[zippy2006]

Originally Posted by HisServant

I look at it the other way.. if you think very highly of Mary, than you think very lowly of God.

When you think of it, at its core, the veneration of Mary degrades the Holiness of God.

Wait until you get past the infancy narratives to the Passion, or the washing of the feet, or the parts where Jesus invites the unclean to His table. I don't think you are going to much like Christianity if that is your understanding of "Holiness." In fact, if that's what you think it is, then the Christian God is not "Holy" at all, though Allah might have what you're after.

[HisServant]

Originally Posted by zippy2006

Wait until you get past the infancy narratives to the Passion, or the washing of the feet, or the parts where Jesus invites the unclean to His table. I don't think you are going to much like Christianity if that is your understanding of "Holiness." In fact, if that's what you think it is, then the Christian God is not "Holy" at all, though Allah might have what you're after.

Nope.. God is a jealous god.. and he is the only person worthy of our prayers and devotion.

Mary was born with sin and sinned in her life (Jesus was only her firstborn), yet God worked a miracle and used her as a willing vessel to create his perfect son. Got is so amazing and is not bound to our theology and notion of sin.

To devote yourself to anyone else is to deny him as the creator and object of our faith.

In the end, God does NOT share... period.

[kmoney]

Originally Posted by zippy2006

Protestants don't go to a priest on a regular basis? In the vast majority of Protestantism, there are no priests! More than that, they don't believe that any man even has power to forgive sins. So I guess you could say they "Don't go to a priest on a regular basis for the forgiveness of sins."

Yes, exactly, I can say that.

Some do, but very few on TOL, which was no doubt Trad's intended audience.

If Trad was targeting TOLers he wasn't very clear about that in his thread title, nor in his actual posts. It seems to me he is targeting all of Protestantism. And most of Protestantism does what I said.

They reject enormous means of salvation, yes. Many TOLers could be said to reject all of them. Among the things from Christ's own mouth are water baptism, Eucharist (no, I don't think you can read the Last Supper narratives, John 6, and Jewish history and come to the conclusion that Jesus wanted us to think about him over dinner, neither did Luther or any of the Early Christians), the priesthood and the forgiveness of sins, even the fact that we continue to sin (Jn 13:10).

Again, I don't think Trad was restricting this to TOLers. You seem to be focusing on the MADers of TOL who this might be more true of because of their separation of Israel and Jesus's teachings from the Body of Christ. But even with them I wouldn't say they are rejecting means of salvation. Saying it like that makes it seem like they are openly rebelling against some things that God has instituted as a way for salvation. They don't do that. It is just a different understanding of things.

And to address the Eucharist specifically, some Protestants reject actual presence in the food and drink, but I don't think their different understanding of it means they are rejecting a means of salvation. Protestants have Communion in remembrance of Christ just like he and Paul said to do.

Is it not Mary's very closeness to Christ that gives her her status in orthodox Christianity?

What do you mean by "status"?

I'm not sure I would be that strong, but it generally holds on TOL. If you despise those who ask Christ's mother for help and do not think very highly of Mary then you do not think very highly of Christ.

Some Protestants might despise Catholics, some don't.
What do you mean by "think very highly" of Mary? Just because I reject that I need to pray to her for salvation doesn't mean that I don't think highly of her.

[Traditio]

Originally Posted by kmoney

If Trad was targeting TOLers he wasn't very clear about that in his thread title, nor in his actual posts. It seems to me he is targeting all of Protestantism. And most of Protestantism does what I said.

I was targeting pretty much all Protestants. That said, I do admit that I was unclear in the thread title; what I was looking for primarily was the opinion of other Catholics about whether or not it is likely that many Protestants will be saved.

I think it's almost impossible.

Again, I don't think Trad was restricting this to TOLers.

I was not.

And to address the Eucharist specifically, some Protestants reject actual presence in the food and drink, but I don't think their different understanding of it means they are rejecting a means of salvation. Protestants have Communion in remembrance of Christ just like he and Paul said to do.

