ReligionDiscuss General Theology, Religions and Denominations, God's Attributes, Predestination and Free Will, Dispensationalism, Eschatology, Philosophy, Origins, Archaeology, Science, World History and other such topics.
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Try to be civil in the face of incivility. This is a test.
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May 26th, 2012, 06:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PureX
Actually, the study showed that people who watched PBS were the better informed. And surprisingly, people who watched the comedy news shows, like the Daily Show, were fairly well informed. So far, two studies have been done, several years apart, and they both showed the same results.
As for Rachel Maddow, she is clearly biased in that she never reports on any of the idiotic and criminal things that democrats do. But her reporting on the republican's shenanigans is at least fairly accurate, as opposed to FOX, which apparently doesn't much concern itself with accuracy so much as it's interested in riling people up against all things "liberal", by whatever means. Accuracy is a bit of an afterthought at FOX, if it's thought about at all.
And so it goes. Statistics may say anything the gatherer chooses to say.
We are so polarized that we are close to paralyzed!
Slogan/motto:
Try to be civil in the face of incivility. This is a test.
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May 26th, 2012, 06:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaquero45
That little guy annoys the heck out of me. He dresses almost like a girl. It's weird. All he does is whine whine whine. Why does he have his own show anyway?
Yes! I have a horrid facination for him. The way his rubbery lips flap around in his face give me vertigo!
it could happened
and
not because a lot of women are worried about who is going to pay for their contraceptives
obama thinks he has a winning issue here
he loses
if
it is about abortion
he loses
if
it is about same sex marriage
he loses
if
it is about religious freedom
but
he wins
if
it is about contraception
and
that is the way it is being framed
and
he also wins
if
it is about religion which must be out there to remind everyone that Romney has a different religion
Anyone want to address this intelligently, or not?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PureX
Abortion and contraception are both legal, medical practices. Every United States citizen has the right to avail themselves of either one of these practices or procedures with their doctor's consent and/or recommendation. They are an excepted aspect of health care in the United States. The Catholic church has every right to disagree and preach against either of these practices, but they have no right whatever to deliberately discriminate against their employees, their students, their patients, or anyone else on religious grounds. It is NOT up to the employer what health care services their employees and their doctors choose to practice, so it is NOT a matter of conscience for them to pay for their employees' health care coverage the same as any other employer does, as they are falsely trying to claim.
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For as much as it depends on you, live at peace with others.
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May 27th, 2012, 10:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PureX
Anyone want to address this intelligently, or not?
It is up to the employer. In the beginning employer provided health insurance was a way for an employer to attract employees and incentive to retain employees.
It should still be the same way. If you don't like the insurance coverage provided by your employer, you are free to leave and go work for somewhere else.
One would hope that the Catholic would provide better than average care for their employees due to the savings they would get from not having to provide birth control or abortion.
And people wonder why companies in this country are going down the tubes.. year after year after year, the government either a.) passes unfunded mandates that employers must absorb or pass onto its customers, b.) They pass required employee benefits that are again passed onto its customers. Thereby making their products uncompetitive in the marketplace.
No wonder companies are fleeing this country and using labor abroad... its gotten to the point where nothing is out of bounds for the federal government to meddle in.
If you want to provide universal equal coverage than get the federal government to pass a single payer plan. Otherwise, quit getting indignant when the federal government tries to back door universal coverage on the backs of industry.
As far as me, I have no problem with birth control... but abortion is not a method of birth control, its a last resort when normal birth control fails or people act irresponsibly and get pregnant. Abortion costs 10x what birth control does and there should be almost NO need for abortion whatsoever.
Although I am opposed to abortion, I realize it is the law of the land, but I think we should do every thing within our power to lesson the amount of abortions in this country to the point that women that repeatedly get abortions should be mandatory sterilized. Same thing with men, especially that nut case in Knoxville that has fathered 30 kids with different women and is making minimum wage. Do you realize the costs we are going to have to bear as a society for wreck-less behavior like that?
It is up to the employer. In the beginning employer provided health insurance was a way for an employer to attract employees and incentive to retain employees.
Health insurance is health insurance. If the employer is offering health insurance, then the insurance should cover modern health care practices and procedures. The employer does not get to define what is "moral" health care and what isn't. They don't get to define what IS health care and what isn't. They get to choose whether to offer it as part of their compensation or not. That's it.
Please explain to me why you think an employer should be in charge of defining what health care is for ANYONE. They aren't medical experts. They aren't moral experts. And they aren't insurance experts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HisServant
If you don't like the insurance coverage provided by your employer, you are free to leave and go work for somewhere else.
So by this reasoning, employers should be allowed to do anything they want, because if the employee doesn't like it, they can leave. Right? So, the employer can lie to people about how much he's going to pay them, because when they get their paycheck and find that it's half of what they were told it would be, they can just quit. Right? Or, even though the employee left one job to take another, only to find out that the new boss has decided that he requires sexual favors as part of the job and didn't say anything about it before, that's OK, too, because the employee can always just leave. Right?
