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infallibility is misunderstood by just about everyone
when Peter was given the keys, he was also given the power to bind and loose, which means the power to make changes that will be honored in heaven
so
what the pope does may not always be right
but
must be accepted as right
So covering up child rape must be accepted as right.
I think
the bulldozers should start with
the palaces
at the rear of the Vatican, including the papal
apartments
then proceed systematically to tear apart
the religious
themepark in which this evil pope resides
leaving
the Sistine chapel as a testament to the art
of the
homosexual who painted it.
In his trial for human rights abuse
the dictator
of the non-country that is the Vatican suburb
of Rome
should be afforded with great care all his human rights
to show him
what a colossal blight on humanity his inhumanity
and the inhumanity
of this hysterical...uh...historical church has been.
We are witnessing the death throes of this immoral, fascist, abusive church. That is the good news of Jesus.
Slogan/motto:
It's only the fairy tales they believe.
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May 10th, 2012, 08:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zippy2006
They are one and the same in this context. In order for a group of human beings to continue it must have a head that has authority to make certain decisions and be a tiebreaker, etc. In order for that group to avoid error that individual must be infallible.
That's why every human organization has a pope. Because we need an infallible leader to continue.
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Originally Posted by zippy2006
The words are just confirmation of a tradition that precedes their propagation.
Published by the organization that most directly benefits.
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Originally Posted by zippy2006
And when heathen logic is the relevant logic we won't.
Such as when you ask me to draw an inference, say?
Eternal life is an easy promise to make and a hard one to fulfill.
Slogan/motto:
Luke 9:23 Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me."
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May 10th, 2012, 08:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rexlunae
That's why every human organization has a pope. Because we need an infallible leader to continue.
An organization requires authority to exist, but it will be fallible unless that authority is infallible. We need the president, but he may lead us astray.
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Published by the organization that most directly benefits.
The accusation here isn't remotely supportable. Those verses are well established by the great majority of Biblical scholars. Some may interpret them differently, some may throw out Matthew or claim he wrote later, but the verses stand.
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Such as when you ask me to draw an inference, say?
You are speaking in a Christian context, you therefore must assume at least some of the Christian premises.
"If a sheerly linguistic version of the gospel could be concocted, it would merely so be no longer the gospel. In the Lutheran Reformation’s understanding, which we believe in this matter to be correct, the sacraments make the inalienable externality of the gospel message and therefore are necessary to the authenticity of that message." (Christian Dogmatics [1984], II:302-303 as cited in Pontifications)
Slogan/motto:
Success is a journey, not a destination. So stop running.
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May 12th, 2012, 10:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrysostom
infallibility is misunderstood by just about everyone
when Peter was given the keys, he was also given the power to bind and loose, which means the power to make changes that will be honored in heaven
so
what the pope does may not always be right
but
must be accepted as right
That is an interesting.
Can you give an example of something that the Pope could declare which is wrong but we accept as right?
Slogan/motto:
Success is a journey, not a destination. So stop running.
Reputation:
May 12th, 2012, 10:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zippy2006
So the church doesn't fall apart as it naturally has in Protestantism. So evil does not prevail (Mt 16:18).
The office of the papacy is actually fairly clear from tradition and scripture.
I think the Church is the infallible thing. Oh, I'm a Catholic btw.
I guess I misunderstood your post. I thought you were saying there is a necessity for an infallible entity at a more fundamental level. Not just as a way to ensure unity.
Suppose you are a blind and deaf man. Suppose you are looking for a penny. And suppose someone takes you by the hand. Do you assume that they're trying to help you find the penny? You have no way of knowing what their intentions are.
That's entirely right. I have no way of knowing. This is one of the reasons why revealed religion is based on faith, not on reason alone.
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We're pretty far afield of my original objection, which was basically just to the seeming suggestion that even if that Catholic Church was wrong you'd continue to follow them because no one else claims to be infallible.
I've answered this repeatedly. Were it the case that the Catholic Church were wrong, then we should not follow Her. That said, we have no way of knowing whether or not she is right or wrong. We must take it on faith that She does not and cannot err.