Note that Catholics don't believe that Christ is "in" the food and drink. Rather, the food and the drink cease to exist. Only the accidents of bread and wine remain.

What becomes really and truly present at mass is the actual resurrected body and blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ Our Lord.

The difference, Kmo, is between Christ actually being there with you at church and Christ being absent.

[kmoney]

Originally Posted by Traditio

But doesn't Christ Himself say that few will be saved?

"Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. [14] How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it" (Matthew 7:13-14).

And this shouldn't surprise us. The end which we are trying to reach (eternal beatitude with God) is a supernatural end. It's an end which exceeds the capacity of our human nature. There are many things which men can do, but many don't do, because of the great difficulty of doing it.

Not many men build rockets. It's hard. It requires very advanced knowledge.

But men can do it according to their own power; it's within the power of our nature as human beings.

To be saved is not. It is impossible for man, according to his own efforts, to be saved and to attain the beatific vision. It is possible only through the grace of God.

But consider how arduous a task it is to build a rocket. You have to have the advanced knowledge. You have to be able to procure all the materials. You must design the rocket. You must find the workers actually to make the rocket.

And few are those who can do it. But they can do it!

OK, sure. No one is saying that men attains salvation on their own.

How much more arduous, then, must attaining salvation be? If even humanity in all its perfection cannot attain it, must it not be a task for which only a few are suited, even with the help of grace?

And yet Jesus said this: Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Do you feel like your burden is light?

You point out that many Protestants profess faith in Jesus Christ. I answer you with St. Thomas Aquinas:

"Now just as human reason and will, in practical matters, may be made manifest by speech, so may they be made known by deeds: since seemingly a man chooses as good that which he carries into execution" (ST I-II, q. 97, a. 3, response).

Sure, Protestants profess with their mouths that Jesus is Lord. But they also profess with their deeds that Jesus is not Lord. With every mortal sin, we say to God through our deeds: "You are not my Lord. You have no right to give me laws. I don't want you in my life now or ever."

Sure, sin continues. Very few deny that. But I don't see how that is relevant. There is forgiveness.

But think: to rise from the death of original sin to the new life of Christ is not something which we can attain through our own efforts. Only the grace of God, freely given, can lift us up to friendship with God and fellowship with His Church through the sacrament of baptism.

And many/most Protestants have baptism.

Once baptised, if you say to God, through your deeds, to depart from you forever...do you think that it is within your power to restore yourself to His friendship? Do you think that it is within the power of human nature to bring itself from death to life?

No. Only the grace of God, freely given, can restore you to life and bring you back to His friendship, and this ordinarily is done in the Sacrament of Penance. And how hard it is to make a good confession! To do that, you must 1. confess all of your sins, both in kind and number, 2. actually be sorry for your sins and 3. firmly intend to amend your life.

Jesus told us how to pray. In that prayer there is forgiveness. You are adding burdens that Christ didn't give you. But of course no one denies that you have to be genuinely contrite.

St. Teresa says that most Christians are damned because their confessions are bad.

Why?

And do you think that you can be granted the grace to be sorry for your sins, to amend your life and to make a good confession if you do not have the Mother of God, St. Joseph, and all of the angels and saints imploring God to grant you those graces?

No.

Yes. I would still like to see some scripture that supports putting praying to Mary as a necessary condition of salvation.

It is hard enough even for a Catholic to be saved. For Protestants? I see no way out of it. It's almost impossible.

I'm sorry you feel that way and obviously disagree. You seem to have an unhealthy obsession with your sins. That isn't say we should deny that we sin. Of course not. We need to recognize and repent from them. We need to have a humble spirit about it. But at the same time, you seem to be obsessed in a way that stops you from having any peace, any freedom.

I mentioned this earlier but will quote a larger passage:

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Mat 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
Mat 7:10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?


When I read your posts I don't get the picture of a good Father who gives good gifts to his children when they ask. And I think you are encumbering yourself with things that Jesus didn't put on you. To the point that you are denying salvation of Protestants, which is what really gets me agitated.

