[Wile E. Coyote]

Originally Posted by Lazy afternoon

The angels who appeared as men with the Lord who also appeared as a man shows that man is also made in the image of THEM.

Your view requires that the angels were created before man. What is your evidence that the angels were created before man? The devil was an angel and he was created AFTER man was created. If the angels were created after man was created, then your whole theory falls to the ground.

Moreover, you imply that angels are God. God said, "Let US make man in OUR image" Then it says, "and so God made man in HIS own image." Therefore, by your method the angels are God.

Jesus Himself inherited the name of Christ and that name is the name of the Heavenly Fathers anointing Spirit, which is not another person to Himself but is Him.

This is contrary to scripture. Moses suffered for Christ, Hebrews 11:26. Paul said that it was Christ who led the people through the wilderness and whom also the people tempted, 1 Corinthians 10:4, 9.

Jesus Himself has His Fathers name as also do the 144000 of Rev.ch 14.

The 144,000 have the Father's name written upon their foreheads. Jesus does not. The inscription on the forehead indicates that the 144,000 were God's servants. Jesus does not have it written on His forehead. Furthermore, it says that the Lamb's name is also written upon their foreheads. Therefore, they are the Lamb's servants too.

Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name AND the name of His Father written on their foreheads. Revelation 14:1 NASB

So you agree that Jesus is a man in the image of God.

All Trinitarians believe that Jesus became a man.

Your posts are all assumption and no exegesis.

[Lazy afternoon]

Originally Posted by Wile E. Coyote

Your view requires that the angels were created before man. What is your evidence that the angels were created before man? The devil was an angel and he was created AFTER man was created. If the angels were created after man was created, then your whole theory falls to the ground.

Moreover, you imply that angels are God. God said, "Let US make man in OUR image" Then it says, "and so God made man in HIS own image." Therefore, by your method the angels are God.


This is contrary to scripture. Moses suffered for Christ, Hebrews 11:26. Paul said that it was Christ who led the people through the wilderness and whom also the people tempted, 1 Corinthians 10:4, 9.


The 144,000 have the Father's name written upon their foreheads. Jesus does not. The inscription on the forehead indicates that the 144,000 were God's servants. Jesus does not have it written on His forehead. Furthermore, it says that the Lamb's name is also written upon their foreheads. Therefore, they are the Lamb's servants too.

Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name AND the name of His Father written on their foreheads. Revelation 14:1 NASB


All Trinitarians believe that Jesus became a man.

Your posts are all assumption and no exegesis.

Why can you not deal with the OP.

LA

[Wile E. Coyote]

Originally Posted by Lazy afternoon

Why can you not deal with the OP.

LA

Because your op is way too long and it contains way too many technical points regarding grammar. I try to keep it simple for people. I'll make a deal with you. YOU select two points from your op and I will discuss them with you. Pick one grammatical point and one other point.

Meanwhile ponder this:

7 Come, let US go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.” 8 So YHWH scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city. Genesis 11:7 NKJV

The "US" does not include the angels.

[Nick M]

Originally Posted by Wile E. Coyote

"Let US create man in OUR image and after OUR likeness."

Lazy afternoon does not understand that a being cannot possess personhood without another of his own kind. A being can have identity only in community with another. If Christ was created as the LA erroneously thinks, then God did not become a person until then for a being is not a person by himself.

That was the angels, even though God created the world alone.

[bling]

Originally Posted by oatmeal

NO, a man and woman cannot be one person. They can be united in goals, aspirations, their desire to do God's will in their lives, but they remain two distinct humans with two distinct human bodies and souls and spirits.

I can agree with you, but scripture says:
Gen. 2: 24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

can two persons become "one flesh" and in that way be one?

[HisServant]

God may be one person, but he has chosen to reveal himself and interact with mankind through 3 distinct persons.

We must respect God's methods of revealing himself.

We are only to pray to the Father, for example.

[oatmeal]

Originally Posted by ttruscott

I think Trinitarianism follows directly from GOD IS LOVE.

For love to be real, it must have an object for its love. Love without a lover is highly suspect...(I mean, think about it. Who is the single god loving? Himself?) A relationship of caring and attention is a necessary part of love.

I know we are getting innured to believing in a void full of formless love from Eastern religions but even they, in the end, admit that love retards the person on his path to nirvanah, one reason I turned against them.

So three members of the trinity in a loving relationship fulfills GOD IS LOVE for me just fine. The fact that Satan got his religions in place with fake triunes first is immaterial.

Now, how do I describe this THREE are ONE, knowing all such descriptions fall short and thus open us to all kinds of accusations...

We have no problem identifying a human as part of humanity because we all share the same human attributes.

