[keypurr]

Originally Posted by surrender

Because Jesus was a genuine man. The word of God AS man: truly man. The infinite God didn't squeeze into a man suit; God's word (God's character, personality, thought, mind, love, truth, way) became flesh, took the form of flesh. Jesus lived his life as any typical man, but because the character, personality, thought, mind, love, truth, and the way of God were so mapped into his being, Jesus was able to be made perfect from obedience through his suffering and live without sinning. This is God's self-revelation to mankind.

So your think its refers to his human side. Why would that not be perfect to start with? OK, he was just human til age 30. Then God took over his life. That is the age when Rabbies became Priests.

Thanks friend, you gave me something to ponder over.

[surrender]

Originally Posted by keypurr

So your think its refers to his human side.

Jesus didn’t have two sides any more (or any less) than we have two sides. He was a human being until his death just as you will be a human being until your death. Jesus was God (from his birth) in that he was so utterly comprised of the character, personality, thought, love, truth, and way of God. But he was completely human in every way that you are.

Why would that not be perfect to start with?

Because he was a human being with a human brain and a human will. He needed to grow and learn as humans do.

OK, he was just human til age 30.

No, he was human until his death and then he was raised a glorified, immortal man.

Then God took over his life. That is the age when Rabbies became Priests.

God “took over” his life? What does that mean?

Thanks friend, you gave me something to ponder over.

You’re welcome.

[glorydaz]

Originally Posted by keypurr

Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
Heb 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Heb 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

Notice "HE WAS MADE PERFECT" thats a creation folks.

I'm glad you brought up Melchisedec.

Heb. 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Heb. 7:15-16
And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

[lifeisgood]

Originally Posted by keypurr

Tell me why Jesus had to grow in wisdom if he was born god?

Wisdom is the application of knowledge. He had all the knowledge of God with Him at the manger as a baby. But the application of it did not come until the time and the circumstance commensurate with His physical development.

1. At the age of 12, Jesus was aware of His special and unique relationship with the Father (Lk. 2:49).
2. Jesus knew "where He came from, and where he was going" (John 8:14).
3. Jesus "knew all men" and "knew what was in man" (John 2:24-25).
4. Jesus "knew from the beginning, who would believe on Him and who would betray Him" (John 6:64).
5. Jesus knew that the Father had "given all things into His hands, and that He had come from God, and was going back to God"(John 13:3).
6. Jesus "knew all things that would come upon Him" from His arrest and forward (John 18:4).
7. Jesus "knew all things" (John 16:30; 21:17).

Luke 2:52 tells us that Jesus "grew in wisdom," but in Luke 2:40, just a few verses earlier we are told that Jesus was “full” of wisdom. How can one be “full” of something while “increasing” in it? There is only one way.

Luke 2:52 teaches that Jesus “wisdom” was coordinated with His physical development or stature. As he went from one stage of physical development to the next, He had all the wisdom necessary to do His work. As He grew, He grew in applying His knowledge. He did not “grow” or “increase” in the sense of acquiring more of something He lacked previously.

Jesus accepted His physical limitations, though His spirit remained immutably divine. He possessed sure and certain knowledge that was divine. He only used His divine knowledge in keeping with His mission. Luke 2:42-49 records the first such time. Even at the age of 12 He referred to His Father as “My Father.” Even at the manger as a baby he possessed divine knowledge. He was fully God in the manger (Matthew 1:23). The only reason He was qualified to receive the angels’ worship was because He was God!

[glorydaz]

Originally Posted by lifeisgood

Wisdom is the application of knowledge. He had all the knowledge of God with Him at the manger as a baby. But the application of it did not come until the time and the circumstance commensurate with His physical development.

1. At the age of 12, Jesus was aware of His special and unique relationship with the Father (Lk. 2:49).
2. Jesus knew "where He came from, and where he was going" (John 8:14).
3. Jesus "knew all men" and "knew what was in man" (John 2:24-25).
4. Jesus "knew from the beginning, who would believe on Him and who would betray Him" (John 6:64).
5. Jesus knew that the Father had "given all things into His hands, and that He had come from God, and was going back to God"(John 13:3).
6. Jesus "knew all things that would come upon Him" from His arrest and forward (John 18:4).
7. Jesus "knew all things" (John 16:30; 21:17).

Luke 2:52 tells us that Jesus "grew in wisdom," but in Luke 2:40, just a few verses earlier we are told that Jesus was “full” of wisdom. How can one be “full” of something while “increasing” in it? There is only one way.

