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Many preachers try to tell the people or teach that the moment a person dies they go straight to heaven or turn into spirit beings and continue as some form or another. So what does the Scripture mean when it says the dead go to the grave and stay there till the resurrection. If they are already in heaven, why do they need to be resurrected by Christ at his Second Coming? So what does the Bible say..
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence. Psalms 115: 17
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Psalms 146:4
For that which befalleth the sons of men, befalleth beasts; ... as the one dieth, so dieth the other. Ecclesiastes 3:19.
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything. Ecclesiastes 9:5
Now the resurrection of the dead by Christ is a clear belief taught in the Bible...
The Resurrection of the Dead
1 Corinthians 15
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. 29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,
And sripture shows us that Christ is coming to resurrect and give the reward of eternal life to those saints who died and those still alive and take them with him to heaven..
Matthew 16:27 - For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Matthew 5:12 - Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Matthew 6:1 - Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
Luke 6:23 - Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
Revelation 22:12 - And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
But if a man is already in heaven, then what need does he have for Christ and his reward, if he is already there and immortal?
Slogan/motto:
II Timothy 2:15, Psalms 6:5, I John 3:1-2, Romans 5:1 I John 4:18, I Timothy 2:4-5, II Corinthians 9:8,11, III John 2
Reputation:
June 9th, 2012, 08:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobie
Many preachers try to tell the people or teach that the moment a person dies they go straight to heaven or turn into spirit beings and continue as some form or another. So what does the Scripture mean when it says the dead go to the grave and stay there till the resurrection. If they are already in heaven, why do they need to be resurrected by Christ at his Second Coming? So what does the Bible say..
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence. Psalms 115: 17
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Psalms 146:4
For that which befalleth the sons of men, befalleth beasts; ... as the one dieth, so dieth the other. Ecclesiastes 3:19.
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything. Ecclesiastes 9:5
Now the resurrection of the dead by Christ is a clear belief taught in the Bible...
The Resurrection of the Dead
1 Corinthians 15
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. 29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,
And sripture shows us that Christ is coming to resurrect and give the reward of eternal life to those saints who died and those still alive and take them with him to heaven..
Matthew 16:27 - For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Matthew 5:12 - Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Matthew 6:1 - Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
Luke 6:23 - Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
Revelation 22:12 - And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
But if a man is already in heaven, then what need does he have for Christ and his reward, if he is already there and immortal?
Hobie,
Wow.
Thank you for showing up.
I am glad to see someone else who has paid close enough attention to the scriptures to realize what you stated.
Death is a continuing state. The only release from death is to be raised from the dead.
Jesus Christ died for us, that is why God had to raise him from the dead for him to be alive again.
The opponents of scripture will try to point out that God is God of the living not the dead, but they will not have looked at the context to realize the subject of those words are the resurrection.
They will not realize that the plain truth of the verses you presented are actually true.
I am very glad to see you post.
Maybe it will keep some people from going to seances to "contact the dead" or to pray to corpses.
oatmeal
"And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42
"For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" Psalm 6:5
Slogan/motto:
II Timothy 2:15, Psalms 6:5, I John 3:1-2, Romans 5:1 I John 4:18, I Timothy 2:4-5, II Corinthians 9:8,11, III John 2
Reputation:
June 9th, 2012, 08:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobie
Many preachers try to tell the people or teach that the moment a person dies they go straight to heaven or turn into spirit beings and continue as some form or another. So what does the Scripture mean when it says the dead go to the grave and stay there till the resurrection. If they are already in heaven, why do they need to be resurrected by Christ at his Second Coming? So what does the Bible say..
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence. Psalms 115: 17
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Psalms 146:4
For that which befalleth the sons of men, befalleth beasts; ... as the one dieth, so dieth the other. Ecclesiastes 3:19.
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything. Ecclesiastes 9:5
Now the resurrection of the dead by Christ is a clear belief taught in the Bible...
The Resurrection of the Dead
1 Corinthians 15
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. 29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,
And sripture shows us that Christ is coming to resurrect and give the reward of eternal life to those saints who died and those still alive and take them with him to heaven..
