ReligionDiscuss General Theology, Religions and Denominations, God's Attributes, Predestination and Free Will, Dispensationalism, Eschatology, Philosophy, Origins, Archaeology, Science, World History and other such topics.
Slogan/motto:
Sinners cannot save sinners, nor can sinners save themselves.
Reputation:
The False Gospel Of Catholicism -
May 1st, 2012, 05:23 PM
Council of Trent Canon # 20. "If anyone says that a man who is justified and however perfect is not bound to observe the commandments of God and the church, but only to believe, as if the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life without the condition of observing the commandments, let him be anathema."
The reason that salvation is by faith in Christ alone is because the work of redemption has ALREADY been done. There is nothing left to do. Keeping the commandments cannot justify. The reason that works and obedience to the law will not justify is because as Paul said, "There is none righteous, no not one," Romans 3:11.
We need to be justified by a righteousness that is totally and completely outside of us.
"To declare I say, at this time HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS: that he might be just, and the justifier of him that believes in Jesus," Romans 3:26.
We cannot justify ourselves, simply because we don't have a righteousness that God will accept. God does not accept the works and the obedience of sinners. God only accepts the work and obedience of Jesus Christ. We are accepted only in him. Jesus Christ sits at the right hand of God in heaven as our sinless advocate, Hebrews 7:27. He is there presenting his righteousness on our behalf.
Catholics are trying to do in their flesh what God has ALREADY done in Jesus Christ.
The New Testament witness is that Jesus Christ has ALREADY fulfilled God's Holy Law. He has ALREADY done this in our name and on our behalf.
The New Testament witness is that Jesus Christ has ALREADY atoned for our sins and the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.
The New Testament witness is that Jesus Christ has ALREADY reconciled us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.
The New Testament witness is that Jesus Christ has ALREADY dealt with sin, death and the devil and was victorious over them, Colossians 2:15.
Catholics need to accept what God has ALREADY done for them in Jesus Christ instead of trying to justify themselves by their works and their obedience, which is worthless.
Pate's been corrected and refuted on a dozen other threads like this one. Just review any of those started by him to read the Catholic answers to his anti-Catholic claims.
Yet another wasted thread by Pate...
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
"The very tradition, teaching, & faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning was preached by the Apostles & preserved by the Fathers. On this the Church was founded..." ~ St. Athanasius (4th cent.)
Pate's been corrected and refuted on a dozen other threads like this one. Just review any of those started by him to read the Catholic answers to his anti-Catholic claims.
Yet another wasted thread by Pate...
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
I thought this was a Forum where you challenged someones post with YOUR OWN thoughts and ideas.
Why do you always refer us to what someone else thinks that is not even related to the opening post.
There are 6 references to scriptures. Are you going to deny the scriptures, or are you going to tell me that I am not an authority?
Slogan/motto:
Gaudium de veritate (Latin, "Delight in the truth")
Reputation:
May 1st, 2012, 09:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Pate
I thought this was a Forum where you challenged someones post with YOUR OWN thoughts and ideas.
Then why don't you ever do so? (Actually no one really creates "his own thoughts and ideas," but derives them from various external informational sources, or traditions.) Instead, we're treated to preferences and opinions derived from your preferred anti-Catholic sectarian tradition(s).
Quote:
Are you going to deny the scriptures...
No, only your fallible and false interpretations of the scriptures. Big difference there.
Quote:
...or are you going to tell me that I am not an authority?
That goes without saying.
In any case, I've already answered the OP in Post #2 above. Moving on...
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
"The very tradition, teaching, & faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning was preached by the Apostles & preserved by the Fathers. On this the Church was founded..." ~ St. Athanasius (4th cent.)
Slogan/motto:
Sinners cannot save sinners, nor can sinners save themselves.
Reputation:
May 2nd, 2012, 07:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruciform
Then why don't you ever do so? (Actually no one really creates "his own thoughts and ideas," but derives them from various external informational sources, or traditions.) Instead, we're treated to preferences and opinions derived from your preferred anti-Catholic sectarian tradition(s).
No, only your fallible and false interpretations of the scriptures. Big difference there.
That goes without saying.
In any case, I've already answered the OP in Post #2 above. Moving on...
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
The anti-Catholic sectarian traditions include the Bible.
A 10 year old could interpret the scriptures that are in the opening post.
Slogan/motto:
Gaudium de veritate (Latin, "Delight in the truth")
Reputation:
May 2nd, 2012, 03:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Pate
The anti-Catholic sectarian traditions include the Bible.
...your preferred interpretations of the Bible, you mean.
Quote:
A 10 year old could interpret the scriptures that are in the opening post.
Sure...that must be why there are some 38,000+ competing and contradictory man-made non-Catholic denominations and sects in existence today, with more being invented every week!
Quote:
The Bible speaks for its self.
No it doesn't. Rather, men like you presume to speak for it contrary to the authoritative teachings of Christ's historic Church (1 Tim. 3:15).
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
"The very tradition, teaching, & faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning was preached by the Apostles & preserved by the Fathers. On this the Church was founded..." ~ St. Athanasius (4th cent.)
Slogan/motto:
Sinners cannot save sinners, nor can sinners save themselves.
