Why do Christians believe that the messiah must be God Himself?
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Slogan/motto:
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
Reputation:
May 14th, 2012, 02:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gill White
Thanks Elia,
What goods did Jesus not deliver, and what prophecies, did Jesus not fulfill?
Bs'd
Here are a few messianic prophecies, NOT fulfilled by JC:
Micha 5:2-9; "But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for NOW shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off."
Here we have very clearly physical redemption from earthly enemies: "And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword", "Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off." These are very clear verses that can not be misinterpreted; when the messiah comes the Jewish enemies are going to be slaughtered. And the one coming forth from Bethlehem is to be a ruler in Israel, that is a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but not a wandering preacher and miracle healer.
Zacheriah 9:9-10; "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."
They say that he did ride on a donkey, like the whole Middle East in those days, but that is where it stops. He did not bring any peace, the battle bow, the horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not cut off from Jerusalem, and his dominion was not from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any dominion at all.
In order to get around this problem, the Christian church invented the "second coming". However, nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures is it written that the messiah would come once, get himself killed, and come again in a second coming. This is a pure rationalization of Jesus' failure to function in any way as a messiah. Nowhere in any of the above prophecies does it indicate that there will be a gap of at least 2000 years between the birth of the messiah and the redemption. Nowhere does it speak about a messiah being tortured to death and coming back thousands of years later.
Jeremiah 23:5-6; "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Jeremiah 33:14-16: "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. IN THOSE DAYS shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness."
When the branch of righteousness springs forth to David, when the messiah comes, THEN, IN THOSE DAYS, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell safely. That means that it is impossible to squeeze in two thousand or more years between the coming of the messiah and the redemption of Judah and Jerusalem. Out goes the 'second coming'. However, there wasn't any redemption in the days of Jesus. Forty years after his death, in 70 CE, Jerusalem was totally destroyed by the Romans, the second Temple was burned down, and the Jews exiled. No way that the above prophecy was fulfilled.
.
Isaiah 11; "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."
Also here we have a messiah who is going to kill the evil people: "And he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked." And after that we get the better world, when it says: "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them etc." This is what is supposed to happen, as soon as there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse (the father of King David) and a Branch shall grow out of his roots; that is as soon as the messiah comes. Nowhere here is mentioned that the messiah will be killed and that these prophecies will happen at least 2000 years later. On the contrary; when the messiah comes redemption comes. And also for this messianic prophecy you don't have to be a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist in order to see that it is not fulfilled. Nothing of this all was done by Jesus. Conclusion: He was not the messiah.
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
JC was not God, not the son of God, not divine, and not the messiah.
Only Y-H-W-H is God.
You rudely responded to a question that I specifically addressed to "Wile E. Coyote," and for this reason I have nothing else to say to you. And if you actually can read Hebrew, feel greatful that I am not writing what I am thinking right now.
My apology; that was my first post here, and I was apparently under the mistaken opinion that anyone was free to comment on other's posts. I therefore, didn't see it as being rude. Perhaps you can enlighten me on when it IS appropriate to comment?
In post #122, I believe it was, I asked you to translate a sentence I wrote to you in Hebrew. Whether or not you can/could is now a moot point because that person already posted it, probably from some type of online machine translator. Next time I will have to make it more difficult.
OR; it could be that they can trace their ancestry all the way back to a Jewish scholar who lived in the 1100's in France.
Last edited by Burning Bush; May 14th, 2012 at 10:27 AM.
My apology; that was my first post here, and I was apparently under the mistaken opinion that anyone was free to comment on other's posts. I therefore, didn't see it as being rude. Perhaps you can enlighten me on when it IS appropriate to comment?
You are free to comment on other posts. Unless it is a one on one debate anyone can answer any post.
Slogan/motto:
I have no political views of this world, and lean towards none that are listed. 2Co 5:17 (GW) Gal 6:15 (GW)
Reputation:
May 18th, 2012, 03:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elia
Bs'd
Here are a few messianic prophecies, NOT fulfilled by JC:
Micha 5:2-9; "But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for NOW shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off."
Here we have very clearly physical redemption from earthly enemies: "And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword", "Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off." These are very clear verses that can not be misinterpreted; when the messiah comes the Jewish enemies are going to be slaughtered. And the one coming forth from Bethlehem is to be a ruler in Israel, that is a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but not a wandering preacher and miracle healer.
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
Thank you, I will go through them:
Some of the prophecies about Jesus The Messiah, have been fulfilled but some are still yet to be fulfilled. That's how I see it.