Matthew 16:27 - For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Matthew 5:12 - Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Matthew 6:1 - Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
Luke 6:23 - Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
Revelation 22:12 - And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
But if a man is already in heaven, then what need does he have for Christ and his reward, if he is already there and immortal?
They will also try to manipulate II Corinthians 5:6 to fit their obsession with death.
Not actually reading what it says, and neglecting the context which is the return of Christ for us, I Thessalonians 4:13-18, and our the eternal weight of glory which awaits us in heaven. I Corinthians 4:17-18
They will assume many things about other scriptures that the scriptures do not teach. They simply do not read scripture.
Have fun!
Vito
"And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42
"For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" Psalm 6:5
Slogan/motto:
Your faith is what you believe in and by their fruit you shall know them
Reputation:
June 9th, 2012, 08:39 AM
To begin with we are all born into the valley of death. Death and sin reign on earth OVER those who have not through the Holy Spirit been resurrected unto eternal life.
Adam is the spirit of man, and as the Scriptures say, "in Adam all men must die".
The physical body of man is certainly not immortal, so what the question of the original post comes down to is what happens to the spirit-soul of man at the time of the physical death of the body?
The answer is found in the Scriptures were in the Old Testament it says when a person dies the spirit goes back to God who gave it, and in the New Testament where James says the body without the spirit is dead.
The same as Peter said “we have a more sure word of prophecy,” when it comes to death and the resurrection, so do I have a more sure word of prophecy having already lived through being declared dead from a car accident. However, when everybody else was looking at my dead body, I was already attending the resurrection of the dead as recorded in the Book of Revelation. (without ever first reading that passage in Scripture)
Upon the end of life as we know it, all will be resurrected from their bodies as their spirit and soul of man will stand "as them" before God in judgment for all that has been thought, said, and done while their spirit-soul existed in the human body on earth.
This is the 2nd resurrection that all will obtain at the end of their lives other than those who obtained the 1st resurrection that did so in this life by going from death unto life through Jesus Christ. What that means is while they were alive on earth they no longer lived by the Spirit of Man but lived through the Holy Spirit of God's Son giving to us as the free gift of salvation.
If you want to read about what I experienced in the spiritual realm while everybody else was looking at my dead body while I was still very much alive but in a different dimension, you can read about it in the 1st chapter within the free Google preview at the following link.
Slogan/motto:
II Timothy 2:15, Psalms 6:5, I John 3:1-2, Romans 5:1 I John 4:18, I Timothy 2:4-5, II Corinthians 9:8,11, III John 2
Reputation:
June 9th, 2012, 08:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Livelystone
To begin with we are all born into the valley of death. Death and sin reign on earth OVER those who have not through the Holy Spirit been resurrected unto eternal life.
Adam is the spirit of man, and as the Scriptures say, "in Adam all men must die".
The physical body of man is certainly not immortal, so what the question of the original post comes down to is what happens to the spirit-soul of man at the time of the physical death of the body?
The answer is found in the Scriptures were in the Old Testament it says when a person dies the spirit goes back to God who gave it, and in the New Testament where James says the body without the spirit is dead.
The same as Peter said “we have a more sure word of prophecy,” when it comes to death and the resurrection, so do I have a more sure word of prophecy having already lived through being declared dead from a car accident. However, when everybody else was looking at my dead body, I was already attending the resurrection of the dead as recorded in the Book of Revelation. (without ever first reading that passage in Scripture)
Upon the end of life as we know it, all will be resurrected from their bodies as their spirit and soul of man will stand "as them" before God in judgment for all that has been thought, said, and done while their spirit-soul existed in the human body on earth.
This is the 2nd resurrection that all will obtain at the end of their lives other than those who obtained the 1st resurrection that did so in this life by going from death unto life through Jesus Christ. What that means is while they were alive on earth they no longer lived by the Spirit of Man but lived through the Holy Spirit of God's Son giving to us as the free gift of salvation.
