Philippians 1:28,29: Don't play it again Mr. MuzicMan
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Philippians 1:28,29: Don't play it again Mr. MuzicMan -
April 28th, 2012, 07:21 AM
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LIMITED EXPOSITION OF PHILIPPIANS 1:28,29
[28] “And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God. [29] For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake”
Poster “themuzicman” has yet again graced us with his theological prowess, this time on Philippians 1:29.
His idea is that the granting of faith mentioned at v29 and which the Calvinist declares means what it says (that those of us who believe in Christ believe because it has been “given” to us to believe – that our faith is of God and not of ourselves) cannot possibly mean this because we are also told that it has been given to us to suffer for Christ’s sake, and a nice God wouldn’t do that because that would mean that God was opposing His own people!
Naughty God!
Note then the hermeneutic of Mr Muzic: rather than submit to what the scripture says and learn from it so that one might move from a diet of skinny-milk on to at least cheese and crackers, he comes to it with his humanistic ideas and simply overrides what is said: the scripture isn’t going to teach him: he’s going to teach the scripture! Eisegesis in its most crystalline form.
Looking at the passage properly
At v28 the persecution of those in Christ is rather presented as the positive that it is rightly perceived to be by those who are spiritually-minded: we are told that such persecution is in fact a “token” (an indicator) of our salvation.
And so the very revealing of this fact to us is necessarily part and parcel of that “token”, for in learning of such we are necessarily encouraged to press on in the faith.
Because v29 begins with “For” (“Because”), we are put on notice that the notion it will present will be subsumed under what has just been pointed out at v28. Specifically, we are informed that the salvation to which v28 refers, necessarily consists of both faith and suffering.
And so we see from the following:
“If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him” 2 Ti 2:12
that the grace in the following which brings us to reign in this life with Christ:
“they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ” Rom 5:17
consists at least in part, of suffering.
That is, God’s grace toward us is not simply His death for us at Calvary, but His appointing of us to suffer along with Christ.
For:
“The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?” Mt 10:24,25
and:
“the Lord ….scourgeth every son whom he receiveth” Heb 12:3-8
And so we are told that such suffering provides for us to glorify God:
“if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.” 1 Pe 4:16
and again:
“For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.” 1 Pe 2:20
For the Lord has told us:
“ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake…..and when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.” Luke 21:17,28
We are therefore told:
“Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise [Christ]; he hath put him to grief” Is 53:10
because Christ would:
“learn … obedience by the things which he suffered” Heb 5:8
And thus we read of (true) Christians who reign with Christ in this life:
“For your obedience is come abroad unto all men” Rom 16:19
Summary thus far
Rather than opposing us, in bringing us into suffering God is in fact doing the very best thing He could possibly do for us: we are caused to be transformed from spoilt brats into sons who walk worthy of their calling, and so lay hold of the eternal prize:
“Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain” 1 Cor 9:24
From our head passage again:
“For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake”.
On the nature of suffering
The passages we have referred to have been primarily concerned with the suffering which takes the form of persecution for one’s faith.
However such is not to the exclusion of natural suffering.
Christian woman, Joni Eareckson, came to fame in her undaunted love for Jesus Christ amidst her suffering as a quadriplegic. As a result, she has ministered all over the world – even on the platform of Billy Graham crusades – to people who suffer, and as an evangelical witness. Her love and commitment to Christ, and ministry, would not have even remotely approached the level it attained to, if she had not become a cripple through a diving accident in her youth.
Joni showed how she was joyful in the Lord even having to paint art by holding the paintbrush with her mouth. And she produced a recorded studio album full of songs of gratitude to the Lord.
God appointed such accident for her life. For God had something far greater for her than natural comfort could lead her to.
The film “Joni” went around the world. I arranged for my local Youth For Christ group to view it at a local cinema.
We praise God for the suffering of Joni Eareckson, for when we are downcast, when we are sick, and when we are persecuted, we derive great encouragement from such people as Joni.
The Lord has now added breast cancer to Joni’s suffering. The Lord is good.
And so:
“But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.” 2 Cor 4:7
all the while knowing that:
“if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.” 2 Cor 5:1
and that:
“Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.” 1 Cor 2:9
but that nevertheless:
“God hath revealed [these things] unto us by his Spirit” 1 Cor 2:10
And so:
"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us." Rom 8:18
Summary on the carnally minded
The ideas espoused by poster “themuzicman” and cohorts, are not of the Spirit, but carnal: they are those typical of the spoilt-brat easy-believism we see masquerading today in the name of Christianity: such people evidence little if none understanding of our calling in Christ Jesus.
Essentially their ideas are humanism in the name of Christ. It is in fact doubtful whether these people even understand the gospel of Jesus Christ at all: “Jesus died for my sins and because I believe this I’m going to heaven”, is in fact not the full gospel, but at best the gospel of babes in Christ, and at worst, the ‘gospel’ of false believers.
We are not simply called to heaven, but called to demonstrate the love of God.
And love is most demonstrative, in suffering.
Summary the last
It has been rightly said:
“A bruised reed plays the strongest song of grace”
Amen.
