[Redeemed-777]

Let’s start with WHY no human could be the father of Jesus.
“… she (Mary) was found with child of the Holy Spirit …
that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.” (Matthew 1:18,20)
“The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you” (Luke 1:35)
This miracle of the Holy Spirit ensured that Jesus would not inherit man’s sin nature.

Some verses from David … enjoy!
“Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.” (Psalm 51:5)
“The wicked (sons of men, verse 1) are estranged from the womb;
they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.” (Psalm 58:3)
“The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men … They have all turned aside,
they have all become corrupt; there is none who does good, no, not one.” (Psalm 14:2-3)
“God looks down from heaven upon the children of men … Every one of them has turned aside;
they have all become corrupt; there is none who does good, no, not one.” (Psalm 53:2-3)
“… for in Your sight no one living is righteous.” (Psalm 143:2)

Next up … various and sundry verses … enjoy!
“… (for there is no one who does not sin) …” (1 Kings 8:46, 2 Chronicles 6:36)
“For there is not a just man on earth who does good and does not sin.” (Ecclesiastes 7:20)
“Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? No one!” (Job 14:4)
“For I knew that you (Israel) … were called a transgressor from the womb.” (Isaiah 48:8)
“For we are all like an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses
are like filthy rags (women’s menstral cloths)” (Isaiah 64:6)
The Pharisees said to a man, “You were completely born in sins …” (John 9:34)

Jesus, of course, understood man’s disasterous spiritual condition
“If you (Jesus’ disciples) then, being evil, know how to give good gifts …” (Luke 11:13)
Did Jesus purposely choose evil men to be His disciples? No, He’s just saying that all men are evil.
“But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men, and had no need
that anyone should tell Him about man, for He knew what was in man.” (John 2:23-25)
“I am He who searches the minds and hearts.” (Revelation 2:23)
“Out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts,
false witness (lies), blasphemies.” (Matthew 15:19)

Paul (the Jewish scholar) just repeated what his Old Covenant Scriptures say
“As it is written: ‘There is none righteous, no, not one … there is none who does good,
no, not one.’ ” (Romans 3:10-12). Paul is quoting here from Psalm 53:2-3.
“The Scripture has confined all under sin …” (Galatians 3:22)
“… through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin,
and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned …” (Romans 5:12)
“I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.
… the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.” (Romans 7:18-19)
“… through one man’s offense (Adam’s sin) judgment came to all men,
resulting in condemnation … in Adam all die (spiritually) …” (1 Corinthians 15:18, 22)
“And you He made alive, who were (spiritually) dead in trespasses and sins” (Eph. 2:1-3)

The Fall of Man affected more than just the human race
What happened between …
“Then God saw everything that he had made, and indeed it was very good.” (Genesis 1:31)
and …
“… the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption
into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that
the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.” (Romans 8:21-22)
What happened was “the Fall of Man” and this caused:
(1) a cursed man … an inherited sin nature, evil, sickness, physical death, spiritual death.
(2) a cursed creation … suffering, pain, disorder/chaos, death of God’s creatures.

Noah and his family carried the sin nature through the flood
Noah left the ark, built an altar, and offered a burnt offering to the Lord (Genesis 8:18-20).
”Then the Lord said in His heart,
‘… the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth …’ ” (Genesis 8:21)

Jews … how can you not believe in original sin?
Muslims … how can you say God’s prophets were all sinless?
Christians … how can you (especially) not believe in original sin?

[Redeemed-777]

“For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,
that we should no longer be slaves to sin” (Romans 6:6 – NIV, 1984)

“For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law
were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. … I know that nothing good lives in me,
that is, in my sinful nature. … So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law,
but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.” (Romans 7:5,18,25 – NIV, 1984)

“Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires;
but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.
… Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
… Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation — but it is not to the sinful nature
… For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die …” (Romans 8:5,8,12,13 – NIV, 1984)

“But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love.
… So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary
to the sinful nature. … Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature
with its passions and desires." (Galatians 5:13,16,17,24 – NIV, 1984)

“The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction”
(Galatians 6:8 – NIV, 1984)

“All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature
and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.”
(Ephesians 2:3 – NIV, 1984)

“In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision
done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ … When you were dead
in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ.”
(Colossians 2:11,13 – NIV, 1984)

“This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority.
For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature”
(2 Peter 2:10,18 – NIV, 1984)

[themuzicman]

Lots here about a sinful nature. Nothing here about it being inherited.....

