
15. Seek first the kingdom of God—Matthew 6:33
16. Judge not—Matthew 7:1-2
17. Do not throw your pearls to pigs—Matthew 7:6
18. Ask, seek, and knock—Matthew 7:7-8
19. Do unto others—Matthew 7:12
20. Choose the narrow way—Matthew 7:13-14
21. Beware of false prophets—Matthew 7:15
22. Pray for those who spread the word—Matthew 9:37-38
23. Be as shrewd as serpents—Matthew 10:16. (Also Romans 16:19)
24. Fear God. Do not fear man— Matthew 10:28 (Also Luke 12:4-5)
25. Listen to God’s voice—Matthew 11:15, 13:9, 13:43, Mark 4:23, Luke 14:35, 1 Kings 19:11-13
26.Take my yoke—Matthew 11:29
27. Honor your parents—Matthew 15:4
28. Beware of false teaching—Matthew 16:6, 11-12
29. Deny yourself—Luke 9:23 (Also Matthew 10:38 and Mark 8:34)
30. Do not despise little ones—Matthew 18:10
31. Go to Christians who offend you—Matthew 18:15 (Also Galatians 6:1)
32. Forgive offenders—Matthew 18:21-22 (Also Proverbs 19:11)
33. Beware of covetousness—Luke 12:15
34. Honor marriage—Matthew 19:6, 19:9
35. Lead by being a servant—Matthew 20:26-28
36. Make the church a house of prayer for all nations—Mark 11:17
37. Pray in faith—Matthew 21:21-22, John 15:7
38. Bring in the poor—Luke 14:12-14
39. Render unto Caesar—Matthew 22:19-21
40. Love the Lord—Matthew 22:37-38
41. Love your neighbor—Matthew 22:39
42. Be born again—John 3:7
43. Await my return—Matthew 24:42-44
44. Celebrate the Lord’s supper—Matthew 26:26-27
45. Watch and pray—Matthew 26:41
46. Keep my commandments—John 14:15
47. Feed my sheep—John 21:15-16
48. Make and baptize disciples—Matthew 28:19
49. Teach disciples to obey—Matthew 28:20
50. Receive God’s power—Luke 24:49
John 8:28

From whence did Jesus words originate from?

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"And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

"For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" Psalm 6:5

I John 3:1-2. Prov 14:34 Psalm 133:1
   
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May 2nd, 2012, 01:12 PM

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Originally Posted by Gurucam View Post


Romans 11: verses: 6 & 7 KJV N.T. says:

If your righteousness of God is linked to Grace then it is no more linked to the old system of doing works which had to uphold the law, as was the cases with Israel.

If your righteousness is linked to Grace your works do no have to uphold any law. For those under grace, righteousness is not though the 'righteousness' of their works but because they led into their works by obeying the Spirit. Their works can be unrighteous, according to laws, that fine, they remain in righteousness with God, once they are led into their works by the Spirit. This is the liberty that is given to those in Christ. Where that Spirit is, there is liberty.

Those under grace cannot and do not neglect their gift of the Spirit. They serve in them as part of the body of Christ on earth. Being under grace of God cannot be separated from serving in one's gift(s) of the Spirit.

Being under grace of God is the state of accurately doing the will of God, 24 - 7. This is achieved when one is led into all one's works by precisely what the Spirit has in mind for one to pray for, say and do, as discerned within one's own heart or spirit.

You can pick up my deliveries of Truth now or never, they are and will remain, the eternal Truth. That foolishness with God which you are promoting as Christianity has been and will continue to result in many being called and few chosen.
What do you mean by "foolishness with God"? We don't discern what truth is, unless God has given us that ability. Otherwise we need to learn the truth. In a way truth is object and not subjective to our experience.

Being under grace the way you explain it has to do with experience. It is God's grace. We don't decide if God gives us grace. If He does, we are under grace. We don't do things to stay under grace. That would be works. See Galatians.

I agree with much of what you have said.

However, people coming to God and Christ is a work of the Spirit, so you shouldn't be concerned about if you are doing enough for people to be chosen.