The point here is that employment has to have some legal parameters to protect both the employees and the employers from abuse. And this is why employers don't get to do whatever they want to because the employee can always quit. Yes, the employee can always quit, but this will not in itself stop all kinds of abuses. So we have rules in place to govern the interactions between employers and employees, just as we have to have rules in place to govern all other kinds of human interaction. Human beings will abuse each other, otherwise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HisServant
One would hope that the Catholic would provide better than average care for their employees due to the savings they would get from not having to provide birth control or abortion.
One would hope they would transcend their own moral bigotry and offer their employees at least the same level of health care that other employees get, but obviously this is too much to hope for. No matter how they spin it, partial health care is not going to become better health care.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HisServant
And people wonder why companies in this country are going down the tubes.. year after year after year, the government either a.) passes unfunded mandates that employers must absorb or pass onto its customers, b.) They pass required employee benefits that are again passed onto its customers. Thereby making their products uncompetitive in the marketplace.
Yeah, blame it all on the government. That's the corporate cool-aid way, all right. But the reason small businesses are failing isn't because their employees need good health care. We ALL need good health care. And in the wealthiest country in the world, there is no good reason why we can't all have good health care. Except that the insurance industry, the drug industry, the medical conglomerates, and the politicians who they are bribing to keep things as they are don't want us all to have good health care. Because it's lots better for them to sell a little health care to a few wealthy people at a huge profit than it is to sell a lot of health care to a lot of people for a little profit. And they really don't care how that effects anyone else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HisServant
No wonder companies are fleeing this country and using labor abroad... its gotten to the point where nothing is out of bounds for the federal government to meddle in.
Yeah, it's all the government's fault. Never the fault of greedy corporations and the legalized system of bribery they use to gouge us all for more and more money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HisServant
If you want to provide universal equal coverage than get the federal government to pass a single payer plan. Otherwise, quit getting indignant when the federal government tries to back door universal coverage on the backs of industry.
Right, because corporations are famous for their concern for the public's health and well-being.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HisServant
As far as me, I have no problem with birth control... but abortion is not a method of birth control, its a last resort when normal birth control fails or people act irresponsibly and get pregnant. Abortion costs 10x what birth control does and there should be almost NO need for abortion whatsoever.
Although I am opposed to abortion, I realize it is the law of the land, but I think we should do every thing within our power to lesson the amount of abortions in this country to the point that women that repeatedly get abortions should be mandatory sterilized. Same thing with men, especially that nut case in Knoxville that has fathered 30 kids with different women and is making minimum wage. Do you realize the costs we are going to have to bear as a society for wreck-less behavior like that?
There are all kinds of reckless behaviors that cost us all kinds of money. Abortion is a very, very small drop in that bucket. And allowing people to ignore the laws for religious reasons certainly isn't going to make things anything better. What it will do is allow big religious institutions to freely discriminate against anyone who doesn't agree with them. And that will only make a lot of bad things a whole lot worse.
Slogan/motto:
For as much as it depends on you, live at peace with others.
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May 27th, 2012, 12:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PureX
Health insurance is health insurance. If the employer is offering health insurance, then the insurance should cover modern health care practices and procedures. The employer does not get to define what is "moral" health care and what isn't. They don't get to define what IS health care and what isn't. They get to choose whether to offer it as part of their compensation or not. That's it.
Because it is voluntary... currently employers are not required to provide insurance at all. And from what I have heard, when Obama care takes effect, quite a few companies are going to drop coverage for all their employees and just pay the fine instead (which is cheaper than providing care).
Employers should have the choice as to what they want to pay for and what they don't... its the American Way.
Besides, Obama care is going to go down in flames when the Supreme Court rules it unconstitutional, so this line off thinking is moot anyway.
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For as much as it depends on you, live at peace with others.
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May 27th, 2012, 12:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PureX
Yeah, blame it all on the government. That's the corporate cool-aid way, all right. But the reason small businesses are failing isn't because their employees need good health care.
I closed up my business 10 years ago and put 25 people out of work because I got tired of being turned into a paper pusher for government red tape. I also looked at the bottom line as far is what it cost me in overhead to just comply with governmental regulations and it just wasn't worth it for me any more.
I started my business because I loved the service I provided to my customers.. it became impossible for me to do that anymore. Between all the payroll mess, workman's comp, unemployment, healthcare, state and local licensing fees it got to the point where I was just working for the system.. instead of doing what I wanted to do with my life.
Since I was a licensed professional in the business I was running and had to review and sign all the plans that went out the door + deal with the overhead + have 2 kids at home that needed more than just their mother.. it just wasn't worth it.
So much for scriptures command to not sue and work out your differences instead.
And so much for the Constitution if O had his way.
