Exclusively Christian TheologyThis forum is exclusively for those who consider themselves Christian and consider the Bible to be the inspired word of God.
Slogan/motto:
Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Reputation:
May 18th, 2012, 02:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple7
How is it that the Father's deity is directly interchangable with Jesus' deity in the Book of Revelation?
You are not studing my posts.
Jesus Diety is His Fathers Diety.
They are united forever in His resurrection.
and were from time to time doing the same during His ministry.
Slogan/motto:
Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Reputation:
May 18th, 2012, 02:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lon
I think you missed his point. He was saying it was ridiculous that I'm paying to learn about 'his Father.' It was a personal slam. ▲Reread▲
Read my posts again.
My point was that your claiming to be speaking the truth because you paid good money for it and others are wrong because they did not, is ridiculous.
Didn't you say it would "soon" be time to spread this great message that trinitarians couldn't? Or words to that effect?
I'll ask you again, more politely. Why is "soon" more appropriate than the last 46 years? Since you can't be assured you'll even be alive tomorrow, shouldn't you have been preaching the Gospel 46 years prior to "soon"?
Again, it was not evil...even if it was rude or insensitive. What is evil is spreading satan's message that Jesus Christ is not God... worthy of all worship and Glory.
Exactly! Anti-Trinitarians deny the glory of Jesus Christ and Paul said that the gospel is about the glory of Jesus Christ.
whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
In context the terms "glory" and "image of God" in reference to Jesus is that visible Shekinah glory that Moses hid when he put a veil over his face hiding God's glory 2 Corinthians 3:10-4:4. The word "image" simply means "visible" here.
Paul was identifying Christ as the "glory and image of God" with the glory of God that Moses veiled. Paul was saying that just as the veil over Moses' face hid God's Shekinah glory, so the God of this age is blinding the minds of men to the glory of Christ which is the SAME glory. All anti-Trinitarians are being blinded by the God of this age whether they be JW or Jew or Muslim or whatever.
The gospel is about Christ's person as the shekinah glory of God. But the anti-trins deny that Christ is the shekinah glory of God. Therefore, they deny the gospel itself and are damned.
Exactly! Anti-Trinitarians deny the glory of Jesus Christ and Paul said that the gospel is about the glory of Jesus Christ.
The gospel is about Christ's person as the shekinah glory of God. But the anti-trins deny that Christ is the shekinah glory of God. Therefore, they deny the gospel itself and are damned.
We do? I don't deny Christ's glory. I believe Jesus is one with the Father, and they are God. That doesn't mean I'm trinitarian - I don't accept all the other stuff the doctrine pushes on us - it's not scriptural and therefore leads man away from the glory of God, and from following Christ back to God.
We do? I don't deny Christ's glory. I believe Jesus is one with the Father, and they are God. That doesn't mean I'm trinitarian - I don't accept all the other stuff the doctrine pushes on us - it's not scriptural and therefore leads man away from the glory of God, and from following Christ back to God.
You already posted 'scripture' from your prophet's opus stating the Trinity, brother!
Again, scripture that says there is one God is not "stating the Trinity" in any shape or form. It is stating monotheism. Are Modalists Trinitarians? I think you had better learn what the doctrine of the trinity is all about before you go around accusing everybody who believes in one God of being Trinitarian.
Here is an example. The very word Trinity with respect to God is said to have first been used by Tertullian in Against Praxeus, Chp. 3 where he said: "They are constantly throwing out against us that we are preachers of two gods and three gods, while they take to themselves pre-eminently the credit of being worshippers of the One God; just as if the Unity itself with irrational deductions did not produce heresy, and the Trinity rationally considered constitute the truth." He was the progenitor of the use of the word consubstantiality (one substance) used by the Nicene Creed. Yet, Tertullian, widely considered by orthodoxy to be one of the "Fathers" of the church, would have been anesthematized under the creed because in Against Hermogenes, he declared there was a time when the Son did not exist. So you see that under the modern definition of trinitarianism the very founder of it would be ex-communicated. What a hoot! Maybe trinitarians should learn from this, and accept the fact that the doctrine of the trinity did not come from God. (Except for the fact that he stated because the people did not love the truth made manifest in Christ, he would send strong delusion, that they should believe a lie)
Last edited by RevTestament; May 18th, 2012 at 02:48 PM.
You've just been hit with the Trinity stun gun! -
May 18th, 2012, 05:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RevTestament
Again, scripture that says there is one God is not "stating the Trinity" in any shape or form. It is stating monotheism. Are Modalists Trinitarians? I think you had better learn what the doctrine of the trinity is all about before you go around accusing everybody who believes in one God of being Trinitarian.
The very verse you posited from your prophet's opus states plainly that true doctrine consists of the Father, Son, & Spirit which 'IS' one God....not 'are' one God!
How much clearer can it be, brother?
How much longer can you look the other way?
Quote:
Here is an example. The very word Trinity with respect to God is said to have first been used by Tertullian in Against Praxeus, Chp. 3 where he said: "They are constantly throwing out against us that we are preachers of two gods and three gods, while they take to themselves pre-eminently the credit of being worshippers of the One God; just as if the Unity itself with irrational deductions did not produce heresy, and the Trinity rationally considered constitute the truth." He was the progenitor of the use of the word consubstantiality (one substance) used by the Nicene Creed. Yet, Tertullian, widely considered by orthodoxy to be one of the "Fathers" of the church, would have been anesthematized under the creed because in Against Hermogenes, he declared there was a time when the Son did not exist. So you see that under the modern definition of trinitarianism the very founder of it would be ex-communicated. What a hoot! Maybe trinitarians should learn from this, and accept the fact that the doctrine of the trinity did not come from God. (Except for the fact that he stated because the people did not love the truth made manifest in Christ, he would send strong delusion, that they should believe a lie)
So...now you have reduced your position down to plaigarizing others' work?