[kmoney]

Originally Posted by Traditio

I was targeting pretty much all Protestants. That said, I do admit that I was unclear in the thread title; what I was looking for primarily was the opinion of other Catholics about whether or not it is likely that many Protestants will be saved.

I think it's almost impossible.



I was not.

Thanks for clarifying. And I would also like to see the view of other Catholics. Are they willing to say the vast majority of Protestants are going to hell?

Note that Catholics don't believe that Christ is "in" the food and drink. Rather, the food and the drink cease to exist. Only the accidents of bread and wine remain.

What becomes really and truly present at mass is the actual resurrected body and blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ Our Lord.

The difference, Kmo, is between Christ actually being there with you at church and Christ being absent.

I understand the difference. But I don't see the difference causing Protestants going to hell.

[Traditio]

Originally Posted by kmoney

And yet Jesus said this: Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

I don't deny this. If you take up the yoke of Christ and truly live out the Catholic life as you ought, there is no easier yoke. There is no lighter burden. There is no greater refreshment for your soul.

Because that is the road of virtue. That is the road of charity.

And that alone is the real path to freedom.

Sin burdens us. Vices chain us down. Virtue breaks those chains. Grace lifts off those burdens.

Do you feel like your burden is light?

No, but not because of Christ's yoke. I am chained down by vices.

Sure, sin continues. Very few deny that. But I don't see how that is relevant. There is forgiveness.

But few, if any Protestants, have recourse to it! Christ waits for us in the confessional so that He can forgive us. But Protestants don't meet him there. Many Catholics don't go, and even among those who do, often enough, the confessions are bad. Often, a firm purpose of amendment is lacking. Contrition is lacking. All of their sins are not confessed in kind and number.

And many/most Protestants have baptism.

Yes, many/most Protestants have baptism. They are made a dwelling place for the Holy Ghost. They are infused with charity when they are baptised. And when they commit a mortal sin, they promptly banish the Holy Ghost and His charity.

Jesus told us how to pray. In that prayer there is forgiveness.

For venial sins. God forgives everything if only you remain His friend. But when you commit a mortal sin, you break your friendship with God. Prayer doesn't cut it. Extraordinary means are required.

Yes. I would still like to see some scripture that supports putting praying to Mary as a necessary condition of salvation.

I've already addressed this. There is no scripture which explicitly asserts this. However, the fathers and doctors of the Church by and large agree on this point; their opinion is not to be shrugged off.

[Traditio]

Originally Posted by kmoney

Thanks for clarifying. And I would also like to see the view of other Catholics. Are they willing to say the vast majority of Protestants are going to hell?

Again, to be perfectly clear, I am unwilling to say that the vast majority of Protestants are going to Hell. To say this would be for me to place limits on God's power. I have no idea who is in Hell, who is going to Hell, etc. Christ spoke pretty strongly about the fate of Judas, but then, who knows?

I don't want to deny that God could, in principle, save all Protestants.

What I am going to say is this: Protestants reject all of the ordinary means of salvation. Barring extraordinary graces and means on the part of God, it seems overwhelmingly likely that most, if not all, Protestants are going to Hell.

On the other hand:

As grim as that seems, it also seems evident that God will reward any who sincerely seek after Him. If you pray often (every day) for God to show you the truth and grant you all of the necessary graces for your salvation, and if you strive after virtue with all your might, I very seriously doubt that God would turn you away.

Sooner or later, I am sure, He'll lead you to where you* need to be.



*This is a general "you" that encompasses pretty much everyone, myself included. Perhaps I should have used the term "one" instead of "you."

[kmoney]

Originally Posted by Traditio

I don't deny this. If you take up the yoke of Christ and truly live out the Catholic life as you ought, there is no easier yoke. There is no lighter burden. There is no greater refreshment for your soul.

Because that is the road of virtue. That is the road of charity.

And that alone is the real path to freedom.

Sin burdens us. Vices chain us down. Virtue breaks those chains. Grace lifts off those burdens.

No, but not because of Christ's yoke. I am chained down by vices.

Then I think you need to read a little more of Paul.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

You shouldn't be in bondage anymore.