If you want to read about what I experienced in the spiritual realm while everybody else was looking at my dead body while I was still very much alive but in a different dimension, you can read about it in the 1st chapter within the free Google preview at the following link.
Slogan/motto:
I have read a fiery gospel writ in burnished rows of steel.
Reputation:
June 9th, 2012, 08:59 AM
John 11:25, 26
Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?
"God foreknows nothing by contingency, but that he foresees, purposes, and does all things according to his immutable, eternal and infallible will. By this thunderbolt, "free will" is thrown prostrate and utterly dashed to pieces. Those therefore, who would assert "free will," must either deny this thunderbolt, or pretend not to see it, or push it from them." -Martin Luther
"The Church has surrendered her once lofty concept of God and has substituted for it one so low, so ignoble, as to be utterly unworthy of thinking, worshiping men. This she has not done deliberately, but little by little and without her knowledge; and her very unawareness only makes her situation all the more tragic." -A.W. Tozer
"He that has doctrinal knowledge and speculation only, without affection, never is engaged in the business of religion." -Jonathan Edwards
Slogan/motto:
Your faith is what you believe in and by their fruit you shall know them
Reputation:
June 9th, 2012, 09:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oatmeal
Did I ever tell you what I experienced when I got hit in the head with a baseball bat?
I saw stars. Really. I saw stars.
I was in the middle of a sunny day and I saw stars. In my head things turned dark and I saw stars.
What was the reason I saw stars?
a. I was experiencing a God thing
b. I was hit in the head with a ball bat
If you chose "b" that was the correct answer.
The reason people on hallucinogens have jumped out of 10 story windows:
a. They can really fly
b. They were hallucinating because of the drugs they were taking and thought they could fly.
Again, "b" is the correct answer.
People think that that dying is the immediate entrance to eternity.
a. They are dying and their dying brains quit thinking clearly
b. They are experiencing a "God" thing.
If you chose "c" you did not read the the available answers
"a" is the correct answer.
See Psalm 6:5 below.
Scripture tells us what death is all about.
People's experiences must be measured against the truth of God's word.
oatmeal
Your post instantly reminded me of when Jesus cautioned us about throwing our pearls (wisdom, understanding, and experience) down before swine because of what they will do with them.
If you just told the truth about yourself to everyone in the beginning of your post about how that you are a pro-abortion Christian supporting the murder of unborn babies claiming it is a justifiable act acceptable to God, all would know you for what you really are and not waste any time with you whatsoever.
It is one thing to not know the truth because we all start off in ignorance. However the sum total of you is enough to make any normal Christian's skin crawl.
Doug
Please read and support: "Modern Day Prophet" by Douglas Duncan
Slogan/motto:
II Timothy 2:15, Psalms 6:5, I John 3:1-2, Romans 5:1 I John 4:18, I Timothy 2:4-5, II Corinthians 9:8,11, III John 2
Reputation:
June 9th, 2012, 09:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Livelystone
Your post instantly reminded me of when Jesus cautioned us about throwing our pearls (wisdom, understanding, and experience) down before swine because of what they will do with them.
If you just told the truth about yourself to everyone in the beginning of your post about how that you are a pro-abortion Christian supporting the murder of unborn babies claiming it is a justifiable act acceptable to God, all would know you for what you really are and not waste any time with you whatsoever.
It is one thing to not know the truth because we all start off in ignorance. However the sum total of you is enough to make any normal Christian's skin crawl.
Doug
I see that you recognize the truth of what I taught you.
If you had not you would have at least attempted to show how I was wrong.
You did not, there fore you agree that your experiences were false, they were the result of your dying brain malfunctioning.
Your experiences do not parallel the clear teachings of scripture.
Praise the Lord, you see that.
Now, will you cease publishing your erroneous book?
If you wish to start a thread discussing the implications of Genesis 2:7, I would be happy to discuss when someone becomes a living soul with you. Although after actually reading Genesis 2:7, there would really be no need for much discussion. The only choice is, will I believe what Genesis 2:7 teaches us?
