[Desert Reign]

Originally Posted by kmoney

I have a thread about mercy and justice being mutually exclusive. I believe they are.

I don't believe this is a good argument against the Christian God though.

Surely there are numerous indications that God is just and that he is merciful? Intuitively, these are both good things and therefore cannot be mutually exclusive.

[kmoney]

Originally Posted by Desert Reign

Surely there are numerous indications that God is just and that he is merciful? Intuitively, these are both good things and therefore cannot be mutually exclusive.

God is just and merciful, but not at the same time with the same person.

[Desert Reign]

Originally Posted by kmoney

God is just and merciful, but not at the same time with the same person.

Ah, yes. I agree with that. Well put.

[WandererInFog]

Originally Posted by organiccornflake

How can a god be both wholly just and merciful, if mercy is the suspension of justice?

The opposite of justice isn't mercy, but rather injustice.

Let's says you've stolen something from me, and we go before a judge.

Justice would mean that the judge demands you make restitution.

Injustice would mean the judge either handing down a punishment beyond what is reasonable for the item was that was stolen or no punishment at all.

Mercy comes after justice. It's me saying that even though you owe me that amount, I'm going to forgive that debt.

[Clete]

Originally Posted by Letsargue

Come on!!! – Does your little trick make void what I said?

Well, yes. Actually it does. The bible simply does not teach that it is wrong to judge people. It teaches that it is wrong to be a hypocrite.

Or is it your custom to just say that anything can nullify anything you want it to nullify!!!

I quoted you scripture. We are not talking about my personal opinion.
Besides, if you've read hardly any of my posts, you'll note that I do not believe that simply saying something makes it so. That is, unless you're Jesus, then saying it makes it so. Thus the use of red letters in my quotation of John 7:24.

Jesus said a LOT OF STUFF, and He also didn’t say a LOT OF STUFF. – SO, let me do this to your stuff, > GOD said that in the BEGINNING was the Word, and that Word was JESUS. Therefore, the Voice of Jesus said what I said before you SOOO foolishly tried to correct me with your own trick. Or am I wrong!!!

It wasn't a trick and yes, you are wrong.

I don't know what to tell you. The bible simply does not teach that it is wrong to judge people. Moses didn't teach it, Jesus didn't teach it, the Twelve didn't teach it, Paul didn't teach it - NOBODY in the bible taught it!

The Truth has always been, and YOU CANNOT NULLIFY IT WITH ANY OTHER TRUTH!! – Is that not the TRUTH?

Of course! But contradictions do not exist. Either Jesus taught that it is wrong to judge or He taught to judge rightly. If He taught both then he is a liar and a fool and our faith is in vain. But He did not teach both, He never taught anyone that it was wrong to judge - per se. What He taught was that it is wrong to be a hypocrite, which, of course, is not only true but fully consistent with all of His other teachings and the teachings of the whole of Scripture.

And since that teaching was a primary premise of your point, your point is thereby falsified on that basis. Now if you wish to support your point based upon some other premise then I'll take pleasure in blasting that to bits as well for it is a fearful thing to fall into the hand of the living God, not the hand of man, the hand of the living God, of which there is only one.

Deuteronomy 9:7 “Remember! Do not forget how you provoked the LORD your God to wrath in the wilderness. From the day that you departed from the land of Egypt until you came to this place, you have been rebellious against the LORD.

Deuteronomy 32:41 If I whet My glittering sword, And My hand takes hold on judgment, I will render vengeance to My enemies, And repay those who hate Me.

Deuteronomy 32:43 “Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people; For He will avenge the blood of His servants, And render vengeance to His adversaries; He will provide atonement for His land and His people.”

2 Kings 22:17 because they have forsaken Me and burned incense to other gods, that they might provoke Me to anger with all the works of their hands. Therefore My wrath shall be aroused against this place and shall not be quenched.’”’

Isaiah 1:24 Therefore the Lord says, The LORD of hosts, the Mighty One of Israel, “Ah, I will rid Myself of My adversaries, And take vengeance on My enemies.

There's five of what has to be about a thousand verses that blow your silly idea out of the water. Just wrath is as godly a concept as there can be, for God said repeatedly that "vengeance is mine, I will repay".