But few, if any Protestants, have recourse to it! Christ waits for us in the confessional so that He can forgive us. But Protestants don't meet him there. Many Catholics don't go, and even among those who do, often enough, the confessions are bad. Often, a firm purpose of amendment is lacking. Contrition is lacking. All of their sins are not confessed in kind and number.

Have no recourse to it? I disagree. We have the prayer Jesus gave us. And he is our advocate.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Protestants certainly have recourse.

Yes, many/most Protestants have baptism. They are made a dwelling place for the Holy Ghost. They are infused with charity when they are baptised. And when they commit a mortal sin, they promptly banish the Holy Ghost and His charity.

Where in scripture does it say the Holy Ghost is banished from our lives when we sin? And regardless, as I said, there is forgiveness. We obviously disagree on how that forgiveness is granted though. We may be at a standstill.

For venial sins. God forgives everything if only you remain His friend. But when you commit a mortal sin, you break your friendship with God. Prayer doesn't cut it. Extraordinary means are required.

Christ doesn't seem to differentiate.

I've already addressed this. There is no scripture which explicitly asserts this. However, the fathers and doctors of the Church by and large agree on this point; their opinion is not to be shrugged off.

Perhaps it shouldn't be shrugged off but to me this isn't just an issue that scripture is silent about and that you are putting something there. In my view it is something that actually goes against what scripture says about us, Jesus, and our relationship with him and the Father.

[kmoney]

Originally Posted by Traditio

Again, to be perfectly clear, I am unwilling to say that the vast majority of Protestants are going to Hell. To say this would be for me to place limits on God's power. I have no idea who is in Hell, who is going to Hell, etc. Christ spoke pretty strongly about the fate of Judas, but then, who knows?

I don't want to deny that God could, in principle, save all Protestants.

What I am going to say is this: Protestants reject all of the ordinary means of salvation. Barring extraordinary graces and means on the part of God, it seems overwhelmingly likely that most, if not all, Protestants are going to Hell.

On the other hand:

As grim as that seems, it also seems evident that God will reward any who sincerely seek after Him. If you pray often (every day) for God to show you the truth and grant you all of the necessary graces for your salvation, and if you strive after virtue with all your might, I very seriously doubt that God would turn you away.

Sooner or later, I am sure, He'll lead you to where you* need to be.

*This is a general "you" that encompasses pretty much everyone, myself included. Perhaps I should have used the term "one" instead of "you."

I still disagree with the first part where you say Protestants reject the means of salvation but I think the section I put in bold is progress and a more reasonable position. Naturally, you will think Catholicism is the right and best way, a superior way, but God will honor a seeker. Though, I reject that Protestants have to be relegated to merely a "seeker".

[csuguy]

Originally Posted by Traditio

And the Protestants spurn pretty much every means to salvation which God has given to us.

There is only one means to salvation: Christ. And Protestants haven't spurned him.

[zippy2006]

The Church is the Ark sent by God. Can a Protestant, with God's help, tread water for 6 months? Maybe they can. Personally, I'd chance the Tiber.

I think it is very important Protestants come into the Church. And this is an objective matter of Christ's Church and the sacraments, etc. I think it is significantly less imperative that the Orthodox convert, since they retain many of the graces that Christ has bestowed on us.

Originally Posted by kmoney

Sure, sin continues. Very few deny that. But I don't see how that is relevant. There is forgiveness.

On who's terms? You can't take the forgiveness and skip the means given.

Originally Posted by kmoney

Yes, exactly, I can say that.

If Trad was targeting TOLers he wasn't very clear about that in his thread title, nor in his actual posts. It seems to me he is targeting all of Protestantism. And most of Protestantism does what I said.

I understand Trad's intent now. The thing is, I will not speak on the topic in front of Protestants. It is, to my mind, more of a private discussion between Catholics, and I think care should be taken when speaking on such a delicate subject to Protestants. Heck I think it can be a dangerous topic in privacy with Catholics. That may be unsatisfactory to you. If so, sorry.

