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The Root Error of Calvinism -
May 28th, 2012, 02:12 PM
Today one of the chief spokesmen for the Reformed view is Dr. R.C. Sproul and his following statement correctly marks the major difference between Calvinism and other belief systems:
"When someone mentions the term 'Calvinism,' the customary response is, 'Oh, you mean the doctrine of predestination?' This identification of Calvinism with predestination is as strange as it is real and widespread...In summary we may define 'predestination' broadly as follows: From all eternity God decided to save some members of the human race and to let the rest of the human race perish. God made a choice--he chose some individuals to be saved unto everlasting blessedness in heaven, and he chose others to pass over, allowing them to suffer the consequences of their sins, eternal punishment in hell" [emphasis mine] (R.C. Sproul, What is Reformed Theology? [Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 2005], 141).
Sproul's words "from all eternity" are of course derived from the Apostle Paul's words "before the foundation of the world" in the following verse:
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).
There can be no doubt that the phrase "before the foundation of the world" is speaking about the "eternal state." Here Sproul makes a distinction between God's existence in the eternal state and that of man's exisence as being bound by time and space:
"One of the chief axioms taught by John Calvin was expressed by the Reformer in the Latin phrase 'Finitum non capax,' 'The Finite cannot grasp (or contain) the infinite.' Because God is infinite in his being and eternal, and we are finite and bound by both space and time, our knowledge of him is never comprehensive. We enjoy an apprehensive knowledge of God, but not a comprehenseive knowledge" [emphasis mine] (R.C. Sproul, What is Reformed Theology? 32).
God, being both infinite and eternal, is not bound by either space or time, as we are. This principle has long been understood within Calvinist circles. William Ames (1576-1655) was one of the foremost of Reformed thinkers, often known as "the Learned Doctor Ames" because of his great intellectual stature among Puritans, said:
"Thereis properly only one act of the will in God because in Him all things are simultaneous and there is nothing before or after. So there is only decree about the end and means, but for the manner of understanding we say that, so far as intention is concerned, God wills the end before the means" [emphasis mine](William Ames, The Marrow of Theology, translation and introduction by John, Dystra, Eudsen, [Boston: The Pilgrim Press, 1968], 153-154).
According to Ames all things in the eternal state are "simultaneous and there is nothing before or after." Therefore it could be said that God chose us for salvation before the foundation of the world and it could also be said that God did not choose us for salvation until we believed:
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thess.2:13-14).
John Wesley understood that when the Scriptures speak of God doing things in "time" then the "time element" in that verse cannot be taken literally:
"Not that God has any need of counsel, of purpose, or of planning his work beforehand. Far be it from us to impute these to the Most High; to measure him by ourselves! It is merely in compassion to us that he speaks thus of himself, as foreknowing the things in heaven or earth, and as predestinating or fore-ordaining them. But can we possibly imagine that these expressions are to be taken literally?" [emphasis mine] (John Wesley, Sermons on Several Occasions, 1771, Second Series, On Predestination, Sermon #58; Christian Classics Ethereal Library).
Since all things with God in the eternal state are simultaneous and with Him there is no "before" ot "after" then common sense dictates that the "time element" in any verse that speaks of God doing things BEFORE other things cannot be taken in a literal sense. However, Calvinism is built on the foundation of a literal reading of the "time element" found in the following verse:
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).
It is absolutely essential to distinguish between the "divine, eternal perspective" and the the "mortal, time-bound perspective." It is a grave mistake to take the things in regard to the "eternal" state and apply them directly to the state which is bound by both space and time as if there is no difference.
The Calvinists build their whole theology on a literal reading of verses that should not be taken literally.
If Eph 1:4 is not to be taken literally, then how is it to be taken?
God exists outside of time then any instance where we see God doing things in "time" we can only understand that verse as being figurative and the figure of speech is:
"Anthropopatheia": "Ascribing to God what belongs to human and rational beings, irrational creatures, or inanimate things" (The Companion Bible, Appendix #6: Figures of Speech).
Therefore, in verses like Ephesians 1:4 the "time element" cannot be taken literally.
In "time" no one is chosen for salvation until he believes:
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thess.2:13-14).
Again, since all things with God in the eternal state are simultaneous and with Him there is no "before" ot "after" then common sense dictates that the "time element" in any verse that speaks of God doing things BEFORE other things cannot be taken in a literal sense.