Where are the scriptures denouncing the Trinity?
Show me one Biblical verse which is not already comprehended by the Trinity.
Slogan/motto:
Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Reputation:
May 18th, 2012, 09:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple7
If you admit to Jesus' deity, then do you likewise worship Him as God?
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Quote:
What about before His resurrection - in which Jesus raised Himself?
Jesus did not raise Himself.
Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
Slogan/motto:
Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Reputation:
May 18th, 2012, 09:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wile E. Coyote
Exactly! Anti-Trinitarians deny the glory of Jesus Christ and Paul said that the gospel is about the glory of Jesus Christ.
whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
In context the terms "glory" and "image of God" in reference to Jesus is that visible Shekinah glory that Moses hid when he put a veil over his face hiding God's glory 2 Corinthians 3:10-4:4. The word "image" simply means "visible" here.
Paul was identifying Christ as the "glory and image of God" with the glory of God that Moses veiled. Paul was saying that just as the veil over Moses' face hid God's Shekinah glory, so the God of this age is blinding the minds of men to the glory of Christ which is the SAME glory. All anti-Trinitarians are being blinded by the God of this age whether they be JW or Jew or Muslim or whatever.
The gospel is about Christ's person as the shekinah glory of God. But the anti-trins deny that Christ is the shekinah glory of God. Therefore, they deny the gospel itself and are damned.
Fine.
I won,t be seeing you where I am going.
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
Slogan/motto:
Ecclesiastes 1:9 ---
The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Reputation:
May 18th, 2012, 09:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy afternoon
Jesus did not raise Himself.
God the Father raised Jesus (Acts 2:24, 32; 3:15, 26; 4:10; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30, 33, 34, 37; Rom. 4:24; 6:4; 10:9; 1 Cor. 6:14; Gal. 1:1; Col. 2:12).
The Holy Spirit is somehow involved in the resurrection of Jesus (Romans 8:11; Romans 1:4).
The Son Himself lays down His life and takes it up again — John 10:17-18
It seems as though all of the Trinity is involved in the Resurrection.
My point was that your claiming to be speaking the truth because you paid good money for it and others are wrong because they did not, is ridiculous.
LA
You mean like playing doctor without an MD? Or practicing law without making the bar? Or flying a plane without flight instruction? Teaching school without credentials?
Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever. Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. - Let's at least work at it?
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Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
Slogan/motto:
II Timothy 2:15, Psalms 6:5, I John 3:1-2, Romans 5:1 I John 4:18, I Timothy 2:4-5, II Corinthians 9:8,11, III John 2
Reputation:
May 18th, 2012, 09:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lon
You mean like playing doctor without an MD? Or practicing law without making the bar? Or flying a plane without flight instruction? Teaching school without credentials?
No, like believing like child.
oatmeal
"And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42
"For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" Psalm 6:5
You mean like playing doctor without an MD? Or practicing law without making the bar? Or flying a plane without flight instruction? Teaching school without credentials?
Are you suggesting Mormons'... Jehove witnesses and Catholic Priest ... have earned some special previlige above any lay person by paying to learn what their seminary required them to believe to get that Degree!
WOW.... According to your logic, any Calvinist with a PHD in Theology has superior credentials over YOU! No, let's make it one better... Any non-trinitarian with a degree higher than you.
Truth, does not come with a degree... In fact, it's ... fraud! You already know! You can't buy truth.... It's not for sale in any seminary.
If truth came with a degree then... Calvinist ; Mormons ; Catholic Priest ; Baptist ; Jehove witnesses ; and non-denominational Churches would all have it!
Paul
From the cowardice that shrinks from new truth,
From the laziness that is content with half-truths,
From the arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Oh God of Truth, deliver us.
~ Ancient Prayer
Are you suggesting Mormons'... Jehove witnesses and Catholic Priest ... have earned some special previlige above any lay person by paying to learn what their seminary required them to believe to get that Degree!
WOW.... According to your logic, any Calvinist with a PHD in Theology has superior credentials over YOU! No, let's make it one better... Any non-trinitarian with a degree higher than you.
Yes, and you. Does that bother you that I think he/she has a few things over us?
I'd actually be asking questions, not debating him. Though I disagree, he's had more intense study.
Greg Boyd is a PhD Open Theist. I disagree with him. If he were here posting, I'd expect a few other PhD's to engage him. It would be ridiculous for you and I not to sit back and watch. Some PhD's, are exceptions to the rule in every academic area. We wonder why and how they have a degree. I'm not talking about the few exceptions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierac
Truth, does not come with a degree... In fact, it's ... fraud! You already know! You can't buy truth.... It's not for sale in any seminary.
Uhhmm, yes it does.
If you want to know the 'truth' about rocket science --> education degree. If you want to know 'truth' about quantum physics --> education degree.
If you want to know the 'truth' about human anatomy and surgery --> education degree.
If you want to teach philosophy truths --> degree.
If you want to create tall buildings --> degree.
If you want to teach Bible --> No degree???▼
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierac
If truth came with a degree then... Calvinist ; Mormons ; Catholic Priest ; Baptist ; Jehove witnesses ; and non-denominational Churches would all have it!
Paul
▲yeah, go figure right?▲ A couple of them above do not require it. Would you want them operating on you? Designing a skyscrapper?
Calculating where our next billion dollar rocket is sent?
and to me, where it stops making any reasonable sense... On the most important thing in life - teaching your children? Nephews? Neices?
Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever. Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. - Let's at least work at it?
*************************************
Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
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