Last edited by Colossians; April 28th, 2012 at 05:47 PM.
__________________________________________LIMITED EXPOSITION OF PHILIPPIANS 1:28,29[28] “And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God. [29] For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake”Poster “themuzicman” has yet again graced us with his theological prowess, this time on Philippians 1:29.His idea is that the granting of faith mentioned at v29 and which the Calvinist declares means what it says (that those of us who believe in Christ believe because it has been “given” to us to believe – that our faith is of God and not of ourselves) cannot possibly mean this because we are also told that it has been given to us to suffer for Christ’s sake, and a nice God wouldn’t do that because that would mean that God was opposing His own people!Naughty God!Note then the hermeneutic of Mr Muzic: rather than submit to what the scripture says and learn from it so that one might move from a diet of skinny-milk on to at least cheese and crackers, he comes to it with his humanistic ideas and simply overrides what is said: the scripture isn’t going to teach him: he’s going to teach the scripture! Eisegesis in its most crystalline form.Looking at the passage properlyAt v28 the persecution of those in Christ is rather presented as the positive that it is rightly perceived to be by those who are spiritually-minded:we are told that such persecution is in fact a “token” (an indicator) of our salvation. And so the very revealing of this fact to us is necessarily part and parcel of that “token”, for in learning of such we are necessarily encouraged to press on in the faith.Because v29 begins with “For” (“Because”), we are put on notice that the notion it will present will be subsumed under what has just been pointed out at v28. Specifically, we are informed that the salvation to which v28 refers, necessarily consists of both faith and suffering.And so we see from the following:“If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him” 2 Ti 2:12that the grace in the following which brings us to reign in this life with Christ:“they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ” Rom 5:17consists at least in part, of suffering. That is, God’s grace toward us is not simply His death for us at Calvary, but His appointing of us to suffer along with Christ.For:“The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?” Mt 10:24,25and:“the Lord ….scourgeth every son whom he receiveth” Heb 12:3-8And so we are told that such suffering provides for us to glorify God:“if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.” 1 Pe 4:16and again:“For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.” 1 Pe 2:20For Jesus had told us:“ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake…..and when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.” Luke 21:17,28We are therefore told:“Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief”Is 53:10because Christ would:“learn… obedience by the things which he suffered;” Heb 5:8And thus we read of (true) Christians who live and reign with Christ:“For your obedience is come abroad unto all men” Rom 16:19Summary thus farRather than opposing us, in bringing us into suffering God is in fact doing the very best thing He could possibly do for us: we are caused to be transformed from spoilt brats into sons who walk worthy of their calling, and so lay hold of the eternal prize:“Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain” 1 Cor 9:24From our head passage again:“For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake”.On the nature of sufferingThe passages we have referred to have been primarily concerned with the suffering which takes the form of persecution for one’s faith.However such is not to the exclusion of natural suffering.Christian woman, Joni Eareckson, came to fame in her undaunted love for Jesus Christ amidst her suffering as a quadriplegic. As a result, she has ministered all over the world – even on the platform of Billy Graham crusades – to people who suffer, and as an evangelical witness. Her love and commitment to Christ, and ministry, would not have even remotely approached the level it attained to, if she had not become a cripple through a diving accident in her youth.Joni showed how she was joyful in the Lord even having to paint art by holding the paintbrush with her mouth. And she produced a recorded studio album full of songs of gratitude to the Lord.God appointed such accident for her life. For God had something far greater for her than natural comfort could lead her to.The film “Joni” went around the world. I arranged for my local Youth For Christ group to view it at our local cinema.We praise God for the suffering of Joni Eareckson, for when we are downcast, when we are sick, and when we are persecuted, we derive great encouragement from such people as Joni.The Lord has now added breast cancer to Joni’s suffering. The Lord is good.And so:“But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.” 2 Cor 4:7all the while knowing that:“if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.” 2 Cor 5:1and that:“Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.” 1 Cor 2:9but that nevertheless:“God hath revealed [these things]unto us by his Spirit” 1 Cor 2:10Summary on the carnally mindedThe ideas espoused by poster “themuzicman” and cohorts, are not of the Spirit, but carnal: they are those typical of the spoilt-brat easy-believism we see masquerading today in the name of Christianity: such people evidence little if none understanding of our calling in Christ Jesus.Essentially their ideas are humanism in the name of Christ. It is in fact doubtful whether these people even understand the gospel of Jesus Christ at all: “Jesus died for my sins and because I believe this I’m going to heaven”, is in fact not the full gospel, but at best the gospel of babes in Christ, and at worst, the ‘gospel’ of false believers.We are not simply called to heaven, but called to demonstrate the love of God.And love is most demonstrative, in suffering.Summary the lastIt has been rightly said:“A bruised reed plays the strongest song of grace”Amen.
Collosians loves to engage in a practice that Calvinists typically do to try to protect their precious eisegete proof texts.. Its' called "refuting Scripture with Scripture."
Let's look more closely at the passage:
Up to this point, Paul has been talking about his persecution, being imprisoned, seeing those he knows preach the gospel out of envy and strife, being hard pressed from both directions. Clearly Paul is talking about those who are opponents to the Church.