Today one of the chief spokesmen for the Reformed view is Dr. R.C. Sproul and his following statement correctly marks the major difference between Calvinism and other belief systems:
"When someone mentions the term 'Calvinism,' the customary response is, 'Oh, you mean the doctrine of predestination?' This identification of Calvinism with predestination is as strange as it is real and widespread...In summary we may define 'predestination' broadly as follows: From all eternity God decided to save some members of the human race and to let the rest of the human race perish. God made a choice--he chose some individuals to be saved unto everlasting blessedness in heaven, and he chose others to pass over, allowing them to suffer the consequences of their sins, eternal punishment in hell" [emphasis mine] (R.C. Sproul, What is Reformed Theology? [Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 2005], 141).
Sproul's words "from all eternity" are of course derived from the Apostle Paul's words "before the foundation of the world" in the following verse:
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).
There can be no doubt that the phrase "before the foundation of the world" is speaking about the "eternal state." Here Sproul makes a distinction between God's existence in the eternal state and that of man's exisence as being bound by time and space:
"One of the chief axioms taught by John Calvin was expressed by the Reformer in the Latin phrase 'Finitum non capax,' 'The Finite cannot grasp (or contain) the infinite.' Because God is infinite in his being and eternal, and we are finite and bound by both space and time, our knowledge of him is never comprehensive. We enjoy an apprehensive knowledge of God, but not a comprehenseive knowledge" [emphasis mine] (R.C. Sproul, What is Reformed Theology? 32).
God, being both infinite and eternal, is not bound by either space or time, as we are. This principle has long been understood within Calvinist circles. William Ames (1576-1655) was one of the foremost of Reformed thinkers, often known as "the Learned Doctor Ames" because of his great intellectual stature among Puritans, said:
"Thereis properly only one act of the will in God because in Him all things are simultaneous and there is nothing before or after. So there is only decree about the end and means, but for the manner of understanding we say that, so far as intention is concerned, God wills the end before the means" [emphasis mine](William Ames, The Marrow of Theology, translation and introduction by John, Dystra, Eudsen, [Boston: The Pilgrim Press, 1968], 153-154).
According to Ames all things in the eternal state are "simultaneous and there is nothing before or after." Therefore it could be said that God chose us for salvation before the foundation of the world and it could also be said that God did not choose us for salvation until we believed:
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thess.2:13-14).
John Wesley understood that when the Scriptures speak of God doing things in "time" then the "time element" in that verse cannot be taken literally:
"Not that God has any need of counsel, of purpose, or of planning his work beforehand. Far be it from us to impute these to the Most High; to measure him by ourselves! It is merely in compassion to us that he speaks thus of himself, as foreknowing the things in heaven or earth, and as predestinating or fore-ordaining them. But can we possibly imagine that these expressions are to be taken literally?" [emphasis mine] (John Wesley, Sermons on Several Occasions, 1771, Second Series, On Predestination, Sermon #58; Christian Classics Ethereal Library).
Since all things with God in the eternal state are simultaneous and with Him there is no "before" ot "after" then common sense dictates that the "time element" in any verse that speaks of God doing things BEFORE other things cannot be taken in a literal sense. However, Calvinism is built on the foundation of a literal reading of the "time element" found in the following verse:
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).
It is absolutely essential to distinguish between the "divine, eternal perspective" and the the "mortal, time-bound perspective." It is a grave mistake to take the things in regard to the "eternal" state and apply them directly to the state which is bound by both space and time as if there is no difference.
The Calvinists build their whole theology on a literal reading of verses that should not be taken literally.
The problem I have with that is, it can be taken literal but a literal as God sees and we can only see by revelation. Calvinism does not take you there nor suggests the possibility but relegates everything it doesn't understand to being a mystery that which cannot be learned by common sense.
God exists outside of time then any instance where we see God doing things in "time" we can only understand that verse as being figurative and the figure of speech is:
"Anthropopatheia": "Ascribing to God what belongs to human and rational beings, irrational creatures, or inanimate things" (The Companion Bible, Appendix #6: Figures of Speech).
Therefore, in verses like Ephesians 1:4 the "time element" cannot be taken literally.
