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May 8th, 2012, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
Please tell me you're not getting your information on the Founding Fathers from ultra liberal sources like PBS and the LA Times?
Are you saying they are lying? Thomas Jefferson was not a deist? I have read other sources as well. I just lnked those article as a quick review of Jefferson's religious views.
Your problem is not technology. The problem is YOU. You lack the will to change...You treat this planet as you treat each other. - Klaatu
What are you talking about? There is no such thing as the "Mafia"......it doesn't exist. Just a bunch of lies told to defame honest hardworking Italians like myself. - TomO
I will do you, let's see, goofy, wacky, and to the left side of the bell curve. -Ktoyou
I'm white. I'm not black. I can't convert to being black. It doesn't matter how much I want to become black. I could listen to rap and date fat white women all day; for all that, I'll still remain white.- Traditio
Last edited by The Berean; May 8th, 2012 at 01:08 PM.
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In a world with so many ready to hear, why waste words on the willfully deaf?
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May 8th, 2012, 12:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
As David Barton pointed out in the above video, Thomas Jefferson wasn't questioning the divinity of Jesus, he purely wanted to point out how great a moral code that He presented.
Barton is a terrible historian and every bit as given to manipulation of data as the wost liberal revisionist. He's been caught repeatedly presenting "facts" for which he has no actual support from primary sources. Barton's attempts to somehow make every American Founding Father into an orthodox Christian are every bit as inaccurate as those who wish to use the generalized anti-clerical sentiments of the period to transform them all into Deists.
Spend some time reading Jefferson's personal correspondence from late in life and you'll get a real sense of a person who had no religious faith of his own but saw religion as valuable for maintaining public order and morality.
"When the lights go out all over the world, when history seems headed only into a dead end and total disaster, God brings forth light. He changes the direction of history and regenerates men and redirects events and institutions to fulfill His purposes."
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love others as u love yourself... and thank God you dont have to like them
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May 8th, 2012, 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WandererInFog
Barton is a terrible historian and every bit as given to manipulation of data as the wost liberal revisionist. He's been caught repeatedly presenting "facts" for which he has no actual support from primary sources. Barton's attempts to somehow make every American Founding Father into an orthodox Christian are every bit as inaccurate as those who wish to use the generalized anti-clerical sentiments of the period to transform them all into Deists.
Spend some time reading Jefferson's personal correspondence from late in life and you'll get a real sense of a person who had no religious faith of his own but saw religion as valuable for maintaining public order and morality.
You do know that Jefferson created his own bible, called the Jefferson Bible, where he removed pretty much all the supernatural elements of the Bible? Jefferson also removed parts of the Gospels that he felt were errors on the part of the Gospel writers.
No, I didn't. Hitler did the same thing. Sort of. Idolators.
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You , too, can have an exciting and glamorous engineering career like me!
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May 8th, 2012, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by TruthSetsFree
at the end of his life TJ was fairly into Jesus
Was Jefferson "fairly into Jesus" simply as a great moral teacher or was he "fairly into Jesus" as his Lord and Savior?
Your problem is not technology. The problem is YOU. You lack the will to change...You treat this planet as you treat each other. - Klaatu
What are you talking about? There is no such thing as the "Mafia"......it doesn't exist. Just a bunch of lies told to defame honest hardworking Italians like myself. - TomO
I will do you, let's see, goofy, wacky, and to the left side of the bell curve. -Ktoyou
I'm white. I'm not black. I can't convert to being black. It doesn't matter how much I want to become black. I could listen to rap and date fat white women all day; for all that, I'll still remain white.- Traditio
Spend some time reading Jefferson's personal correspondence from late in life and you'll get a real sense of a person who had no religious faith of his own but saw religion as valuable for maintaining public order and morality.
Jefferson was a deist in the fullest sense, he may not have been a theist or a Christian theist but he did see God's work in nature.
Here is a letter that he wrote to John Adams late in his life.