I believe, this first one in Micah 5, will only get fulfilled when Jesus comes, to rule like you say, as King:
Rev 12:10 GW
(10) Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, power, kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah have come. The one accusing our brothers and sisters, the one accusing them day and night in the presence of our God, has been thrown out.
For what I understand, I see many of things that were spoken by the prophets will only get fulfilled during the 1000 year reign, when Jesus and His government will be in charge:
Rev 1:5-6 GW
(5) and from Jesus Christ, the witness, the trustworthy one, the first to come back to life, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. Glory and power forever and ever belong to the one who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood
(6) and has made us a kingdom, priests for God his Father. Amen.
Jesus Christ is the First one to come back to life, and has received immortal life:
2Co 5:17 Whoever is a believer in Christ is a new creation. The old way of living has disappeared. A new way of living has come into existence.
Slogan/motto:
I have no political views of this world, and lean towards none that are listed. 2Co 5:17 (GW) Gal 6:15 (GW)
Reputation:
May 18th, 2012, 03:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elia
Zacheriah 9:9-10; "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."
They say that he did ride on a donkey, like the whole Middle East in those days, but that is where it stops. He did not bring any peace, the battle bow, the horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not cut off from Jerusalem, and his dominion was not from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any dominion at all.
In order to get around this problem, the Christian church invented the "second coming". However, nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures is it written that the messiah would come once, get himself killed, and come again in a second coming. This is a pure rationalization of Jesus' failure to function in any way as a messiah. Nowhere in any of the above prophecies does it indicate that there will be a gap of at least 2000 years between the birth of the messiah and the redemption. Nowhere does it speak about a messiah being tortured to death and coming back thousands of years later.
I will do some more studies on this, but for now, go to Isaaiah 53, which can only be referring to Jesus the Messiah, God's Anointed Chosen One. In verse 7-8, it does tell us that Jesus Christ would be killed:
Isa 53:7-8 GW
(7) He was abused and punished, but he didn't open his mouth. He was led like a lamb to the slaughter. He was like a sheep that is silent when its wool is cut off. He didn't open his mouth.
(8) He was arrested, taken away, and judged. Who would have thought that he would be removed from the world? He was killed because of my people's rebellion.
According to the above, it does say that God's Holy Servant would be killed, and removed from the world.
Lets back up to to Isaiah 52:13-15:
Isa 52:13-15 GW
(13) My servant will be successful. He will be respected, praised, and highly honored.
(14) Many will be shocked by him. His appearance will be so disfigured that he won't look like any other man. His looks will be so disfigured that he will hardly look like a human.
(15) He will cleanse many nations with his blood. Kings will shut their mouths because of him. They will see things that they had never been told. They will understand things that they had never heard.
Isa 53:1-12 GW
(1) Who has believed our message? To whom has the LORD'S power been revealed?
(2) He grew up in his presence like a young tree, like a root out of dry ground. He had no form or majesty that would make us look at him. He had nothing in his appearance that would make us desire him.
(3) He was despised and rejected by people. He was a man of sorrows, familiar with suffering. He was despised like one from whom people turn their faces, and we didn't consider him to be worth anything.
(4) He certainly has taken upon himself our suffering and carried our sorrows, but we thought that God had wounded him, beat him, and punished him.
(5) He was wounded for our rebellious acts. He was crushed for our sins. He was punished so that we could have peace, and we received healing from his wounds.
(6) We have all strayed like sheep. Each one of us has turned to go his own way, and the LORD has laid all our sins on him.
(7) He was abused and punished, but he didn't open his mouth. He was led like a lamb to the slaughter. He was like a sheep that is silent when its wool is cut off. He didn't open his mouth.
(8) He was arrested, taken away, and judged. Who would have thought that he would be removed from the world? He was killed because of my people's rebellion.
(9) He was placed in a tomb with the wicked. He was put there with the rich when he died, although he had done nothing violent and had never spoken a lie.
(10) Yet, it was the LORD'S will to crush him with suffering. When the LORD has made his life a sacrifice for our wrongdoings, he will see his descendants for many days. The will of the LORD will succeed through him.
(11) He will see and be satisfied because of his suffering. My righteous servant will acquit many people because of what he has learned through suffering. He will carry their sins as a burden.
(12) So I will give him a share among the mighty, and he will divide the prize with the strong, because he poured out his life in death and he was counted with sinners. He carried the sins of many. He intercedes for those who are rebellious.
At the moment our Messiah is interceding for us all.
2Co 5:17 Whoever is a believer in Christ is a new creation. The old way of living has disappeared. A new way of living has come into existence.