So, I am glad that I was able to help your understanding from the basis of scripture what "near death" or whatever you call it, is all about.
Remember Psalm 6:5
It will keep you out of seances/praying to corpses.
oatmeal
"And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42
"For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" Psalm 6:5
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence. Psalms 115: 17
The Latin in the vulgate reads: "non mortui laudabunt te Domine neque omnes qui descendunt in infernum." "The dead will not praise thee, O Lord, neither all who descend into Hell."
This is a true statement. The damned souls in Hell don't praise God. Hell is a place of despair, hatred and blasphemies.
Quote:
But if a man is already in heaven, then what need does he have for Christ and his reward, if he is already there and immortal?
If any man other than Christ (God-man) is in Heaven, it's because Christ suffered and died on the cross for him. But for the passion and death of Our Lord, the soul would still be immortal...but certainly not enjoying an eternal reward.
When a Man Lies He Murders
Some Part of the World
These Are the Pale Deaths Which
Men Miscall Their Lives
All this I Cannot Bear
to Witness Any Longer
Cannot the Kingdom of Salvation
Take Me Home
Slogan/motto:
Your faith is what you believe in and by their fruit you shall know them
Reputation:
June 9th, 2012, 09:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oatmeal
I see that you recognize the truth of what I taught you.
If you had not you would have at least attempted to show how I was wrong.
You did not, there fore you agree that your experiences were false, they were the result of your dying brain malfunctioning.
Your experiences do not parallel the clear teachings of scripture.
Praise the Lord, you see that.
Now, will you cease publishing your erroneous book?
If you wish to start a thread discussing the implications of Genesis 2:7, I would be happy to discuss when someone becomes a living soul with you. Although after actually reading Genesis 2:7, there would really be no need for much discussion. The only choice is, will I believe what Genesis 2:7 teaches us?
So, I am glad that I was able to help your understanding from the basis of scripture what "near death" or whatever you call it, is all about.
Remember Psalm 6:5
It will keep you out of seances/praying to corpses.
oatmeal
What does a pro-abortionists like you know about truth, life, or even love?
Absolutely nothing!
Your lack of truth and disregard for life causes you to come against anything I say the same way that satan always attacks the Word of God
There are a lot of people here who are at different places on their path of sanctification, but you are the only immoral and disgusting person that I know of here.
I hope that you have been fixed so you are not personally responsible for any more abortions and defenseless babies being flushed down toilets than what you already have been involved in. You will pay for it in the next life but meanwhile, and because of you others suffer in this life .
Doug
Please read and support: "Modern Day Prophet" by Douglas Duncan
Last edited by Livelystone; June 9th, 2012 at 11:36 AM.
Slogan/motto:
II Timothy 2:15, Psalms 6:5, I John 3:1-2, Romans 5:1 I John 4:18, I Timothy 2:4-5, II Corinthians 9:8,11, III John 2
Reputation:
June 9th, 2012, 04:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Livelystone
What does a pro-abortionists like you know about truth, life, or even love?
Absolutely nothing!
Your lack of truth and disregard for life causes you to come against anything I say the same way that satan always attacks the Word of God
There are a lot of people here who are at different places on their path of sanctification, but you are the only immoral and disgusting person that I know of here.
I hope that you have been fixed so you are not personally responsible for any more abortions and defenseless babies being flushed down toilets than what you already have been involved in. You will pay for it in the next life but meanwhile, and because of you others suffer in this life .
Doug
Doug,
It is a good thing that you survived your car accident. For scripture makes it clear that death is an enemy. I Corinthians 15:26
"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
It would have been a shame if you has succumbed to the enemy that is death.
Death is not of God, it is the Devil's doing.
Hebrews 2:14
"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;"
The Devil has the power of death.
Jesus Christ taught this as well..
John 10:10
"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."
Glad to see you did not die. Dead people are of no use to God. They must be alive to be able to serve God.
Psalm 6:5
"For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?"
It would be impossible to serve God when you don't remember God.
Thanking God is impossible when you are dead.