Reputation:
May 2nd, 2012, 04:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruciform
...your preferred interpretations of the Bible, you mean.
Sure...that must be why there are some 38,000+ competing and contradictory man-made non-Catholic denominations and sects in existence today, with more being invented every week!
No it doesn't. Rather, men like you presume to speak for it contrary to the authoritative teachings of Christ's historic Church (1 Tim. 3:15).
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
Christ's historic church would never reject the Gospel and salvation by grace through faith.
The whole Catholic religion is a denial that God has reconciled the world unto himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.
The whole Catholic religion is a denial that Jesus Christ has victoriously overcome the world, the flesh and the devil, Colossians 2:15.
The whole Catholic religion is a denial that Jesus Christ by his mighty works has entered into heaven as our high priest and intercessor, Hebrews 7:26.
Slogan/motto:
Gaudium de veritate (Latin, "Delight in the truth")
Reputation:
May 2nd, 2012, 04:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Pate
Christ's historic church would never reject the Gospel and salvation by grace through faith.
The historic Catholic Church has always taught salvation by grace through faith, and continues to do so today. See, for example,here.
Quote:
The whole Catholic religion is a denial that God has reconciled the world unto himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.
Strike one...
Quote:
The whole Catholic religion is a denial that Jesus Christ has victoriously overcome the world, the flesh and the devil, Colossians 2:15.
Strike two...
Quote:
The whole Catholic religion is a denial that Jesus Christ by his mighty works has entered into heaven as our high priest and intercessor, Hebrews 7:26.
Strike three---you're out.
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
"The very tradition, teaching, & faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning was preached by the Apostles & preserved by the Fathers. On this the Church was founded..." ~ St. Athanasius (4th cent.)
Slogan/motto:
Sinners cannot save sinners, nor can sinners save themselves.
Reputation:
May 2nd, 2012, 05:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruciform
The historic Catholic Church has always taught salvation by grace through faith, and continues to do so today. See, for example,here.
Strike one...
Strike two...
Strike three---you're out.
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
The Catholic church teaches salvation by grace (infused righteousness) through works. You must think that we are all a bunch of fools.
Council of Trent Canon #21. "If anyone says that Christ Jesus was given by God to men as a redeemer in whom to trust, and not also as a legislator (task master) whom to obey, let him be anathema."
You must, You must, You must, You Must, and if you don't your out and if your out, you are going to hell.
To be a Catholic is to be under the law. To be under the law is to be under a curse, Galatians 3:10.
Slogan/motto:
Gaudium de veritate (Latin, "Delight in the truth")
Reputation:
May 2nd, 2012, 05:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Pate
The Catholic church teaches salvation by grace (infused righteousness) through works.
The Catholic Church does not now, nor has it ever, taught "salvation by works." Your ignorance of what Catholics actually believe and teach is showing here. Again, you need to make a careful and thorough study of this.
Quote:
You must think that we are all a bunch of fools.
Yeah, it's not looking good for you.
Quote:
Council of Trent Canon #21. "If anyone says that Christ Jesus was given by God to men as a redeemer in whom to trust, and not ALSO as a legislator (task master) whom to obey, let him be anathema."
Correct.
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
"The very tradition, teaching, & faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning was preached by the Apostles & preserved by the Fathers. On this the Church was founded..." ~ St. Athanasius (4th cent.)
Slogan/motto:
Sinners cannot save sinners, nor can sinners save themselves.
Reputation:
May 3rd, 2012, 07:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruciform
The Catholic Church does not now, nor has it ever, taught "salvation by works." Your ignorance of what Catholics actually believe and teach is showing here. Again, you need to make a careful and thorough study of this.
Yeah, it's not looking good for you.
Correct.
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
I don't have to do anything to be saved, Christ has done it all. I am justified by faith, plus nothing.
_______________
Please sign here.
Option #2
I am justified by a faith that has become active by love (works) plus Catholicism.
Slogan/motto:
Sinners cannot save sinners, nor can sinners save themselves.
Reputation:
May 3rd, 2012, 08:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrysostom
you don't even have to attack the Catholic Church
No, I don't even have to do that.
However, there is something very precious at stake here that you and your Catholic brothers continue to offend.
It is the "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ.
It concerns the work that Jesus did that reconciled me unto God the Father, 2 Corinthians 5:18.
You seem to think that sinners can do something that will help them to participate in their own salvation.
In other words what Jesus Christ did was not enough. So, you are going to pick up the ball and run with it.
This is known as trying to be saved by the works of the law. Paul said that when you picked up the ball and ran with it, that put you under a curse, Galatians 3:10.
However, there is something very precious at stake here that you and your Catholic brothers continue to offend.
It is the "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ.
It concerns the work that Jesus did that reconciled me unto God the Father, 2 Corinthians 5:18.
You seem to think that sinners can do something that will help them to participate in their own salvation.
In other words what Jesus Christ did was not enough. So, you are going to pick up the ball and run with it.
This is known as trying to be saved by the works of the law. Paul said that when you picked up the ball and ran with it, that put you under a curse, Galatians 3:10.
you are contradicting yourself
you say that we do what we don't have to do
and
you are doing what you don't have to do
May 1st, 2012, 05:33 PM
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