And then he says:
27 Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel; 28 in no way alarmed by your opponents—which is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you, and that too, from God. 29 For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 30 experiencing the same conflict which you saw in me, and now hear to be in me.
In this context, clearly the opponents of the Church are causing what ever suffering is being felt by the Philippians.
And then Calvinist say (as Collossians just did) that GOD is the cause of that suffering, which means we must conclude that Collosians thinks that God is the opponent of His own Church.
Think about that for a moment, how dumb that sounds. Not that this is a surprise for Collosians, he puts both feet in his mouth on a daily basis, usually multiple times.
And Collosians then points out that suffering is a good thing. That God "scourgeth" us. Attempting to refute what Phil 1:29 is telling us by importing other contexts. What he is doing is really denying the inerrancy of Scripture by claiming that parts of Scripture need to be corrected with other parts of Scripture, so that they say what he wants them to say.
Does suffering produce good effects? It can. But that isn't the point of Phil 1.
Paul's point in Phil 1 is that we should stand under the suffering of those who oppose us, for it is part and parcel of believing in God, who, after enabling us to believe, places us where we stand against His opponents to suffer for Christ.
So, when we strip away Collolsians' pretense and proof texting and refuting Scripture with Scripture, we see that his position makes God the opponent of His own Church.
Which is simply laughable.
to be clear I am unequivocally stating that God is NOT the opponent of His own Church, and that is why the Calvinist eisegesis of this passage is wrong.
End of thread.
I don't care how systematic your theology is, until you show me how biblical it is.
2 Tim 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
Rather, your ideas are precluded by the content of the OP.
You simply haven't read it properly, and thus your 'reponse' is not worthy of a reply.
You also dig yourself in a whole: those who see your ideas in contrast to those presented in the OP, will see you as a carnally minded angry little man who has no real experience in Christian living.
Rather, your ideas are precluded by the content of the OP.
You simply haven't read it properly, and thus your 'reponse' is not worthy of a reply.
You also dig yourself in a whole: those who see your ideas in contrast to those presented in the OP, will see you as a carnally minded angry little man who has no real experience in Christian living.
Seeing as you are attempting to reply to me, what I have to say about the verse is immediately relevant.
The problem is that you have no answer for a proper exegesis of this verse, so, like Sir Robin, you bravely run away.
I don't care how systematic your theology is, until you show me how biblical it is.
2 Tim 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
The problem is that you have no answer for a proper exegesis of this verse, so, like Sir Robin, you bravely run away.
Rather, the problem is that your 'exegesis' is sold at Disney Land for $4.95: it's called the "Mickey Mouse exegesis on the run".
You see, the benefit of doing a fully structured exegisis as I have done, is that I don't really have to spend much energy defending it: the work has been done.
Contrasting, you come in here with your puerile ideas which any brand new baby Christian would believe or any atheist who has heard that God is supposed to be a nice guy believes, and you present such ultra-elementary thought as though none of us would have thought of it before, thus showing us you are not only a humanist, but ultra-naive.
I have comprehensively demonstrated in the OP that God appoints suffering for the Body just as He did for the Head.
You and your easy-believism have no idea. You just don't get it. Essentially, you are a secular humanist in the name of Christ.
And the scripture is clear that when Job was made to suffer, and said that the Lord had caused his afflication, his representation was accurate, for the scripture then declared that Job had not sinned in his reactions (Job 1:21,22).
So he was correct in attributing his turmoil to God. In fact God said to Satan that Satan had moved God against Job (Job 2:3). So it was God primarily afflicting Job, not Satan. That is, Satan was the puppet, and God was pulling the strings and using Satan to afflict Job.
Why?
Because just as Christ learned obedience by the things He suffered, so too are we to learn obedience by the things we suffer.
And if we don't learn obedience, we are not going to have much joy in heaven. So it is absolutely vital that God bring suffering upon us, which of course He will never do to a point which we cannot stand.
The problem is that you have no answer for a proper exegesis of this verse, so, like Sir Robin, you bravely run away.
Rather, the problem is that your 'exegesis' is sold at Disney Land for $4.95: it's called the "Mickey Mouse exegesis on the run".
You see, the benefit of doing a fully structured exegisis as I have done, is that I don't really have to spend much energy defending it: the work has been done.
Contrasting, you come in here with your puerile ideas which any brand new baby Christian would believe or any atheist who has heard that God is supposed to be a nice guy believes, and you present such ultra-elementary thought as though none of us would have thought of it before, thus showing us you are not only a humanist, but ultra-naive.
I have comprehensively demonstrated in the OP that God appoints suffering for the Body just as He did for the Head.
You and your easy-believism have no idea. You just don't get it. Essentially, you are a secular humanist in the name of Christ.
Ah, the ad hominem argument. The most begrudging (and satisfying) admission of defeat.
And he still can't address my argument as given.
(notice in the other post that he runs away from local context and engages in refuting Scripture with Scripture.)
I don't care how systematic your theology is, until you show me how biblical it is.
2 Tim 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
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