Since God hardens hearts, obeying God can be the very thing God destroys you for.
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The second part of your statement is both wrong and doesn't in any way follow logically from the first. It's as if you stated: Since grass is green, all fish must be great musicians.
God takes actions that He knows will result in people disobeying Him and in turn their ultimate destruction. God knew that none of the plagues, save the last, would result in Pharaoh letting the Isrealites go. God knew that the message He gave Isaiah would be ignored by the Jews. (Isaiah 6:9-13) Jesus knew that by speaking in parables, the bulk of those listening would be confused and not follow. (Matthew 10:10-13)
In none of these cases though did God command anyone to do anything for which He would later destroy them.
You reject that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, you say "hardened his heart" really means sent him teddy bears & preached the gospel to Pharaoh - your own mind & the scriptures will slowly digest you for that. I don't need to do the work for them. God is working even now, hardening your heart as you read this.
Yeah but, I know I am an emotional guy and maybe it's all me thinking I have received something when I really haven't. How can I be sure I am in God's grace?
Slogan/motto:
In a world with so many ready to hear, why waste words on the willfully deaf?
Reputation:
May 29th, 2012, 02:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by christnow
You reject that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, you say "hardened his heart" really means sent him teddy bears & preached the gospel to Pharaoh - your own mind & the scriptures will slowly digest you for that. I don't need to do the work for them. God is working even now, hardening your heart as you read this.
God hardened Pharoah's heart by sending plagues He knew would anger pharoah but not cause him to release the Isrealites. God didn't want Pharoah to release them until He was finished demonstrating His superiority to Egypt's gods including Pharoah himself and set in motion a series of events to assure that occured.
God did not want Pharoah to repent and assured Pharoah wouldn't through the actions He took. At no point though did He command that Pharoah do anything other than let the Isrealites go.
"When the lights go out all over the world, when history seems headed only into a dead end and total disaster, God brings forth light. He changes the direction of history and regenerates men and redirects events and institutions to fulfill His purposes."
No. I don't like youtube conversations. I want you to tell me. You persuaded me to follow you and now you want to cast me aside? Are you now saying I am on my own? You can't mean that. You hurt me.
In none of these cases though did God command anyone to do anything for which He would later destroy them.
Since you are lying to yourself, I just want to see how far you will go in living a lie, so I want to see the words you will type in response to this...
ADDRESS THESE 2 GREAT POINTS:
Point #1,
Jeremiah 4:10,
Then I said "Ah! Lord Jehovah, how completely you have deceived this people and Jerusalem by saying 'You will have peace' when the sword is at our throats!"
That has the prophet Jeremiah himself quoting God as telling the people "You will have peace", then Jeremiah flatly explains that that was a lie. Now, do you believe that God said this, and do you believe that God lied in saying that? If you say "no" to either one, then you are arguing with your bible at that point.
Point #2,
2 Samuel 24:1,
Again the anger of Jehovah burned against Israel and he incited David against them saying "Go and number Israel and Judah".
God punishes David for numbering Israel and Judah - another example of God hardening someone's heart and then punishing them for it. Here we have the direct command spelled out, David following what God said, and the direct punishment coming from the same God who commanded David for doing what he was commanded. What say you? How will you get out of this? I have my popcorn ready to hear your post, so that I can see what words one types when their world has imploded in on them.
No. I don't like youtube conversations. I want you to tell me. You persuaded me to follow you and now you want to cast me aside? Are you now saying I am on my own? You can't mean that. You hurt me.
Thank you for following me. All you need to do, is know that God hardens hearts & that obeying him doesn't guarantee that you wont be destroyed from him for it. All of Christianity mostly rejects this vital point because God has hardened their hearts.
Slogan/motto:
In a world with so many ready to hear, why waste words on the willfully deaf?
Reputation:
May 29th, 2012, 03:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by christnow
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Jeremiah 4:10 [
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Do you actually read the Bible at all, or do you just visit YouTube pages? Because simply reading the entire chapter and having a basic knowledge of the Scriptures is all that's required to understand that verse.
Jeremiah isn't quoting God there, he's echoing the attitude of the Jews of that time who thought they could persist in their unrighteous behaviour and God would never punish them for it. The entire rest of the chapter is a refutation of that. There is no Scripture where God promises peace to a people who are being wilfully disobedient.
Quote:
2 Samuel 24:1,
Again the anger of Jehovah burned against Israel and he incited David against them saying "Go and number Israel and Judah".
And this does nothing to make your weird point as God never commanded David to do so. He simply allowed David to be tempted and did nothing to help David resist that temptation:
Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel. - 1 Chronicles 21:1
Though I think I get how you're misreading the passage. It's David saying "Go and number Isreal and Judah", not God as is clear in the more detailed account in 1 Chronicles 21:1-17. The grammar of 2 Samuel 24:1 is also clearer in other translations:
Now again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and it incited David against them to say, “ Go, number Israel and Judah.” (NASB)
The Lord’s anger burned against Israel again, and He stirred up David against them to say: “Go, count the people of Israel and Judah.” (HCSB)
"When the lights go out all over the world, when history seems headed only into a dead end and total disaster, God brings forth light. He changes the direction of history and regenerates men and redirects events and institutions to fulfill His purposes."