What is so strange about identifying the Divine Persons from (some of) their Divine attributes?

God the Father is an intelligent, self aware Person capable of pure love and true free will and who is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent.

God the Son is an intelligent, self aware Person capable of pure love and true free will and who is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent.

God the Holy Spirit is an intelligent, self aware Person capable of pure love and true free will and who is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent.

The Divine attributes of these three people form a complete unity called The ONE TRUE LIVING GOD, such that in speaking of them in their unity, the word ONE is the perfect word to use.

This God is our Creator and the sum goodness of all life. God the Son is also the one we know as God incarnate, the man Jesus.

Ted

I think

What does God think?

What does scripture teach?

oatmeal

[oatmeal]

Originally Posted by bling

I can agree with you, but scripture says:
Gen. 2: 24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

can two persons become "one flesh" and in that way be one?

Yes, one flesh is scriptural.

Yet, there remain two separate fleshs. Do they morph into one flesh? Has anyone seen a husband and wife that combined into one and only one body?

Since the expression, "one flesh" cannot be taken literally, it must be a figure of speech.

The emphasis being the oneness in purpose that is achievable for a God loving married couple.

How awesome, how incredible it must be to have a spouse that is one in purpose with you to love God completely and endeavor in all things to do His will and His will only.

o'meal

[NewDay]

Originally Posted by oatmeal

Yes, one flesh is scriptural.

Yet, there remain two separate fleshs. Do they morph into one flesh? Has anyone seen a husband and wife that combined into one and only one body?

Since the expression, "one flesh" cannot be taken literally, it must be a figure of speech.

The emphasis being the oneness in purpose that is achievable for a God loving married couple.

How awesome, how incredible it must be to have a spouse that is one in purpose with you to love God completely and endeavor in all things to do His will and His will only.

o'meal

Amen, it is a wonderful thing when you finally experience your 'soul mate', it is even more wonderful when you have to fight the world to remain together. Why do I say that it is wonderful? The world can see the light of true love. In my case, it is true.

[Lazy afternoon]

Originally Posted by Wile E. Coyote

Because your op is way too long and it contains way too many technical points regarding grammar. I try to keep it simple for people. I'll make a deal with you. YOU select two points from your op and I will discuss them with you. Pick one grammatical point and one other point.

Meanwhile ponder this:

7 Come, let US go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.” 8 So YHWH scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city. Genesis 11:7 NKJV

The "US" does not include the angels.

You have the choice to pick anything in the OP to discuss but you can find nothing to prove wrong.

Your views are straight Roman Catholic , the fallen church.


Where is your proof that YHVH was not speaking to the angels.

You have none.

LA

[Wile E. Coyote]

Originally Posted by Lazy afternoon

You have the choice to pick anything in the OP to discuss but you can find nothing to prove wrong.



LA

Heis, one virtually by union (Moulton's Analytical Greek Lexicon)

Example from Galatians 3:20. Paul made the point that a mediator necessitates more than one party saying that God is one and implying that man is one. But man is a composite one. God is also a composite one. Man is one party but many persons. So God is one party but three persons. Verse 28 confirms that "heis" indicates a composite one.

Originally Posted by Lazy afternoon

Where is your proof that YHVH was not speaking to the angels.

You have none.

I have already given you the proof. God said, "Let US go down and confuse their language." Then it says, "YHWH cattered them abroad...."

It specifically says that "YHWH scattered them abroad" with no mention of angels. Your view infers that angels are Gods alongside of God.

Abraham himself told Abimelech that "the Gods" caused him to wander, Genesis 20:13. The word "Elohim" with the singular verb is translated "God." But with the plural verb it is translated "Gods." Abraham said that Elohim caused him to wander using the plural verb. Our English translations say "God" in the singular because the translators were afraid that it would imply polytheism. This is the only instance inwhich the translators render "God" in the singular when it is used with a plural verb.

But Abraham said that Elohim caused him to wander using the plural verb,

And it came to pass, when the Gods caused me to wander from my father’s house, that I said to her, ‘This is your kindness that you should do for me: in every place, wherever we go, say of me, “He is my brother.”’” Genesis 20:13

If "the Gods" included angels, then you clearly infer that angels are Gods alongside of God and you have no right to find fault with Trinitarians.

BTW, your remark about the Catholic Church is ad hominen. I am interested in scripture alone.

[Lazy afternoon]

[quote=Wile E. Coyote;3085703]Heis, one virtually by union (Young's Analytical Greek Lexicon)

Example from Galatians 3:20. Paul made the point that a mediator necessitates more than one party saying that God is one and implying that man is one. But man is a composite one. God is

also a composite one. Man is one party but many persons. So God is one party but three persons. Verse 28 confirms that "heis" indicates a composite one.