In "time" no one is chosen for salvation until he believes:
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thess.2:13-14).
Again, since all things with God in the eternal state are simultaneous and with Him there is no "before" ot "after" then common sense dictates that the "time element" in any verse that speaks of God doing things BEFORE other things cannot be taken in a literal sense.
Perhaps my question was unclear? I know that you have said what you think it does not mean but I want to know what you think it does mean? And I wasn't asking about "verses like Ephesians 1:4 ", I was asking about Eph 1:4.
Total Misanthropy. Uncertain salvation. Luck of the draw. Irresistible damnation. Persecution of the saints.
Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever. Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. - Let's at least work at it?
*************************************
Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
Again, since all things with God in the eternal state are simultaneous and with Him there is no "before" ot "after" then common sense dictates that the "time element" in any verse that speaks of God doing things BEFORE other things cannot be taken in a literal sense.
"But in the fulness of time God sent forth His Son born of a woman born under the law."
Perhaps my question was unclear? I know that you have said what you think it does not mean but I want to know what you think it does mean? And I wasn't asking about "verses like Ephesians 1:4 ", I was asking about Eph 1:4.
I think that Ephesians 1:4 means that we were chosen by God. However, I do not take the "time element" literally. Let us look at the verse in more detail:
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).
John Calvin correctly understood that the term "in Him" is referring to the Body of Christ:
" 'In Christ.' This is the second proof that the election is free; for if we are chosen in Christ, it is not of ourselves. It is not from a perception of anything that we deserve, but because our heavenly Father has introduced us, through the privilege of adoption, into the body of Christ. In short, the name of Christ excludes all merit, and everything which men have of their own; for when he says that we are chosen in Christ, it follows that in ourselves we are unworthy" (John Calvin, Commentary at Ephesians 1:4).
How can anyone be chosen "into the Body of Christ" before the foundation of the world since the Body of Christ did not even exist then? Obviously Paul was using figurative language.
You just have to deal with Ephesians 1:4 like you would any verse which contains figurative language. First realize that it is being spoken of in a figurative sense and do not try to build your theology on that figurative language.
How can anyone be chosen "into the Body of Christ" before the foundation of the world since the Body of Christ did not even exist then? Obviously Paul was using figurative language.
Only if you are open theist or process theologian. No for everybody else!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart
You just have to deal with Ephesians 1:4 like you would any verse which contains figurative language.
Only if you are an open theist, and even some of them (like in this thread) disagree with you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart
First realize that it is being spoken of in a figurative sense and do not try to build your theology on that figurative language.
Only, if you, Jerry Shugart, are an open theist or process theologian. Otherwise 'no' and we can leave you with your pastor otherwise for remedial theology class while the rest of the adults talk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart
Again, since all things with God in the eternal state are simultaneous and with Him there is no "before" ot "after" then common sense dictates that the "time element" in any verse that speaks of God doing things BEFORE other things cannot be taken in a literal sense.
DR is right here because all but Jerry thinks God is unrelational to time. Yes DR and I disagree as to the extent of God's relationship to us in time. He believing fully, I and all other non process or ov - relational but in part (unconstrained, relational to).
Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever. Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. - Let's at least work at it?
*************************************
Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
"But in the fulness of time God sent forth His Son born of a woman born under the law."
As Calvinist William Ames said, "in Him all things are simultaneous and there is nothing before or after."
That does not mean that God cannot interact with this universe which is contrained by time.
Calvinist Martyn Loyd-Jones explains God's relationship to time in the following manner:
"God is like a man making a watch or clock — He Himself is outside it, He exists without it, He is not a part of it. The watchmaker makes the watch, he winds it up, he sets it going, he is outside the process but he initiates the process, he sets the hands in motion. That may help us a little to understand the relationship of God to time. But, according to this biblical teaching, God set the process going and He keeps it going" (Martyn Loyd-Jones, God and Time).
God sent His Son into the world according to the "fulness of time" within the created universe but yet He remains outside of time. But just because He remains outside of time does not mean that He cannot interact with a system that is constrained by time.
Only, if you, Jerry Shugart, are an open theist or process theologian. Otherwise 'no' and we can leave you with your pastor otherwise for remedial theology class while the rest of the adults talk.
The Calvinists I am quoting are certainly not open theologians or process theologians. I am using their ideas so if you cannot deal with what they say attack them instead of me.