Thank you for following me. All you need to do, is know that God hardens hearts & that obeying him doesn't guarantee that you wont be destroyed from him for it. All of Christianity mostly rejects this vital point because God has hardened their hearts.
Ah, so He hardens hearts which results in rebellion against Him?
Since we know rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, would you not say that one would now be in the Devils camp? How can God reverse what He decrees? When He hardens a heart He hands him over without repentance; without remedy that even He cannot reverse. Why would a righteous God arbitrarily do such a thing?
My bible reads: "God is the rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." Where do you place that in your thinking?
Do you actually read the Bible at all, or do you just visit YouTube pages? Because simply reading the entire chapter and having a basic knowledge of the Scriptures is all that's required to understand that verse.
Jeremiah isn't quoting God there, he's echoing the attitude of the Jews of that time who thought they could persist in their unrighteous behaviour and God would never punish them for it. The entire rest of the chapter is a refutation of that. There is no Scripture where God promises peace to a people who are being wilfully disobedient.
And this does nothing to make your weird point as God never commanded David to do so. He simply allowed David to be tempted and did nothing to help David resist that temptation:
Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel. - 1 Chronicles 21:1
Though I think I get how you're misreading the passage. It's David saying "Go and number Isreal and Judah", not God as is clear in the more detailed account in 1 Chronicles 21:1-17. The grammar of 2 Samuel 24:1 is also clearer in other translations:
Now again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and it incited David against them to say, “ Go, number Israel and Judah.” (NASB)
The Lord’s anger burned against Israel again, and He stirred up David against them to say: “Go, count the people of Israel and Judah.” (HCSB)
So that is what it sounds like when a human speaks as he is hardened by God. Interesting. Like Pharaoh, you will never accept that God has hardened your heart. Interesting.
Like 2 Thessalonians 2:11 states, God has hardened you into never accepting that he hardens.
2 Thessalonians 2:11,
FOR THIS REASON GOD SENDS THEM A POWERFUL DELUSION SO THAT THEY WILL BELIEVE THE LIE.
I await to see the fulfillment of 2 Thes 2:11 in your very response. I never thought that I would get such great examples of my point in just one thread. You have served this thread very well. Interesting.
Ah, so He hardens hearts which results in rebellion against Him?
Since we know rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, would you not say that one would now be in the Devils camp? How can God reverse what He decrees? When He hardens a heart He hands him over without repentance; without remedy that even He cannot reverse. Why would a righteous God arbitrarily do such a thing?
My bible reads: "God is the rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." Where do you place that in your thinking?
He is arbitrary, as Romans 9:17-20 states, his "rewarding" is just as arbitrary as you have learned from Rom 9:17-20. Since he hardens people, he obviously is not 100% good with 0% evil. He is a complex character.
Thank you for following me. All you need to do, is know that God hardens hearts & that obeying him doesn't guarantee that you wont be destroyed from him for it. All of Christianity mostly rejects this vital point because God has hardened their hearts.
Unless you believe that God is a liar, then your wrong because a christian who has obeyed God by receiving Christ has already passed from death to life, and will not be destroyed.
Unless you believe that God is a liar, then your wrong because a christian who has obeyed God by receiving Christ has already passed from death to life, and will not be destroyed.
So, either God is a liar or you are.
Guess which one i believe.
Romans 9:17-20 flatly states that God hardens people. Not that I say it, not that you don't want to say it - none of that matters: but that Romans 9:17-20 flatly states it.
It doesn't need your approval for it to be true, even though you do not believe what the bible says at Romans 9:17-20, it only shows that your own heart has been hardened by God.
Romans 9:17-20 flatly states that God hardens people. Not that I say it, not that you don't want to say it - none of that matters: but that Romans 9:17-20 flatly states it.
It doesn't need your approval for it to be true, even though you do not believe what the bible says at Romans 9:17-20, it only shows that your own heart has been hardened by God.
A heart hardened by God means He gives you over to a seared conscience because you keep hardening your own making it clear that you refuse Him.
A heart hardened by God means He gives you over to a seared conscience because you keep hardening your own making it clear that you refuse Him.
Not that He manipulates you.
Make up whatever lie you want, God put it into your heart so that you would not believe that "God hardens hearts" means exactly what we all know it means off of first read - that God hardens hearts.
It means what we don't want it to mean. If you convinced a child to go to the store and get some candy, and then when the child came back with the candy you punished him - what would the first question be from someone who heard about that? It would be "but how can you blame the child?" God hardens, means God hardens. That's why Romans 9:17-20 has the question "Then how can God still find fault?" That question states, as clear as possible, that "God hardens" means exactly what we don't desire for it to mean.
Make up whatever lie you want, God put it into your heart so that you would not believe that "God hardens hearts" means exactly what we all know it means off of first read - that God hardens hearts.
It means what we don't want it to mean. If you convinced a child to go to the store and get some candy, and then when the child came back with the candy you punished him - what would the first question be from someone who heard about that? It would be "but how can you blame the child?" God hardens, means God hardens. That's why Romans 9:17-20 has the question "Then how can God still find fault?" That question states, as clear as possible, that "God hardens" means exactly what we don't desire for it to mean.
God says He gives people over to their own depravity.
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