it may be a long read but its well worth it. http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/P/tj3/writ...rf/jefl271.htm
Quote:
DEAR SIR,
-- The wishes expressed, in your last favor, that I may continue in life and health until I become a Calvinist, at least in his exclamation of _mon Dieu!_ jusque a quand'! would make me immortal. I can never oin Calvin in addressing _his god._ He was indeed an Atheist, which can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did. The being described in his 5. points is ot the God whom you and I acknolege and adore, the Creator and enevolent governor of the world; but a daemon of malignant spirit. It would be more pardonable to believe in no god at all, than to laspheme him by the atrocious attributes of Calvin. Indeed I think that every Christian sect gives a great handle to Atheism by their general dogma that, without a revelation, there would not be sufficient proof of the being of a god. Now one sixth of mankind only are supposed to be Christians: the other five sixths then, who do not believe in the Jewish and Christian revelation, are without a knolege of the existence of a god! This gives compleatly a gain de cause to the disciples of Ocellus, Timaeus, Spinosa, Diderot and D'Holbach. The argument which they rest on as triumphant and unanswerable is that, in every hypothesis of Cosmogony you must admit an eternal pre-existence of something; and according to the rule of sound philosophy, you are never to employ two principles to solve a difficulty when one will suffice. They say then that it is more simple to believe at once in the eternal pre-existence of the world, as it is now going on, and may for ever go on by the principle of reproduction which we see and witness, than to believe in the eternal pre-existence of an ulterior cause, or Creator of the world, a being whom we see not, and know not, of whose form substance and mode or place of existence, or of action no sense informs us, no power of the mind enables us to delineate or comprehend. On the contrary I hold (without appeal to revelation) that when we take a view of the Universe, in it's parts general or particular, it is impossible for the human mind not to percieve and feel a conviction of design, consummate skill, and indefinite power in every atom of it's composition. The movements of the heavenly bodies, so exactly held in their course by the balance of centrifugal and centripetal forces, the structure of our earth itself, with it's distribution of lands, waters and atmosphere, animal and vegetable bodies, examined in all their minutest particles, insects mere atoms of life, yet as perfectly organised as man or mammoth, the mineral substances, their generation and uses, it is impossible, I say, for the human mind not to believe that there is, in all this, design, cause and effect, up to an ultimate cause, a fabricator of all things from matter and motion, their preserver and regulator while permitted to exist in their present forms, and their regenerator into new and other forms. We see, too, evident proofs of the necessity of a superintending power to maintain the Universe in it's course and order. Stars, well known, have disappeared, new ones have come into view, comets, in their incalculable courses, may run foul of suns and planets and require renovation under other laws; certain races of animals are become extinct; and, were there no restoring power, all existences might extinguish successively, one by one, until all should be reduced to a shapeless chaos. So irresistible are these evidences of an intelligent and powerful Agent that, of the infinite numbers of men who have existed thro' all time, they have believed, in the proportion of a million at least to Unit, in the hypothesis of an eternal pre-existence of a creator, rather than in that of a self-existent Universe. Surely this unanimous sentiment renders this more probable than that of the few in the other hypothesis. Some early Christians indeed have believed in the coeternal pre-existance of both the Creator and the world, without changing their relation of cause and effect. That this was the opinion of St. Thomas, we are informed by Cardinal Toleto, in these words `Deus ab aeterno fuit jam omnipotens, sicut *** produxit mundum. Ab aeterno potuit producere mundum. -- Si sol ab aeterno esset, lumen ab aeterno esset; et si pes, similiter vestigium. At lumen et vestigium effectus sunt efficientis solis et pedis; potuit ergo *** causa aeterna effectus coaeterna esse. Cujus sententiae est S. Thomas Theologorum primus' Cardinal Toleta.
Of the nature of this being we know nothing. Jesus tells us that `God is a spirit.' 4. John 24. but without defining what a spirit is {pneyma o Theos}. Down to the 3d. century we know that it was still deemed material; but of a lighter subtler matter than our gross bodies. So says Origen. `Deus igitur, cui anima similis est, juxta Originem, reapte corporalis est; sed graviorum tantum ratione corporum incorporeus.' These are the words of Huet in his commentary on Origen. Origen himself says `appelatio {asomaton} apud nostros scriptores est inusitata et incognita.' So also Tertullian `quis autem negabit Deum esse corpus, etsi deus spiritus? Spiritus etiam corporis sui generis, in sua effigie.' Tertullian. These two fathers were of the 3d. century. Calvin's character of this supreme being seems chiefly copied from that of the Jews. But the reformation of these blasphemous attributes, and substitution of those more worthy, pure and sublime, seems to have been the chief object of Jesus in his discources to the Jews: and his doctrine of the Cosmogony of the world is very clearly laid down in the 3 first verses of the 1st. chapter of John, in these words, `{en arche en o logos, kai o logos en pros ton Theon kai Theos en o logos. `otos en en arche pros ton Theon. Panta de ayto egeneto, kai choris ayto egeneto ode en, o gegonen}. Which truly translated means `in the beginning God existed, and reason (or mind) was with God, and that mind was God. This was in the beginning with God. All things were created by it, and without it was made not one thing which was made'. Yet this text, so plainly declaring the doctrine of Jesus that the world was created by the supreme, intelligent being, has been perverted by modern Christians to build up a second person of their tritheism by a mistranslation of the word {logos}. One of it's legitimate meanings indeed is `a word.' But, in that sense, it makes an unmeaning jargon: while the other meaning `reason', equally legitimate, explains rationally the eternal preexistence of God, and his creation of the world. Knowing how incomprehensible it was that `a word,' the mere action or articulation of the voice and organs of speech could create a world, they undertake to make of this articulation a second preexisting being, and ascribe to him, and not to God, the creation of the universe. The Atheist here plumes himself on the uselessness of such a God, and the simpler hypothesis of a self-existent universe. The truth is that the greatest enemies to the doctrines of Jesus are those calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them for the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human errors.