Resting in Him,
Clete

[kmoney]

Originally Posted by Desert Reign

Ah, yes. I agree with that. Well put.

I'm glad you agree with that. But to go farther, I would say that if God grants salvation to someone, it isn't because he has punished someone else in their place. To me, that isn't true mercy or forgiveness.

Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

[WandererInFog]

Originally Posted by kmoney

I'm glad you agree with that. But to go farther, I would say that if God grants salvation to someone, it isn't because he has punished someone else in their place. To me, that isn't true mercy or forgiveness.

And yet the Scriptures say:

Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, “This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you.” And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship. Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

(Hebrews 9:15-22 ESV)

[Bradley D]

Even though God would be just in sending me to hell for my past sins. God has been merciful to me for my repentance and belief in His Son my Lord Jesus Christ.

[Letsargue]

Originally Posted by Clete

Well, yes. Actually it does. The bible simply does not teach that it is wrong to judge people. It teaches that it is wrong to be a hypocrite.


I quoted you scripture. We are not talking about my personal opinion.
Besides, if you've read hardly any of my posts, you'll note that I do not believe that simply saying something makes it so. That is, unless you're Jesus, then saying it makes it so. Thus the use of red letters in my quotation of John 7:24.


It wasn't a trick and yes, you are wrong.

I don't know what to tell you. The bible simply does not teach that it is wrong to judge people. Moses didn't teach it, Jesus didn't teach it, the Twelve didn't teach it, Paul didn't teach it - NOBODY in the bible taught it!


Of course! But contradictions do not exist. Either Jesus taught that it is wrong to judge or He taught to judge rightly. If He taught both then he is a liar and a fool and our faith is in vain. But He did not teach both, He never taught anyone that it was wrong to judge - per se. What He taught was that it is wrong to be a hypocrite, which, of course, is not only true but fully consistent with all of His other teachings and the teachings of the whole of Scripture.

And since that teaching was a primary premise of your point, your point is thereby falsified on that basis. Now if you wish to support your point based upon some other premise then I'll take pleasure in blasting that to bits as well for it is a fearful thing to fall into the hand of the living God, not the hand of man, the hand of the living God, of which there is only one.

Deuteronomy 9:7 “Remember! Do not forget how you provoked the LORD your God to wrath in the wilderness. From the day that you departed from the land of Egypt until you came to this place, you have been rebellious against the LORD.

Deuteronomy 32:41 If I whet My glittering sword, And My hand takes hold on judgment, I will render vengeance to My enemies, And repay those who hate Me.

Deuteronomy 32:43 “Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people; For He will avenge the blood of His servants, And render vengeance to His adversaries; He will provide atonement for His land and His people.”

2 Kings 22:17 because they have forsaken Me and burned incense to other gods, that they might provoke Me to anger with all the works of their hands. Therefore My wrath shall be aroused against this place and shall not be quenched.’”’

Isaiah 1:24 Therefore the Lord says, The LORD of hosts, the Mighty One of Israel, “Ah, I will rid Myself of My adversaries, And take vengeance on My enemies.

There's five of what has to be about a thousand verses that blow your silly idea out of the water. Just wrath is as godly a concept as there can be, for God said repeatedly that "vengeance is mine, I will repay".

Resting in Him,
Clete

No I'm not wrong, I JUST disagree with YOU, and YOU disagree with the Truth!!

Truth teaches to judge righteous judgment. The word “Righteous Judgment” doesn’t mean to judge as did you and your friends who judged Jesus and sent Him to the Cross. Righteous Judgment is the judgment that even the Righteous Angels do judgment. Judgment is to first begin at the Church, but “righteous judgment”. -- But the foolhardy garbage that contradicts God and Justice and LOVE is made for hell!! AND YES!! – I say YOU and your friendly spirits. Those who contradict the Truth, or reject Truth / CHRIST. – To reject Truth IS TO CRUCIFY CHRIST!! - There has only been one set of fools who truly rejected Jesus and killed Him; the Devil’s children / the Lost, and they never stop crucifying Christ!!

Paul – 051812