Again, I don't think Trad was restricting this to TOLers. You seem to be focusing on the MADers of TOL who this might be more true of because of their separation of Israel and Jesus's teachings from the Body of Christ. But even with them I wouldn't say they are rejecting means of salvation. Saying it like that makes it seem like they are openly rebelling against some things that God has instituted as a way for salvation. They don't do that. It is just a different understanding of things.

I think they do rebel in various ways, mainly through pride. For example:

And to address the Eucharist specifically, some Protestants reject actual presence in the food and drink, but I don't think their different understanding of it means they are rejecting a means of salvation. Protestants have Communion in remembrance of Christ just like he and Paul said to do.

Like my video shows, converts to Catholicism often constitute studied Protestants. Evidence for the Eucharist is staggering. Staggering. As soon as that evidence is presented to the Protestant and they refuse to look at it they are culpable. In many ways, the Protestant is the speeder who is going to plead that they did not know the speed limit. As a revert to Catholicism who was initially pushed toward conversion by Protestants, I can say that I've looked at the arguments and they are no good. If you like, pm me and we can look at any of these issues such as the Eucharist and see which side has the better case.

What do you mean by "status"?

Her beloved, venerable, and efficacious status.

Some Protestants might despise Catholics, some don't.

True, and like I said, I hold little against the Orthodox. Less against the Lutherans than the Calvinists (okay, much less ). There are many shades of grey, but all are measured against the One Light which casts them.

What do you mean by "think very highly" of Mary? Just because I reject that I need to pray to her for salvation doesn't mean that I don't think highly of her.

Certainly. These generalizations are problematic. In my last, as you noted, I was speaking to hostile TOL Protestantism (which unfortunately is more representative of American Protestantism than some might think).

[Cruciform]

Originally Posted by Traditio

Again, to be perfectly clear, I am unwilling to say that the vast majority of Protestants are going to Hell. To say this would be for me to place limits on God's power. I have no idea who is in Hell, who is going to Hell, etc...

I agree with Traditio here, that we simply don't know the eternal destinies of others. This is not knowledge to which God has made us privy (Ha! I sound like Dickens!) Consider the Church's teaching in this area...

COMPENDIUM OF THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH:

162 Where does the one Church of Christ subsist? The one Church of Christ, as a society constituted and organized in the world, subsists (subsisit in) the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and the bishops in communion with him. Only through this Church can one obtain the fullness of means of salvation since the Lord has entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone whose head is Peter.

163 How are non-Catholic Christians to be considered? In the churches and ecclesial communities which are separated from full communion with the Catholic Church, many elements of sanctification and truth can be found. All of these blessings come from Christ and lead to Catholic unity. Members of these churches and communities are incorporated into Christ by Baptism and so we recognize them as brothers...

168 Who belongs to the Catholic Church? All human beings in various ways belong to or are ordered to the Catholic unity of the people of God. Fully incorporated into the Catholic Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, are joined to the Church by the bonds of the profession of faith [summarized in the Nicene Creed], the sacraments, ecclesiastical government and communion. The baptized who do not enjoy full Catholic unity are in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church...

171 What is the meaning of the affirmation "Outside the Church there is no salvation"? This means that all salvation comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church which is his body. Hence they cannot be saved who, knowing the Church as founded by Christ and necessary for salvation, would refuse to enter her or remain in her. At the same time, thanks to Christ and to his Church, those who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ and his Church but sincerely seek God and, moved by grace, try to do his will as it is known through the dictates of conscience can attain eternal salvation.

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

[Traditio]

Originally Posted by Cruciform

I agree with Traditio here, that we simply don't know the eternal destinies of others. This is not knowledge to which God has made us privy (Ha! I sound like Dickens!) Consider the Church's teaching in this area...

I agree with all of those things.

That said, I was asking about likelihoods. Barring extraordinary graces and means used by God at the hour of death, do you think it's likely that very many Protestants will go to Heaven?

Why or why not?

this OP is imply the mirror image of the arrogance of hot protestants who claim the pope is the antichrist. Both sets, fundamentalist protestants and fundamentalist catholics, are as bigoted as each other