The adults on this forum actually deal with what is being said--unlike you, who can only revert to the behavior of a child who attacks the messenger because he cannot answer the message.
Slogan/motto:
I know a lot of fancy dancers
People who can glide you on a floor
They move so smooth but have no answers
When you ask "Why'd you come here for?"
~ Cat Stevens
Reputation:
May 28th, 2012, 04:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart
Sproul's words "from all eternity" are of course derived from the Apostle Paul's words "before the foundation of the world" in the following verse:
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).
There can be no doubt that the phrase "before the foundation of the world" is speaking about the "eternal state." Here Sproul makes a distinction between God's existence in the eternal state and that of man's exisence as being bound by time and space:
I'm sorry but GOD is not off the hook for creating people just to be allowed to pay for their sins in hell due to a semantic trick about the time. I don't care what time it is to GOD, He never:
Quote:
Originally Posted by R.C.Sproul
...chose others to pass over, allowing them to suffer the consequences of their sins, eternal punishment in hell"
Sproul also gets it wrong with:
Quote:
There can be no doubt that the phrase "before the foundation of the world" is speaking about the "eternal state".
because I completely doubt it by the leading of the Holy Spirit.
There is no doubt in his mind but that does not create proof no matter how "faith" is defined as proof or why are Muslem fanatics who are full of living faith not rewarded by the proof of their faith? Faith in a mis-interpretation is not a proof, not an evidence at all.
So if "before the foundation of the world" is NOT speaking about the "eternal state" what state is suggested?
Pre-Conception Existence suggests most strongly that the state of things at the time of election is AFTER the creation of every spirit in HIS image; intelligent, creative and able to make a true free will choice, and AFTER the first true free will choice to accept GOd's purpose for our creation or to reject it, was finished, all of which happened BEFORE the creation of the physical universe and the earth was thereby "founded"...
Since it is a major tennant to PCE that full disclosure is necessary for a free will choice be a true choice and not just a guess, I believe that the election with the gospel promise was put on the table before we chose.
[Think of it, even in the face of the promise that IF they just bowed in their heart (no faking it now) to GOD's purpose for them, they would be elected to heaven and if they ever fell into sin then Christ's death on the cross would redeem them,
Satan et al STILL put their faith in/chose to believe GOD was a liar and a false god. sigh.]
I know, I fail elementary Calvinism by rejecting Uconditional election as they call it, (the bolded U is very important to them) but since I believe that election was in reply to our choice to accept HIS purpose in our creation and therefore the gospel promise of salvation is for only the elect, not the non-elect, neither do I fit into the Arminian slot, sigh.
Lord Jesus help me, I've got all of 'em, Calvinists, Arminians and satanists all on my case, + plus I add, your holy angels because I am a sinner, <sigh...>
Peace, Ted
Wheat are NOT reborn tares !!!
Matt 13:36-43 good seed are sown by the Son of man tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil and, as per
Matthew 15:13 …Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up!
I know, I fail elementary Calvinism by rejecting Uconditional election as they call it, (the bolded U is very important to them) but since I believe that election was in reply to our choice to accept HIS purpose in our creation and therefore the gospel promise of salvation is for only the elect, not the non-elect, neither do I fit into the Arminian slot, sigh.
Like you I do not believe in Unconditional Election and the Calvinists have no answer for the following verse which demonstrates that we are chosen because we believe:
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thess.2:13-14).
Like you I do not believe in Unconditional Election and the Calvinists have no answer for the following verse which demonstrates that we are chosen because we believe:
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thess.2:13-14).
You make me laugh because the passage begins by saying, "We bound to always thank GOD...."
Slogan/motto:
I know a lot of fancy dancers
People who can glide you on a floor
They move so smooth but have no answers
When you ask "Why'd you come here for?"
~ Cat Stevens
Reputation:
May 28th, 2012, 05:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart
Like you I do not believe in Unconditional Election and the Calvinists have no answer for the following verse which demonstrates that we are chosen because we believe:
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thess.2:13-14).
Good to know... So, where do you fit?
Peace, Ted
Wheat are NOT reborn tares !!!
Matt 13:36-43 good seed are sown by the Son of man tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil and, as per
Matthew 15:13 …Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up!
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
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