Slogan/motto:
II Timothy 2:15, Psalms 6:5, I John 3:1-2, Romans 5:1 I John 4:18, I Timothy 2:4-5, II Corinthians 9:8,11, III John 2
Reputation:
May 18th, 2012, 04:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elia
Bs'd
Here are a few messianic prophecies, NOT fulfilled by JC:
Micha 5:2-9; "But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for NOW shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off."
Here we have very clearly physical redemption from earthly enemies: "And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword", "Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off." These are very clear verses that can not be misinterpreted; when the messiah comes the Jewish enemies are going to be slaughtered. And the one coming forth from Bethlehem is to be a ruler in Israel, that is a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but not a wandering preacher and miracle healer.
Zacheriah 9:9-10; "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."
They say that he did ride on a donkey, like the whole Middle East in those days, but that is where it stops. He did not bring any peace, the battle bow, the horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not cut off from Jerusalem, and his dominion was not from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any dominion at all.
In order to get around this problem, the Christian church invented the "second coming". However, nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures is it written that the messiah would come once, get himself killed, and come again in a second coming. This is a pure rationalization of Jesus' failure to function in any way as a messiah. Nowhere in any of the above prophecies does it indicate that there will be a gap of at least 2000 years between the birth of the messiah and the redemption. Nowhere does it speak about a messiah being tortured to death and coming back thousands of years later.
Jeremiah 23:5-6; "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Jeremiah 33:14-16: "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. IN THOSE DAYS shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness."
When the branch of righteousness springs forth to David, when the messiah comes, THEN, IN THOSE DAYS, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell safely. That means that it is impossible to squeeze in two thousand or more years between the coming of the messiah and the redemption of Judah and Jerusalem. Out goes the 'second coming'. However, there wasn't any redemption in the days of Jesus. Forty years after his death, in 70 CE, Jerusalem was totally destroyed by the Romans, the second Temple was burned down, and the Jews exiled. No way that the above prophecy was fulfilled.
.
Isaiah 11; "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."
Also here we have a messiah who is going to kill the evil people: "And he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked." And after that we get the better world, when it says: "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them etc." This is what is supposed to happen, as soon as there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse (the father of King David) and a Branch shall grow out of his roots; that is as soon as the messiah comes. Nowhere here is mentioned that the messiah will be killed and that these prophecies will happen at least 2000 years later. On the contrary; when the messiah comes redemption comes. And also for this messianic prophecy you don't have to be a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist in order to see that it is not fulfilled. Nothing of this all was done by Jesus. Conclusion: He was not the messiah.
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
Whatever genuine prophecies that Jesus Christ has not fulfilled yet is not a reason to doubt.
He as filled a number of them already.
He is alive and well and seated at the right hand of the Father.
He is well aware of his future responsibilities and shall fulfill them when the time is right.
You have not fulfilled all yours life's meaning yet, does that make you any less you?
oatmeal
"And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42
"For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" Psalm 6:5
Nowhere is it written in the Hebrew Bible, that the messiah is going to be God Himself.
"Messiah" simply means "anointed one", and refers to an anointed king. (or high priest)
So why isn't the Christian messiah a normal anointed Jewish king?
Eliyahu
Because the creeds are viewed as canon with all the emphasis of the gospel placed upon salvation from hell rather than as Jesus preached as being the "Kingdom of God". . Hence, to view things differently, to think for yourself, is to be classified as un-Christian, even if you waver from them in the slightest like to ask the question, "When was Jesus actually God?", one is labeled a heretic if, in his opinion: He won't be before all His "enemies are made His footstool" and that by the Father and the Holy Ghost. In that day "ALL things will be summed up both in Heaven and on Earth in that One Man, Christ Jesus", who will then return to Earth in clouds of Glory! __ as God in Divine Human Flesh and Bone, bringing to fruition all the titles given Him in Isaiah and elsewhere in the OT.
In order to get around this problem, the Christian church invented the "second coming". However, nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures is it written that the messiah would come once, get himself killed, and come again in a second coming. This is a pure rationalization of Jesus' failure to function in any way as a messiah. Nowhere in any of the above prophecies does it indicate that there will be a gap of at least 2000 years between the birth of the messiah and the redemption. Nowhere does it speak about a messiah being tortured to death and coming back thousands of years later.
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
Well, you're partially right, but not for the reason you think. The "second coming" is said to be without sin. The key there, is the, "without sin" part, which is what most Christians miss because for some reason they seem to think He was kidding in Heb. 10 when He said the Tabernacle pattern was the pattern of heavenly (and therefore spiritual) things. Therefore, if we are to understand what is being said, we must understand the Tabernacle pattern, and if it doesn't fit the pattern, throw it out.