[Livelystone]

Originally Posted by themuzicman

Lots here about a sinful nature. Nothing here about it being inherited.....

Everything has to come from somewhere and the death that was a result of sin was passed from Adam down to Moses generation even through those who had not yet sinned (speaking of newborns here)

Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Ro.7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

[themuzicman]

Originally Posted by Livelystone

Everything has to come from somewhere and the death that was a result of sin was passed from Adam down to Moses generation even through those who had not yet sinned (speaking of newborns here)

Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Ro.7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Still nothing here about inheritance. Yes, death reigned from Adam to Moses, but that doesn't imply direct inheritance, but rather continual existence.

[Livelystone]

Originally Posted by themuzicman

Still nothing here about inheritance. Yes, death reigned from Adam to Moses, but that doesn't imply direct inheritance, but rather continual existence.

The only people who have not sinned in the similitude of Adam's transgression is found in newborn babies, yet newborn babies are still being born under the curse of death. Sin is the curse {sting} of death! (1Cor.15:56)

How could newborn babies have this curse even though they had not yet committed any sins if they had not inherited it?

Blessings

Doug

[themuzicman]

Originally Posted by Livelystone

The only people who have not sinned in the similitude of Adam's transgression is found in newborn babies, yet newborn babies are still being born under the curse of death. Sin is the curse {sting} of death! (1Cor.15:56)

How could newborn babies have this curse even though they had not yet committed any sins if they had not inherited it?

Blessings

Doug

Because they are born into a sinful, corrupt world to sinful parents and ultimately a sinful culture and world. Thus they are cursed to sin.

[Livelystone]

Originally Posted by themuzicman

Because they are born into a sinful, corrupt world to sinful parents and ultimately a sinful culture and world. Thus they are cursed to sin.

Sounds like you are suggesting that you could take the baby away from their parents at birth and put them in a bubble and they would not need Jesus Christ? Are you suggesting that?

Now if you could take them away from their parents and their environment and if they would never need Jesus Christ there would be be some support for your argument.

Meanwhile and coming back to the truth of things, do a study on the word sin and you'll see that not only is it a verb that means it is a transgression of the law, it is also a noun that as the law of sin that Paul speaks of living in our members, is a principality that causes people to commit sins.

That is what was passed down to you from your earthly father who got it fom his father.

Blessings

Doug

[themuzicman]

Originally Posted by Livelystone

Sounds like you are suggesting that you could take the baby away from their parents at birth and put them in a bubble and they would not need Jesus Christ? Are you suggesting that?

Well, they'd die fairly shortly afterwards, so wouldn't ever really know.

Now if you could take them away from their parents and their environment and if they would never need Jesus Christ there would be be some support for your argument.

What are you going to do? Eject them into space?

Meanwhile and coming back to the truth of things, do a study on the word sin and you'll see that not only is it a verb that means it is a transgression of the law, it is also a noun that as the law of sin that Paul speaks of living in our members, is a principality that causes people to commit sins.

Again, no information on how it comes to "live in our members."

That is what was passed down to you from your earthly father who got it fom his father.

Ah, but the real question is how. I can say the same thing with the model I've proposed.

You've assumed the means, and then claim that it is biblical without support.

[Livelystone]

Originally Posted by themuzicman

Again, no information on how it comes to "live in our members."

Trying to get your point here; are you saying that there is no support for what Paul says and therefore it is not true?

[themuzicman]

Originally Posted by Livelystone

Trying to get your point here; are you saying that there is no support for what Paul says and therefore it is not true?

No. I'm saying that you are imposing your view on Paul's statements. Paul isn't intending to say that there is a direct inheritance from father to son, but rather that it is pervasive in our lives.