Read the OP.

I have already given you the proof. God said, "Let US go down and confuse their language." Then it says, "YHWH cattered them abroad...."

It specifically says that "YHWH scattered them abroad" with no mention of angels. Your view infers that angels are Gods alongside of God.

Abraham himself told Abimelech that "the Gods" caused him to wander, Genesis 20:13. The word "Elohim" with the singular verb is translated "God." But with the plural verb it is translated "Gods." Abraham said that Elohim caused him to wander using the plural verb. Our English translations say "God" in the singular because the translators were afraid that it would imply polytheism. This is the only instance inwhich the translators render "God" in the singular when it is used with a plural verb.

But Abraham said that Elohim caused him to wander using the plural verb,

And it came to pass, when the Gods caused me to wander from my father’s house, that I said to her, ‘This is your kindness that you should do for me: in every place, wherever we go, say of me, “He is my brother.”’” Genesis 20:13

If "the Gods" included angels, then you clearly infer that angels are Gods alongside of God and you have no right to find fault with Trinitarians.

You are wrong again.

When God uses His agents to do or say something, it is the same as Him doing or saying it.

Gen 19:13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.
Gen 19:14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.


Gen 19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

Go count how many times the plural word elohim is used with the singular "He", NOT they and how Moses was referred to by God as an elohim.

BTW, your remark about the Catholic Church is ad hominen. I am interested in scripture alone.

Then keep it at that in the future, or I'LL BE BACK.

LA

[Wile E. Coyote]

Originally Posted by Lazy afternoon

[ Read the OP.

First a correction regarding a source. I typed "Young's Analytical Greek Lexicon" when I meant to type Moulton's Analytical Greek Lexicon. I edited and made the correction in that post.

Originally Posted by Lazy afternoon

[ Read the OP.

I read the op more than once and I am just as baffled now as I was then. You admit that 'heis' indicates a composite one. Your admission helps the Trinitrian.

Originally Posted by Lazy afternoon

You are wrong again.

When God uses His agents to do or say something, it is the same as Him doing or saying it.


Gen 19:13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.
Gen 19:14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.


Gen 19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

First, your argument begs the question. You assume that there are agents in Genesis 11:7 when none are mentioned.

Second, they were NOT mere agents in Genesis 19 but were YHWH Himself.

1. Verse 13 says that an outcry came before the FACES of YHWH. The Hebrew word for 'face' is plural. The 'face' in scripture denotes the actual person. It says that the outcry came before the FACES of YHWH. Therefore, YHWH is more than one person and you have been disproven. See the plural 'faces' in the online Hebrew Interlinear for Genesis 19:13.

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...brew_Index.htm

2. Verse 24 says that YHWH rained down fire FROM YHWH

Then YHWH rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, FROM YHWH out of the heavens.

More than one person!

Originally Posted by Lazy afternoon

Go count how many times the plural word elohim is used with the singular "He", NOT they and how Moses was referred to by God as an elohim.

1. So what! In Genesis 1:26-27 the man and the woman are referred to in the plural "Them" and then in the singular "He" just like God!

2. Moses was called an elohim to Pharoah and not to the people of God.


Moses wrote the Pentateuch after he received the law at Sinai. He wrote it after he received the law against profaning the name of YHWH, Leviticus 24:16. I marvel that you can suggest that Moses would call YHWH's agents by the name "YHWH" when they were not YHWH after he received the law which prohibited it.

I marvel that you can fault Trinitarians for calling Jesus by the name YHWH when you say YHWH's agents are called YHWH. I marvel also that you cannot see God's tri-unity when three persons appeared to Abraham who were called "YHWH."

You have been disproven. Verse 13 says that the outcry went before the FACES of YHWH. The face denotes the person. Therefore, if God has "faces" (plural), then He is more than one Person.

[glorydaz]

Originally Posted by Wile E. Coyote

"Let US create man in OUR image and after OUR likeness."

Lazy afternoon does not understand that a being cannot possess personhood without another of his own kind. A being can have identity only in community with another. If Christ was created as the LA erroneously thinks, then God did not become a person until then for a being is not a person by himself.

Isn't it when God became flesh in the person of Jesus, that the relationship became clearly seen and named? Thus we see God as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the NT in a way that was not as plainly revealed in the OT.

[Wile E. Coyote]

Originally Posted by glorydaz

Isn't it when God became flesh in the person of Jesus, that the relationship became clearly seen and named? Thus we see God as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the NT in a way that was not as plainly revealed in the OT.

Agreed. It was not as plainly revealed in the old testament.