Luke 2:52 teaches that Jesus “wisdom” was coordinated with His physical development or stature. As he went from one stage of physical development to the next, He had all the wisdom necessary to do His work. As He grew, He grew in applying His knowledge. He did not “grow” or “increase” in the sense of acquiring more of something He lacked previously.

Jesus accepted His physical limitations, though His spirit remained immutably divine. He possessed sure and certain knowledge that was divine. He only used His divine knowledge in keeping with His mission. Luke 2:42-49 records the first such time. Even at the age of 12 He referred to His Father as “My Father.” Even at the manger as a baby he possessed divine knowledge. He was fully God in the manger (Matthew 1:23). The only reason He was qualified to receive the angels’ worship was because He was God!

WOW....That was a GREAT post.

[glorydaz]

Originally Posted by surrender

Because Jesus was a genuine man. The word of God AS man: truly man. The infinite God didn't squeeze into a man suit; God's word (God's character, personality, thought, mind, love, truth, way) became flesh, took the form of flesh. Jesus lived his life as any typical man, but because the character, personality, thought, mind, love, truth, and the way of God were so mapped into his being, Jesus was able to be made perfect from obedience through his suffering and live without sinning. This is God's self-revelation to mankind.

Rather than squeezing into a "man suit," God resided in a Temple "made without hands." Humanity can only contain so much deity without some of it overflowing...which we saw in the life of Christ. Being able to know the thoughts of men is only one example of that.

God took on the form of a servant. Jesus was the perfect man, a servant of God. He yielded completely to God who dwelt in His body of flesh.

Nothing can totally hide God's glory. Not a cloud...

Exodus 16:10
And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.

Exodus 40:34
Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

Not fire...

Deuteronomy 5:24
And ye said, Behold, the LORD our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth.

Not even human flesh...

Psalm 102:16
When the LORD shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory.

John the Baptist confirmed that Glory of God revealed to mankind was our Lord Jesus Christ.

Is. 40:3-5
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

[lifeisgood]

Originally Posted by keypurr

He was not before God. He was God's first creation. All things were made THROUGH him. That is what scripture implies.

"And he (Jesus) is before all things, and by him (Jesus) all things consist" (Colossians 1:17)

"For in him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9)

You have two choices:

Believe what the Word of God says.

or

Reject what the Word of God says.

you CANNOT have both.

[keypurr]

Originally Posted by lifeisgood

"And he (Jesus) is before all things, and by him (Jesus) all things consist" (Colossians 1:17)

"For in him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9)

You have two choices:

Believe what the Word of God says.

or

Reject what the Word of God says.

you CANNOT have both.

My post agree with these verses.
1 He is the first creation, all was made through him.
2 He has the deity of the image spirit of God.

There is no conflict friend.

[keypurr]

Originally Posted by lifeisgood

Wisdom is the application of knowledge. He had all the knowledge of God with Him at the manger as a baby. But the application of it did not come until the time and the circumstance commensurate with His physical development.

1. At the age of 12, Jesus was aware of His special and unique relationship with the Father (Lk. 2:49).
2. Jesus knew "where He came from, and where he was going" (John 8:14).
3. Jesus "knew all men" and "knew what was in man" (John 2:24-25).
4. Jesus "knew from the beginning, who would believe on Him and who would betray Him" (John 6:64).
5. Jesus knew that the Father had "given all things into His hands, and that He had come from God, and was going back to God"(John 13:3).
6. Jesus "knew all things that would come upon Him" from His arrest and forward (John 18:4).
7. Jesus "knew all things" (John 16:30; 21:17).

Luke 2:52 tells us that Jesus "grew in wisdom," but in Luke 2:40, just a few verses earlier we are told that Jesus was “full” of wisdom. How can one be “full” of something while “increasing” in it? There is only one way.

Luke 2:52 teaches that Jesus “wisdom” was coordinated with His physical development or stature. As he went from one stage of physical development to the next, He had all the wisdom necessary to do His work. As He grew, He grew in applying His knowledge. He did not “grow” or “increase” in the sense of acquiring more of something He lacked previously.

Jesus accepted His physical limitations, though His spirit remained immutably divine. He possessed sure and certain knowledge that was divine. He only used His divine knowledge in keeping with His mission. Luke 2:42-49 records the first such time. Even at the age of 12 He referred to His Father as “My Father.” Even at the manger as a baby he possessed divine knowledge. He was fully God in the manger (Matthew 1:23). The only reason He was qualified to receive the angels’ worship was because He was God!