“Behind the barricades of pre-established structures, the foxes of the intellect may engage in clever reasoning, but the lion of Being continues to roar outside the gate.” ~ Tarthang Tulku
Health insurance is health insurance. If the employer is offering health insurance, then the insurance should cover modern health care practices and procedures. The employer does not get to define what is "moral" health care and what isn't. They don't get to define what IS health care and what isn't. They get to choose whether to offer it as part of their compensation or not. That's it.
Please explain to me why you think an employer should be in charge of defining what health care is for ANYONE. They aren't medical experts. They aren't moral experts. And they aren't insurance experts.
So by this reasoning, employers should be allowed to do anything they want, because if the employee doesn't like it, they can leave. Right? So, the employer can lie to people about how much he's going to pay them, because when they get their paycheck and find that it's half of what they were told it would be, they can just quit. Right? Or, even though the employee left one job to take another, only to find out that the new boss has decided that he requires sexual favors as part of the job and didn't say anything about it before, that's OK, too, because the employee can always just leave. Right?
The point here is that employment has to have some legal parameters to protect both the employees and the employers from abuse. And this is why employers don't get to do whatever they want to because the employee can always quit. Yes, the employee can always quit, but this will not in itself stop all kinds of abuses. So we have rules in place to govern the interactions between employers and employees, just as we have to have rules in place to govern all other kinds of human interaction. Human beings will abuse each other, otherwise.
One would hope they would transcend their own moral bigotry and offer their employees at least the same level of health care that other employees get, but obviously this is too much to hope for. No matter how they spin it, partial health care is not going to become better health care.
Yeah, blame it all on the government. That's the corporate cool-aid way, all right. But the reason small businesses are failing isn't because their employees need good health care. We ALL need good health care. And in the wealthiest country in the world, there is no good reason why we can't all have good health care. Except that the insurance industry, the drug industry, the medical conglomerates, and the politicians who they are bribing to keep things as they are don't want us all to have good health care. Because it's lots better for them to sell a little health care to a few wealthy people at a huge profit than it is to sell a lot of health care to a lot of people for a little profit. And they really don't care how that effects anyone else.
Yeah, it's all the government's fault. Never the fault of greedy corporations and the legalized system of bribery they use to gouge us all for more and more money.
Right, because corporations are famous for their concern for the public's health and well-being.
There are all kinds of reckless behaviors that cost us all kinds of money. Abortion is a very, very small drop in that bucket. And allowing people to ignore the laws for religious reasons certainly isn't going to make things anything better. What it will do is allow big religious institutions to freely discriminate against anyone who doesn't agree with them. And that will only make a lot of bad things a whole lot worse.
You sound like a typical liberal moron who hates the same people who provide his job, and has never had to provide an affordable healthcare plan for employees.
Marge: "Aren't you going to give him the last rites?"
Rev. Lovejoy: "That's Catholic, Marge - you might as well ask me to do a voodoo dance."
"Oh bother" said Pooh, as he chambered the next round.
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Benjamin Franklin
Because it is voluntary... currently employers are not required to provide insurance at all. And from what I have heard, when Obama care takes effect, quite a few companies are going to drop coverage for all their employees and just pay the fine instead (which is cheaper than providing care).
Employers should have the choice as to what they want to pay for and what they don't... its the American Way.
Besides, Obama care is going to go down in flames when the Supreme Court rules it unconstitutional, so this line off thinking is moot anyway.
Employers should even be involved in anyone's health care. That's giant mistake #1. Giant mistake #2 is thinking that a free market can solve our health care problems. All a free market will do for health care is make it very expensive and inaccessible to most people. Because free markets don't care who lives or who dies. All they care about is how to make the most money providing the least service. And Giant mistake #3 is letting corporate propaganda convince you you can't have good health care when most of the civilized nations of the world are already providing excellent health care to their citizens for half of what we are already paying.
But the overall problem of health care was not the issue of this thread. The issue of this thread was about religious organizations wanting to discriminate against people regarding their health care, based on their religion. Which is simply wrong. But I agree that employers should not have to pay for employees health care at all. Unfortunately, this is part of the overall health care mess.
(By the way, we all have to pay for lots of things we don't want to pay for. Employers are no exception.)
You sound like a typical liberal moron who hates the same people who provide his job, and has never had to provide an affordable healthcare plan for employees.
Slogan/motto:
For as much as it depends on you, live at peace with others.
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May 28th, 2012, 05:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PureX
But the overall problem of health care was not the issue of this thread. The issue of this thread was about religious organizations wanting to discriminate against people regarding their health care, based on their religion. Which is simply wrong. But I agree that employers should not have to pay for employees health care at all. Unfortunately, this is part of the overall health care mess.
Oh Please... discrimination my butt.
When someone resorts to the discrimination fallback position.. you know they have lost the argument.
I just love the way people rationalize the Constitution away.
“Behind the barricades of pre-established structures, the foxes of the intellect may engage in clever reasoning, but the lion of Being continues to roar outside the gate.” ~ Tarthang Tulku
May 26th, 2012, 06:17 AM
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