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Why not?
Because I'm blind and deaf.
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You're blind and deaf. How do you use a cell phone?
But isn't it a perfect analogy? I have a cell phone. I can feel it. I can press the buttons. I can hope that the call goes through and that the man in question can hear my pleas for help. But I'm blind and deaf. I have no assurance that help is coming. I can only hope that our man has heard me, and that he has sent help.
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That's a lot to grant in order to come out the other side with nothing but a hypothetical certainty.
That's all we have.
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Name one thing you've done that warrants eternal punishment.
I could name several things that I've done that warrants eternal punishment. I won't name many of them, either because of 1. the severity of my sins or 2. because of the shame I feel for them. Most of my bad sins really are just that bad.
In general, though:
I struggle greatly with sins against temperance/chastity.
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If his mercy and charity are so great that he would act with absolutely nothing to gain, why does he extend them to so few people? Are you just that much better than everyone else who don't receive his mercy?
He extends it to everyone and He desires that everyone be saved. Most people [at least, seemingly] reject Him. I don't claim that I am better than anyone or that I deserve His mercy whereas others don't. On the contrary, I confess that I am a worse sinner than most people, and that I am completely undeserving of God's mercy.
[Nor do I claim that I am "assured" in any sense of going to Heaven. I deserve Hell and there's a very real chance that, when it's all said and done, I'll have rejected God's mercy and gone to Hell.
But He doesn't want me to go there and I certainly hope that I don't.]
The reason that He extends His graces is simply out of charity: He loves us and He wants us to be happy; He wants us to rejoice with Him, know Him and love Him forever and ever.
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And you ignored the most important part of the quoted text, so I'll repeat it for you to answer. What's another word for a mostly-infallible system? Fallible.
I grant this, but I don't grant that the Church is "mostly infallible."
When a Man Lies He Murders
Some Part of the World
These Are the Pale Deaths Which
Men Miscall Their Lives
All this I Cannot Bear
to Witness Any Longer
Cannot the Kingdom of Salvation
Take Me Home
what the pope does may not always be right
but
must be accepted as right
sounds a bit reletivistic to me
Orthodoxy is just the Tyranny of the Majority, a Spiritual Despotism where accepted doctrine is Sacred, Untouchable self-evident truth no matter how absurd it may be.
Slogan/motto:
Luke 9:23 Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me."
Reputation:
May 13th, 2012, 12:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleekster
sounds a bit reletivistic to me
It's also incorrect as far as Catholic theology is concerned.
"If a sheerly linguistic version of the gospel could be concocted, it would merely so be no longer the gospel. In the Lutheran Reformation’s understanding, which we believe in this matter to be correct, the sacraments make the inalienable externality of the gospel message and therefore are necessary to the authenticity of that message." (Christian Dogmatics [1984], II:302-303 as cited in Pontifications)
So the church doesn't fall apart as it naturally has in Protestantism.
would this be the same tired Cruciform-ism of how there's 38,000+ different protestant denominations[not incl. all of the so called heresies that you guys supposedly stamped out that were reborn via protestantism] or do you have something else in mind.
the RCC has been in decline for over 400 years now so that's kind of like the pot calling the kettle black.
Orthodoxy is just the Tyranny of the Majority, a Spiritual Despotism where accepted doctrine is Sacred, Untouchable self-evident truth no matter how absurd it may be.
Slogan/motto:
For as much as it depends on you, live at peace with others.
Reputation:
May 15th, 2012, 05:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrysostom
good question
and
that is what bind and loose means
to change things
the pope is like the umpire
somebody has to make the call
and
you get thrown out
if
you challenge it
Your Pope (and the previous one), by turning a blind eye, encouraged additional pedophile abuse in your church... there needs to be a referee to throw your Pope out.
If your church had such a mechanism to cast out blatantly sinful Popes, bishops and priests. Your church would have a much better reputation and just might actually be fit to serve the Lord someday.
I don't think Jesus ever created a mafiaesque old boys club and would be appalled at what goes on at the Vatican.
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