The High Priest that He is (read Hebrews), goes first into the presence of the Father with the blood of a bullock (ie. so he is now without sin), THEN (a second time) does so for the (rest of) the people, on the Day of Atonement, yes?
This is the, "He goes to prepare a place for us that where He is we might be also". He IS, seated at the right hand of the Father, which is where we too are seated in heavenly places. Where the Head is, the body by necessity, must also be.
Thus Paul said, our CONVERSATION is FROM heaven. You can't speak from a place you've never been.
Slogan/motto:
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
Reputation:
May 20th, 2012, 02:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gill White
I will do some more studies on this, but for now, go to Isaaiah 53, which can only be referring to Jesus the Messiah, God's Anointed Chosen One. In verse 7-8, it does tell us that Jesus Christ would be killed:
Isa 53:7-8 GW
(7) He was abused and punished, but he didn't open his mouth. He was led like a lamb to the slaughter. He was like a sheep that is silent when its wool is cut off. He didn't open his mouth.
(8) He was arrested, taken away, and judged. Who would have thought that he would be removed from the world? He was killed because of my people's rebellion.
According to the above, it does say that God's Holy Servant would be killed, and removed from the world.
Lets back up to to Isaiah 52:13-15:
Isa 52:13-15 GW
(13) My servant will be successful. He will be respected, praised, and highly honored.
(14) Many will be shocked by him. His appearance will be so disfigured that he won't look like any other man. His looks will be so disfigured that he will hardly look like a human.
(15) He will cleanse many nations with his blood. Kings will shut their mouths because of him. They will see things that they had never been told. They will understand things that they had never heard.
Isa 53:1-12 GW
(1) Who has believed our message? To whom has the LORD'S power been revealed?
(2) He grew up in his presence like a young tree, like a root out of dry ground. He had no form or majesty that would make us look at him. He had nothing in his appearance that would make us desire him.
(3) He was despised and rejected by people. He was a man of sorrows, familiar with suffering. He was despised like one from whom people turn their faces, and we didn't consider him to be worth anything.
(4) He certainly has taken upon himself our suffering and carried our sorrows, but we thought that God had wounded him, beat him, and punished him.
(5) He was wounded for our rebellious acts. He was crushed for our sins. He was punished so that we could have peace, and we received healing from his wounds.
(6) We have all strayed like sheep. Each one of us has turned to go his own way, and the LORD has laid all our sins on him.
(7) He was abused and punished, but he didn't open his mouth. He was led like a lamb to the slaughter. He was like a sheep that is silent when its wool is cut off. He didn't open his mouth.
(8) He was arrested, taken away, and judged. Who would have thought that he would be removed from the world? He was killed because of my people's rebellion.
(9) He was placed in a tomb with the wicked. He was put there with the rich when he died, although he had done nothing violent and had never spoken a lie.
(10) Yet, it was the LORD'S will to crush him with suffering. When the LORD has made his life a sacrifice for our wrongdoings, he will see his descendants for many days. The will of the LORD will succeed through him.
(11) He will see and be satisfied because of his suffering. My righteous servant will acquit many people because of what he has learned through suffering. He will carry their sins as a burden.
(12) So I will give him a share among the mighty, and he will divide the prize with the strong, because he poured out his life in death and he was counted with sinners. He carried the sins of many. He intercedes for those who are rebellious.
At the moment our Messiah is interceding for us all.
Bs'd
Isaiah 53 speaks about the servant of God.
You believe that is JC. You believe JC is God.
So God, apart from being his own son, and at the same time being his own father, is also his own servant???
How absurd can you make your theology?
And anyway, what arguments can you come up with to say that the servant is the messiah?
Because I don't see any messiah in Isaiah 53.
Eliyahu
JC was not God, not the son of God, not divine, and not the messiah.
Only Y-H-W-H is God.
My apology; that was my first post here, and I was apparently under the mistaken opinion that anyone was free to comment on other's posts. I therefore, didn't see it as being rude. Perhaps you can enlighten me on when it IS appropriate to comment?
May 14th, 2012, 09:59 AM
Well, you're partially right, but not for the reason you think. The "second coming" is said to be without sin. The key there, is the, "without sin" part, which is what most Christians miss because for some reason they seem to think He was kidding in Heb. 10 when He said the Tabernacle pattern was the pattern of heavenly (and therefore spiritual) things. Therefore, if we are to understand what is being said, we must understand the Tabernacle pattern, and if it doesn't fit the pattern, throw it out.
Linear Mode
