Exclusively Christian TheologyThis forum is exclusively for those who consider themselves Christian and consider the Bible to be the inspired word of God.
Slogan/motto:
". . Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." Matthew 4:4
Reputation:
May 28th, 2012, 05:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Ducky
I tend to think of salvation as something that is both a process [beginning before time and continuing to the end] and something that takes place in a moment [although some appear to come to come to salvation gradually].
How are you defining "redemption" and "salvation?"
I do not see John 17:3 as being a problem for Reformed or non-Reformed. Obviously it [in isolation] has been used as a key verse for non-Trinitarians. But that is a different question and answer.
Peace,
Rick
Cross Reference is delivering a back-handed and obtuse denial of JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH ALONE, by arguing knowledge of God alone (without added works) is insufficient to provide ultimate salvation for those redeemed in Christ.
"The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."
"Experience teaches us nothing; revelation teaches all we need to know."
“ Those who proclaim that the sovereignty of God determines what justice is, (do so) by observing what God actually does. Whatever God does is just.”
So many have argued against Reformed thought with little basis in what most Reformed folk really do believe. We have much in common with all Christians, and some non-Christians. And where we do, in fact, differ, we are, of course, correct. Not that being Reformed is a matter of salvation, per se.
Peace,
Rick
And, oddly enough, they can't help not agreeing in thread with the OP and moving on, but must don quixote the calvinist windmill here instead on a matter of chilvalrous principle with a farm squire, donkey, and pitchfork.
Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever. Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. - Let's at least work at it?
*************************************
Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever. Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. - Let's at least work at it?
*************************************
Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
There are multiple threads here regarding Calvinism. Most start with incorrect premises about Calvinist [Reformed] thought. I think if we want to discuss any system of thought we should begin with "official" ideas, not what one thinks about the system. The below is from the Westminster Shorter Catechism, one of the "official" statements of Reformed thought.
Q. 5. Are there more Gods than one?
A. There is but one only,[18] the living and true God.[19]
[18]
Deuteronomy 6:4.
Isaiah 44:6.
Isaiah 45:21-22.
1 Corinthians 8:4-6.
[19]
Jeremiah 10:10.
John 17:3.
1 Thessalonians 1:9
1 John 5:20.
What do you think about this part of Calvinism?
I agree
"A time to throw stones and a time to gather stones; A time to embrace and a time to shun embracing. A time to search and a time to give up as lost; A time to keep and a time to throw away...."
Cross Reference is delivering a back-handed and obtuse denial of JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH ALONE, by arguing knowledge of God alone (without added works) is insufficient to provide ultimate salvation for those redeemed in Christ.
I tend to think of salvation as something that is both a process [beginning before time and continuing to the end] and something that takes place in a moment [although some appear to come to come to salvation gradually].
How are you defining "redemption" and "salvation?"
I do not see John 17:3 as being a problem for Reformed or non-Reformed. Obviously it [in isolation] has been used as a key verse for non-Trinitarians. But that is a different question and answer.
Peace,
Rick
Redemption, which we had nothing to do with, Jesus having done it alone as only He could, is the basis for new life; for a new creation whereby, if one is standing upon it this new foundation, he is a part of. It is a new beginning of a new Life with a new covenant. "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. . . . ” Revelation 21:5 (KJV) __present tense.
Basically, Redemption is the salvation for all mankind and absolutely free for those previously justified by their faith in God, regardless of not ever hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ. As Paul demonstrated in preaching to the Greeks, it is for ushering in the government of God; His Kingdom and for making disciples to it.
As in Paul’s experience, many in the world with faith in God have never yet heard the gospel which, being already justified by faith, have no knowledge of having “peace with God” made for them "through" [the blood of] "our Lord Jesus Christ": Romans 5:1 (KJV) Jesus said this in that regard: “I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” Luke 5:32 (KJV) Though the need to understand to be rectified to Christ as the reason for their faith, that by such faith God knowing who are His, don’t need to repent in the basic sense of the word. Should they die before hearing, they have been redeemed. They are saved.
BTW: that should put the squelch to anyone quoting Rom 3:10, and any other illusion to the idea of “total depravity”, believed so to support their ‘religious bent’, their un-Christlike agenda.
Again, Redemption can only be made effective in the life of those who KNOW what Redemption is all about, what the new covenant is, and that it is in Christ that it can only be made effective and for reasons that extend well beyond simply securing a paid up fire insurance policy which is very shallow teaching. Hello, Nang.
Jesus came to us that we might have life and have it more abundantly. The process of abiding in Him is the key, it being a process, He spoke to His Disciples, not to anyone else. Read John 17 in its entirety. Contemplate the issue of the hope in Jesus for His Disciples being MADE one in the Father.__by the necessary process of "becoming". It is the journey Home. "The glory you have given Me, I have given them."
Slogan/motto:
Luke 9:23 Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me."
Reputation:
May 29th, 2012, 07:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Ducky
Hi, Zip
I am not sure that these threads have to "go anywhere." I am sure that there are some Q & As that will lead to more active debate, but the nature of the posts is to show much common ground between Reformed and non-Reformed beliefs. You do not have to be Reformed, but if not Reformed one should not think of Reformed folk as heritics.
Peace,
Rick
Yes, but the common ground you are going for is held by Jews, Muslims, Native Americans, Deists, and arguably Hindus, Buddhists, and Taoists as well. For me that sort of thing doesn't do much to establish "common ground."
"If a sheerly linguistic version of the gospel could be concocted, it would merely so be no longer the gospel. In the Lutheran Reformation’s understanding, which we believe in this matter to be correct, the sacraments make the inalienable externality of the gospel message and therefore are necessary to the authenticity of that message." (Christian Dogmatics [1984], II:302-303 as cited in Pontifications)
Yes, but the common ground you are going for is held by Jews, Muslims, Native Americans, Deists, and arguably Hindus, Buddhists, and Taoists as well. For me that sort of thing doesn't do much to establish "common ground."
There are 107 Q and A pairs in the Shorter Catechism. I am sure that the common ground will be a lot more limited with further questions.
Not that being Reformed is a matter of salvation, per se.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
Linear Mode