When did he know? Until he was baptised he did not say much.
If he had knowledge at birth he would not grow in wisdom. God gave him his powers after he was baptised. That is when he got his deity.

[Bright Raven]

Originally Posted by keypurr

My post agree with these verses.
1 He is the first creation, all was made through him.
2 He has the deity of the image spirit of God.

There is no conflict friend.

There is much conflict friend.

First, He is not created as witnessed by the apostle John in his Gospel account and 1 Epistle. Paul also makes the same statement in Colossians 1, His being firstborn being a statement of position not birth/creation.

Secondly, He is "who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of His power...." (Hebrews 1:3-4) He is not just an image but the express image of His person.

This is not in line with what you say and believe.

[Bright Raven]

That is when he got his deity.

It is when He received the Spirit.

[glorydaz]

Originally Posted by keypurr

My post agree with these verses.
1 He is the first creation, all was made through him.
2 He has the deity of the image spirit of God.

There is no conflict friend.

That's just your stiff-necked "I" speaking, Keypurr. I remember quite well how you admitted "firstborn"...not just first, could be speaking of the premier position. Firstborn OVER ALL creation....means LORD of all creation. It's nothing more than your stubborn pride that keeps you from reading the verses that follow... "spirit image" isn't in ANY of your translations. NONE.

Colossians 1:14-16
in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

All things created BY HIM
All things created THROUGH HIM
All things created FOR HIM

Bend that proud stiff-necked "I" and admit you're WRONG. Read the entire text...don't pick through the Word of God tossing out what doesn't fit your own personal flawed reasoning. Pride is the downfall of many a man. I'd hate to see it be yours.

[glorydaz]

Originally Posted by keypurr

When did he know? Until he was baptised he did not say much.
If he had knowledge at birth he would not grow in wisdom. God gave him his powers after he was baptised. That is when he got his deity.

Not much is recorded...not that He didn't say much. In His humanity, He grew in wisdom. In His Deity, which He had when the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, He was "God with us."

[surrender]

Originally Posted by keypurr

When did he know? Until he was baptised he did not say much.
If he had knowledge at birth he would not grow in wisdom. God gave him his powers after he was baptised. That is when he got his deity.

When Jesus was only eight days old, the Holy Spirit came upon Simeon and when he took Jesus in his arms he said, "Now LORD,...my eyes have seen Your salvation." He was called "immanuel" from his birth (Mat. 1:23). How could God's salvation and "God with us" be attributed to Jesus as a baby if he didn't share the identity of God, even as a baby?

[lifeisgood]

Originally Posted by keypurr

My post agree with these verses.
1 He is the first creation, all was made through him.
2 He has the deity of the image spirit of God.
There is no conflict friend.

You are incorrect in your declaration of ‘firstborn’ being the topic of Jesus’ origin. If you do not take the verse out of its context, it clearly defines ‘firstborn’ as first in position.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. (Colossians 1:15)

The Greek “prototokos” translated “firstborn” is not a noun, but an adjective. If this word was really referring to being born, the verse is theologically incorrect. Adam, even though not really born, was the ‘firstborn’ of creation. Cain was actually the firstborn of creation. Jesus was not born until thousands of years later.

The word “firstborn” in this verse does not infer a physical birth, but refer to Jesus’ position to inherit the creation. I know you already know, however, in Jewish law, the ‘firstborn’ inherited the lion’s share of his father’s state. Jesus will inherit the creation. It has nothing to do with being created.

Colossians 1:18 directly contradict Jesus being created because it describe Him as existing in ‘the beginning.’ This verse also describes Jesus as being the ‘firstborn from the dead’ and defines Jesus as having ‘first place in everything,’ demonstrating that the word ‘firstborn’ refers to position and not to creation.

Jesus Himself and the Scriptures affirm that He was heir to the creation:

Colossians 1:16 — For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Colossians 2:9-10 — For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
Hebrews 1:2 — Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.
Hebrews 2:8 — YOU HAVE PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.

In the parable of the vineyard (Matthew 21:33-34) Jesus Himself indicates that He was the heir of all creation. Jesus represents the heir of the vineyard, who is killed by the workers. The cornerstone which was rejected by the builders. Theologically, ‘firstborn’ makes no sense except as the heir of creation.

John 1:3 — All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.