Are you saying they are lying? Thomas Jefferson was not a deist? I have read other sources as well. I just lnked those article as a quick review of Jefferson's religious views.
Yes, I am saying that the left wing government owned media is lying.
"Smoking cannabis makes people more intelligent."
Dope smoker and attempted Presidential assassin Oscar Romero Ortega-Hernandez
Barton is a terrible historian and every bit as given to manipulation of data as the wost liberal revisionist. He's been caught repeatedly presenting "facts" for which he has no actual support from primary sources. Barton's attempts to somehow make every American Founding Father into an orthodox Christian are every bit as inaccurate as those who wish to use the generalized anti-clerical sentiments of the period to transform them all into Deists.
Spend some time reading Jefferson's personal correspondence from late in life and you'll get a real sense of a person who had no religious faith of his own but saw religion as valuable for maintaining public order and morality.
Slogan/motto:
love others as u love yourself... and thank God you dont have to like them
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May 9th, 2012, 08:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick M
No, I didn't. Hitler did the same thing. Sort of. Idolators.
as usual... lies... ubiquitous in history writers (who are not Catholic or virtual Catholic... meaning fearful of lying because God is watching all the time...)
Jefferson did not make his own Bible
he gathered what he thought were the most important parts of scripture... the Words of Jesus and put them into a book that he kept for himself... i've never heard of it being published and i dont think it was... have reead a few books on J
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You , too, can have an exciting and glamorous engineering career like me!
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May 9th, 2012, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by TruthSetsFree
am i God???
(thanks 4 the compliment)
You thought I was comparing you to God! I asked you what do you mean that Jefferson was "fairly into Jesus"? If you can't answer this question then just say so. I hope you don't believe that Jefferson was a Bible believing Christian.
Your problem is not technology. The problem is YOU. You lack the will to change...You treat this planet as you treat each other. - Klaatu
What are you talking about? There is no such thing as the "Mafia"......it doesn't exist. Just a bunch of lies told to defame honest hardworking Italians like myself. - TomO
I will do you, let's see, goofy, wacky, and to the left side of the bell curve. -Ktoyou
I'm white. I'm not black. I can't convert to being black. It doesn't matter how much I want to become black. I could listen to rap and date fat white women all day; for all that, I'll still remain white.- Traditio
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love others as u love yourself... and thank God you dont have to like them
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May 9th, 2012, 09:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Berean
You thought I was comparing you to God! I asked you what do you mean that Jefferson was "fairly into Jesus"? If you can't answer this question then just say so. I hope you don't believe that Jefferson was a Bible believing Christian.
according to my best info he was
only God knows, right??
sounds like we are entering into GOD's domain here..
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love others as u love yourself... and thank God you dont have to like them
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May 9th, 2012, 09:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffblue101
Jefferson was a deist in the fullest sense, he may not have been a theist or a Christian theist but he did see God's work in nature.
Here is a letter that he wrote to John Adams late in his life.
it may be a long read but its well worth it. http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/P/tj3/writ...rf/jefl271.htm
i copied and pasted the letter from J Adams to read later
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You , too, can have an exciting and glamorous engineering career like me!
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May 9th, 2012, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by TruthSetsFree
according to my best info he was
Please present this "best info". It is common knowledge that Jefferson's religious beliefs tended towards deism.
Quote:
only God knows, right??
sounds like we are entering into GOD's domain here..
only HE knows ANYONE
Ok, then I guess we don't know whether Christopher Hitchens was a Christian or not? How about Richard Dawkins? Can we know if he is a Christian or not?
Your problem is not technology. The problem is YOU. You lack the will to change...You treat this planet as you treat each other. - Klaatu
What are you talking about? There is no such thing as the "Mafia"......it doesn't exist. Just a bunch of lies told to defame honest hardworking Italians like myself. - TomO
I will do you, let's see, goofy, wacky, and to the left side of the bell curve. -Ktoyou
I'm white. I'm not black. I can't convert to being black. It doesn't matter how much I want to become black. I could listen to rap and date fat white women all day; for all that, I'll still remain white.- Traditio
Last edited by The Berean; May 10th, 2012 at 03:35 PM.
I have read other sources as well. I just lnked those article as a quick review of Jefferson's religious views.
- TomO
-Ktoyou
I asked you what do you mean that Jefferson was "fairly into Jesus"? If you can't answer this question then just say so. I hope you don't believe that Jefferson was a Bible believing Christian.
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