[Livelystone]

Originally Posted by themuzicman

No. I'm saying that you are imposing your view on Paul's statements. Paul isn't intending to say that there is a direct inheritance from father to son, but rather that it is pervasive in our lives.

Okay then what is it that is living in Paul's members that is bringing Paul captive to the law of sin, that he says is living in his members?

[themuzicman]

Originally Posted by Livelystone

Okay then what is it that is living in Paul's members that is bringing Paul captive to the law of sin, that he says is living in his members?

Rom 7:5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.

Effectively, the law arouses sinful passions which work in our members. To me, that defines "flesh", which we often interpret as "sinful nature."

This correlates nicely with the name of the tree that held the fruit that was eaten to cause the fall: The tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

This is supported by God's statement in Gen 3:

Gen 3:22 “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil.

So, effectively, knowledge of the law, of good and evil, arouses sinful passions in us, creating the flesh or the sinful "nature." It was caused by the fall, and all humans are aware of it. Thus, in the way that we reproduce and raise our children, that both the law and the sinful passions are passed on to children as we raise them, and sinful passions are raised up in them, as well.

And, when they sin, they embrace the sin of Adam, as well.

[Redeemed-777]

Of course, with spiritual truths there never is any real PROOF.
Spiritual truths are obtained only through spiritual revelation ... Sorry.
But, consider thou this ...

Let's look at the things the Holy Spirit accomplished when He "overshadowed" Mary:
-- Jesus had NO human father!
-- Jesus did NOT have our inherited sinful nature!
-- Jesus was the only human to NEVER sin!
-- Jesus was thus qualified to be the sacrificial Lamb to die in da place of us sinners!

Not bad for a short period of overshadowing!

Anyone need Scripture verses for all of this?

[Livelystone]

Originally Posted by themuzicman

Rom 7:5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.

Effectively, the law arouses sinful passions which work in our members. To me, that defines "flesh", which we often interpret as "sinful nature."

This correlates nicely with the name of the tree that held the fruit that was eaten to cause the fall: The tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

This is supported by God's statement in Gen 3:

Gen 3:22 “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil.

So, effectively, knowledge of the law, of good and evil, arouses sinful passions in us, creating the flesh or the sinful "nature." It was caused by the fall, and all humans are aware of it. Thus, in the way that we reproduce and raise our children, that both the law and the sinful passions are passed on to children as we raise them, and sinful passions are raised up in them, as well.

And, when they sin, they embrace the sin of Adam, as well.

God is a sevenfold Spirit and is the "us" spoken of in Genesis that is broken down for us to see as seven individual spirits in Isa.11:2, one of which is the spirit of counsel, because as the scriptures indicate God takes counsel within himself. Therefore, when Adam took counsel within himself instead of taking counsel from God as in obeying him, Adam became as “one of us”.

This became part of the fall not because man understood good and evil, but because man took counsel in himself instead of in God that resulted in his disobedience that continues to be the problem today as man continues to take counsel in himself instead of God, and therefore disobeys God.

Through Adam deliberately yielding to Satan, Satan gained the legal right to have his seed in Adam and God granted him (satan) that right when he said that the serpent would crawl on his belly over the earth consuming dust (what makes up our flesh) all the days of his life. Because Adam is formed from the earth the serpent seed is still in him (mankind) until this day.

Seeds in the Bible adhere to the law of the seed that means to come forth in the image of the fruit it originally came from. Therefore Adam having the seed of Satan within him leads him into sin and disobedience to God the same today as it did in the beginning.

This is why Paul says “in Adam all men die but in Christ all men may be made alive”.

Mankind a.k.a. Adam still has the serpent seed in them that Paul called the law of sin in Romans and later in Corinthians he calls it a thorn in his flesh that is the "messenger of Satan".

That my friend in Christ, is why Christians still sin today because they are still dealing with the serpent's seed, also known as the law of sin, and the thorn in the flesh, the same today as they did in the beginning and in Bible times.


Blessings

Doug