Exclusively Christian TheologyThis forum is exclusively for those who consider themselves Christian and consider the Bible to be the inspired word of God.
I use 'gotquestions' frequently, but they are wrong on this article. Try more scholarly discussions to understand the complexities of the issue and strength/weakness of alternate views.
Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)
They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")
Jer 23:23 Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off?
24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD.
Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.
-- FILL means to fill with Stars and Planets
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The Angels report to God and stand before him and see his Face.
Ge 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth,
and the top of it reached to heaven:
and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.
Lu 1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel,
that stand in the presence of God;
Mt 18:10 That in heaven their angels do always behold
the face of my Father which is in heaven.
Jeremiah 23:23-24 "Am I a God at hand, says the LORD, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? says the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? says the LORD."
-- FILL means to fill with Stars and Planets
No, my dear friend. God is clearly Omnipresent, too; For your interpretation of Jeremiah 23:23-24 is not based on what the text actually says. In fact, when we read Scripture, the key to understanding any verse is to look at the surrounding verses to get a proper perspective. For if we ignore this, then we fall in the danger of taking God's Word out of context.
In this case: We know God Himself fills the Heaven and the Earth because we know the verses right before it declare God to say of Himself that He...
(1) Is a God at hand
(2) Can see in secret places
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The Angels report to God and stand before him and see his Face.
- Genesis 28:12 "And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it."
- Luke 1:19 "And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stands in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto you, and to show you these glad tidings."
- Matthew 18:10 "Take heed that you despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven."
God is God and He can appear in any way shape or form as He desires. Just because God manifests a part of Himself on a throne does not mean that another part of Himself cannot fill the galaxy.
For as you may know, God is One God who exists in three persons (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit). This is referred to as the Godhead within the Scriptures (Acts 17:29, Romans 1:20, and Colossians 2:9).
Anyways, we know God is Omnipresent, for the Scriptures say...
"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain you; how much less this house that I have built?" ~ (1 Kings 8:27)
"Where shall I go from your Spirit? or where shall I flee from your presence? If I ascend up into heaven, you are there: if I make my bed in Sheol, behold, you are there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall your hand lead me, and your right hand shall hold me." ~ (Psalm 139:7-10)
"Nevertheless I am continually with you: you have held me by my right hand." ~ (Psalm 73:23)
"And, behold, I am with you, and will keep you in all places wherever you go, and will bring you again into this land; for I will not leave you, until I have done that which I have spoken to you of." ~ (Genesis 28:15)
God is also personal and we confess our sins to Him, and then ask for the Spirit to live within us (i.e. Spirit = God).
God also created all things visible and invisible (Including "Time). So the Lord is not bound by anything within His Creation. He is beyond "Time". In fact, if your interested, please take the time to read my previous posts on "Time" here in this thread...
I use 'gotquestions' frequently, but they are wrong on this article. Try more scholarly discussions to understand the complexities of the issue and strength/weakness of alternate views.
GR:
Although I am not denying scholars have made some great contributions in our understanding of God's Word; However, we also have to be crazy wildly careful that we are not putting our trust in man's reasoning or interpretation of the Scriptures over what the Scriptures actually teach, though. For we cannot lean upon our own understanding or man's teachings alone but we must continually ask God in prayer if we are on the right path of truth in our study of His Word (Proverbs 3:5) (James 1:5). For I personally have been doing this myself and can tell you it works.
Anyways, God being "Timeless" is not talking about what some scholars would like to think it is (Which is a state of dimension where no change could exist). When I speak of God being outside of time or being "Timeless", I am saying that the Lord is not bound by the physical universe's property of "Linear Sequential Time". I am talking about how we (unlike God) are stuck in the "Present" (That continues to ever move forward at a slow rate) and we cannot jump back into the past or jump far into future. So when I refer to "Timelessness" I am not referring to a universe where no change could happen, but I am referring to "Linear Timelessness" where the normal rules of "Linear Time" do not apply. In other words, God is not like man were He is constrained by the properties of the universe like man is. Man is susceptible to gravity, death, disease, evil, sin, and linear time. God is not like man where He is susceptible to such things in the same way.
However, just in case you were interested, it is important to point out that the good character of God does not change, though. For He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow (i.e. the Doctrine of Immutability). So in this sense, God does not change within "Time".
I mean, think about it. It is totally possible that God can exist in all points in time if He so desired to. For the Lord could simply re-create or re-manifest the past or future at any second if He so desired.
For how do we know God did not turn back "Time" and then freeze it when Joshua asked for more daylight (Joshua 10:12-14)? See with God, nothing is impossible. God can do anything (within the unchanging laws of goodness, logic, and truth that He establishes). For He is not bound by some scholars line of reasoning.
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Last edited by Jason0047; May 24th, 2012 at 12:03 AM.