You are learning. As you learn what you say will come closer and closer to the truth.

May you speak truth, and find rest in Christ that this would be possible.





John 1:49 NASB - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

1 Corinthians 15:24 NASB - then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

Colossians 1:13 NASB - For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

Romans 5:10 NASB - For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

2 Corinthians 5:15 NASB - and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

Proverbs 2:20 NASB - So you will walk in the way of good men And keep to the paths of the righteous.
   
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Untellectual Untellectual is offline
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May 2nd, 2012, 01:13 PM

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Originally Posted by oatmeal View Post
John 8:28

From whence did Jesus words originate from?

oatmeal
Jesus always spoke the word of God.





John 1:49 NASB - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

1 Corinthians 15:24 NASB - then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

Colossians 1:13 NASB - For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

Romans 5:10 NASB - For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

2 Corinthians 5:15 NASB - and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

Proverbs 2:20 NASB - So you will walk in the way of good men And keep to the paths of the righteous.
   
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Gurucam Gurucam is offline
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May 2nd, 2012, 02:42 PM

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Originally Posted by Untellectual View Post
What do you mean by "foolishness with God"? We don't discern what truth is, unless God has given us that ability. Otherwise we need to learn the truth. In a way truth is object and not subjective to our experience.

Being under grace the way you explain it has to do with experience. It is God's grace. We don't decide if God gives us grace. If He does, we are under grace. We don't do things to stay under grace. That would be works. See Galatians.

I agree with much of what you have said.

However, people coming to God and Christ is a work of the Spirit, so you shouldn't be concerned about if you are doing enough for people to be chosen.

May you speak truth, and find rest in Christ that this would be possible.
Foolishness with God are misunderstanding and misrepresentation of scriptures. If you agree with much of what I have said, then you will appreciate that lot of what passes for Truth in traditional Christianity is 'foolishness with God'.

Foolishness with God is also intellectually derived knowledge. Knowledge that come to one from left side brain discernment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Untellectual View Post
You are learning. As you learn what you say will come closer and closer to the truth.
It is my experience that more I am true to and freely share my intuitions of Truth from the Spirit of Truth, the more I get.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Untellectual View Post
We don't discern what truth is, unless God has given us that ability. Otherwise we need to learn the truth. In a way truth is object and not subjective to our experience.

Being under grace the way you explain it has to do with experience. It is God's grace. We don't decide if God gives us grace. If He does, we are under grace. We don't do things to stay under grace. That would be works. See Galatians.

Indeed we cannot and do not discern Truth unless we have that Gift of the Spirit (i.e. unless we are given by God to do so). The sad part is that is the only way to know Truth. On the up side is that one does not need to know or understand Truth, per say, in order to be led by the Spirit. The capacity or actualization to discern Truth (i.e. the matrix or mystery of the kingdom of God) is a specific Gift of the Spirit which teachers, governors etc. must posses.

Fact is every one is Truth/Jesus at their purest (deepest) level. However this pure self is very buried (by waxed gross covering at many levels). Therefore the search for Truth is actually a search of one self at the finest level. This search starts by never denying one's self at the level of one's own spirit. Do not let conditioning of religions (they use laws etc, and this derails you) lead you to deny what you feel and experience through your spirit. However, walk this spiritual walk cautiously, for many are the stumbling blocks. Expect to err however expect to also awaken.

Enlightenment is the unveiling of one one 's pure self. It is a purification of self. That is to become Jesus in one's own right. This is the ultimate passage.

This is why one is told to seek ye first the kingdom of God within, then all things will be added. This is also why the first step is to be born again. To be born again is to become aware of one's own heart or spirit. Nothing can happen unless one is awakened to one's own spirit or heart. This is to no longer be, 'the dead'. This is to stop being the intellectual, i.e. stop being the ego driven 'knower'. That is, stop being driven by one's life side brain. Start trusting one's intuitions. Then all things will be opened onto one.






Last edited by Gurucam; May 2nd, 2012 at 04:23 PM..
   
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