All things will ultimately be put under the authority or rulership of God in the Judgment (Revelation 20:15) (2 Corinthians 5:10). This includes idle thoughts, evil, and fictional stories or characters (created in the minds of men (Such as Daffy Duck). For God has already declared the End before the Beginning (Isaiah 46:10).
Therefore, if God has already declared the End, that means it has already happened for Him once in a way or method that most people do not understand. So for God. The Judgment has already happened for Him even though it has not been actualized within the current physical and spiritual planes of our reality yet.
In other words, when men do evil or when they create fictional things within their minds that are not influenced by God, it will have it's place in the Judgment. For if they do good and abide in the Spirit, those things will be put under the Kingdom of God. However, if they do evil and then choose not to follow God, or turn away from Him, they will put into another place (Unless they were to repent (of course)).
God is Lord or Ruler of that which is good. When Hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire, it is an establishment of good by the justice of putting away evil.
Now, I am not saying there is anything wrong with a fictional character like Daffy Duck. However, these things will have their end; Especially if they do not glorify God at any point within our reality.
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Last edited by Jason0047; May 24th, 2012 at 09:06 PM.
If God were omniscient, he would not be able to choose not to know something. In which case he is not omnipotent. If God were omnipotent, he would not be able to commit suicide. So he can't be omnipotent.
DR:
No, my friend. This type of thinking would be no different the argument that says:
Such false arguments do not stand up to the sound truth of God's Word. For we know that there are many verses that tell us that God is Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent.
However, of course it is ultimately up to you if you want to lean on your own understanding or seek out the truth of God's Word in humble prayer on such matters, though.
I say this not to wound you, but to encourage you to ask God for help in understanding His Word. For I know that if you ask God to show you the truth on such matters, He will be more than happy to help you (if you are diligent and truly willing to serve the Lord).
Slogan/motto:
I know a lot of fancy dancers
People who can glide you on a floor
They move so smooth but have no answers
When you ask "Why'd you come here for?"
~ Cat Stevens
Reputation:
May 23rd, 2012, 10:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Reign
If God were omniscient, he would not be able to choose not to know something. In which case he is not omnipotent.
If God were omnipotent, he would not be able to commit suicide. So he can't be omnipotent.
If GOD knew everything about everything HE created by divine decree HE would be omniscient because if HE didn't know something it was because it didn't exist. He knew about all possibilities of course but they are not real as they don't exist yet, so they would not be under the scope of HIS divine omniscience.
This relates to our free will: GOD DID NOT NOT CREATE BY DIVINE DECREE THE OUTCOME OF OUR TRUE FREE WILL CHOICES, therefore when we made our choices, they were in fact news to HIM and the decisions to rebel to HIS plan for creation were not created by HIM though forseen by HIM as a posssiblity.
This is the true meaning of a true free will choice.
As for HIS omnipotence stopping any chance of suicide by GOD, I've only heard of this one other time, very cool.
It is presupposed by pre-conception existence that Satan et al know full well that once HIS sinful elect are sanctified unto holiness and are willing to accept their damnation, the judgment day will be at hand. Therefore one of his strategies is to defile the sinful church so deep in the, the... the mire of evil that GOD becomes so disgusted with us that HE will in fact call the whole thing off and suicide.
I have no idea or not if HE could do this but I know HE doesn't need to do it because He has everything under control and the time maybe long while the wheat lives among the tares but when all the wheat is mature, sanctified and holy, the tares will be gathered to be burned.
When Christians say God is Omnipotent (all powerful), Omniscient (all knowing), Omnipresent (Can be present everywhere), and Omnitemporal (Can be outside of linear sequential physical time), this does not mean that God can violate His good nature (morals), His sovereignty (rule), and or His infinite being (essence) in the process. For God is our Creator and Redeemer who is the very embodiment of everything that is good, loving, Holy, and righteous.
In fact, this is good news for us, for when we know God's good character does not change (i.e. His Immutability), it gives us the assurance that we can trust God. For the Scriptures clearly teach us that God will never change in regards to His good character. For the Lord is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow; And we can rely on the fact that He will keep His promises to us. We can trust in God and know that He is indeed good.
Therefore, when Christians use such words (Such as Omniscient, etc.), they are within the context of God's good character and being; And not something that is outside of it.
All things will ultimately be put under the authority or rulership of God in the Judgment (Revelation 20:15) (2 Corinthians 5:10). This includes idle thoughts, evil, and fictional stories or characters (created in the minds of men (Such as Daffy Duck). For God has already declared the End before the Beginning (Isaiah 48:3).
You're an idiot.
God is not the Lord of things that don't exist, you twit! He is not the Lord of Daffy Duck because there is no Daffy Duck.
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Therefore, if God has already declared the End, that means it has already happened for Him once in a way or method that most people do not understand. So for God. The Judgment has already happened for Him even though it has not been actualized within the current physical and spiritual planes of our reality yet.
I declare I am going to go to work tomorrow, therefore I have already gone to work tomorrow. Do you see how stupid you sound?
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In other words, when men do evil or when they create fictional things within their minds that are not influenced by God, it will have it's place in the Judgment. For if they do good and abide in the Spirit, those things will be put under the Kingdom of God. However, if they do evil and then choose not to follow God, or turn away from Him, they will put into another place (Unless they were to repent (of course)).
Moron.
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God is Lord or Ruler of that which is good. When Hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire, it is an establishment of good by the justice of putting away evil.
Irrelevant.
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Now, I am not saying there is anything wrong with a fictional character like Daffy Duck. However, these things will have their end; Especially if they do not glorify God at any point within our reality.
So God isn't going to turn things meant for evil around and use them for good? You don't think God might produce Daffy Duck cartoons in Heaven that glorify Him? What if He does? What are you going to do then?
But, you know what, that has absolutely nothing to do with the question I asked.
God is not the Lord of things that don't exist, you twit! He is not the Lord of Daffy Duck because there is no Daffy Duck.
LH:
Yes, it is true. Daffy Duck does not exist. I realize this, so please do not insult me. I said he was a fictional character (Please read my post). Fictional means not real. I get that. But despite the character not being real, images and stories have been created about this character that has effected people's lives.
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I declare I am going to go to work tomorrow, therefore I have already gone to work tomorrow.
Although, what you do is important and does matter (especially to God), your declaration of going to work tomorrow doesn't really effect people's lives on a massive level like certain works of fiction has. However, God is concerned with everyone's actions (including yours) and they are very real to Him. For everyone's actions are all recorded in a book (i.e. scroll) and everyone will have to give an account for them (Revelation 20:12) (2 Corinthians 5:10).
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But, you know what, that has absolutely nothing to do with the question I asked.
For the point I am trying to make has everything to do with the question you asked. I may not have given you a direct answer, but I have pointed you in right direction to lead you to the truth of the answer you seek. For you asked: Is God the Lord of Daffy Duck? Now, granted, Daffy Duck is a fictional imaginary device, it has effected people's lives. Freddy Krueger is not real either but don't you think there is some kind of dark spirit behind the creation of that fictional character? Don't you think that it might effect people spiritually if they watch movies involving this "fictional character" and enjoy it (i.e. for the violence, murder, nudity, and sex)?
This is the heart of what I was getting at. Is what you are doing glorifying God or not? This can take form in the types of fiction you indulge in (despite it not being physically real).
For Jesus said, that even if you look at a woman in lust, you have committed adultery already within your heart (Matthew 5:28). Everything we do or partake in is spiritual (which can either be good or bad).
"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds; ) Casting down arguments, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;" ~ (2 Corinthians 10:3-5)
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Last edited by Jason0047; May 24th, 2012 at 01:18 AM.
You're an idiot...you twit! ...Do you see how stupid you sound? Moron. Irrelevant.
You're a clanging gong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason0047
please do not insult me.
Luke 6:22-23
Blessed are you when men hate you, and when they exclude you, and revile you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of Man’s sake. Rejoice in that day and leap for joy! For indeed your reward is great in heaven, for in like manner their fathers did to the prophets.
2 Timothy 3:12-13
Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.
The "evil men and impostors" are those who say they are Christians and are not, but lie.
No, my friend. This type of thinking would be no different the argument that says:
"Can God Make a Rock So Big He Can't Lift It?"
Yes, there are lots of ways of proving that God is not absolutely omnipotent. I agree the arguments are very similar. Doesn't make them wrong though.
The argument itself is flawless. What you need is a new concept of God that takes into account the cross. The cross did not prove God's omnipotence but his weakness. It proved that it wasn't by might, by lording it over everyone or by calling 12 legions of angels to protect you when you are in trouble (as Jesus said he could have done to avoid the cross) that his purposes would be achieved.
In the same way, the cross invites us and gives a basis for loving others and not seeking our own interests. If God were omnipotent in the way you suggest, then that would be a good reason why we also should get everything we want by the use of force. As Paul says, 'be imitators of God'. The god of omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence simply isn't the God of the Bible but a god invented by philosophers.
Total Misanthropy. Uncertain salvation. Luck of the draw. Irresistible damnation. Persecution of the saints.
Jer 23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him?
saith the LORD. Do not I fill <04392> heaven and earth? saith the LORD.
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De 6:11 And houses full <04392> of all good things, which thou filledst not, digged,
vineyards and olive trees, which thou plantedst not;
when thou shalt have eaten and be full;<04392>
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Here is another scripture for you to misunderstand.
1 Kings 8:27 "But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens,
even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!
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