Why?
Because you are dead, not alive.
Well, hang in there.
You can learn a lot from me.
Vito
"And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42
"For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" Psalm 6:5
To begin with we are all born into the valley of death. Death and sin reign on earth OVER those who have not through the Holy Spirit been resurrected unto eternal life.
Adam is the spirit of man, and as the Scriptures say, "in Adam all men must die".
The physical body of man is certainly not immortal, so what the question of the original post comes down to is what happens to the spirit-soul of man at the time of the physical death of the body?
The answer is found in the Scriptures were in the Old Testament it says when a person dies the spirit goes back to God who gave it, and in the New Testament where James says the body without the spirit is dead.
The same as Peter said “we have a more sure word of prophecy,” when it comes to death and the resurrection, so do I have a more sure word of prophecy having already lived through being declared dead from a car accident. However, when everybody else was looking at my dead body, I was already attending the resurrection of the dead as recorded in the Book of Revelation. (without ever first reading that passage in Scripture)
Upon the end of life as we know it, all will be resurrected from their bodies as their spirit and soul of man will stand "as them" before God in judgment for all that has been thought, said, and done while their spirit-soul existed in the human body on earth.
This is the 2nd resurrection that all will obtain at the end of their lives other than those who obtained the 1st resurrection that did so in this life by going from death unto life through Jesus Christ. What that means is while they were alive on earth they no longer lived by the Spirit of Man but lived through the Holy Spirit of God's Son giving to us as the free gift of salvation.
If you want to read about what I experienced in the spiritual realm while everybody else was looking at my dead body while I was still very much alive but in a different dimension, you can read about it in the 1st chapter within the free Google preview at the following link.
Lets look at what scripture gives us and begin by taking a look at Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Now, to begin with, I think Christians can examine the verse and agree that Matthew 10:28 does not define what a soul is. While the NT's usage of soul/psuche (Strong's #5590) is an expanded one that covers various symbolic meanings used, however none of the NT references that I'm aware of define what a soul is. That definition is found in the OT.
Now some points on this verse in question:
1) By one saying that this verse possibly indicates that the soul is a seperate, dualistic part of a human, than the verse itself states clearly that the soul is NOT immortal; "destroy both soul and body in hell". That alone tells me that the soul, however we decide to define it, CAN be destroyed - thus it is not immortal.
2) When we look at the various definitions for psuche in the lexicon we find a miriad of possible definitions. How do you decide which one of these definitions fits?
3) When one reads the entire Matthew 10 (particularly starting at 10:16 onward) account we find that Christ is talking to the apostles in regards to their persecution as they are being sent out to spread the Gospel. He tells them how hard it is going to be (such as in 10:9 how they would be poor (no gold, nor silver, nor brass)). He tells them not to fear those that are going to persecute them, that they would be brought before governers and kings (verse 18) by those that would have them persecuted. Basically, what we find is Jesus warning them but at the same time giving them strength to do His work - that is the theme - not fearing men. He is telling them to stay strong, for though men may be able to kill them ONLY God can determine ones salvation.
4) I think the crux of some arguments are going to be "why is body and soul mentioned seperately if they are one and the same?That is a very simple answer; the NT expands the means of words used in the OT. Soul in the NT, as we've seen from the Strong's Lexicon #5590, has various meanings. But you'll notice that virtually every definition (in particularly definition #2) shows traits that are associated with the whole being of a person (their feelings, desires, affections, etc). These are parts of the whole person, not some seperate "essense" as the very last definition (2c) would try to squeeze in. As such, the verse simply means [paraphrase] "do not be afraid of those that can kill you, if you are going to be afraid of anyone be afraid of God, for it is He that can destroy you utterly as it is He that decides your salvation".
I think once we look at the entire body of texts the overwhelming conclusion of what a soul is easily found. According to rules of hermeneutics; we must harmonize less-clear verses with those that are more clear. As such, Gen 2:7 is the clearer verse and it tells us exactly what a soul is.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
When God united His breath, or spirit with man, man became a living soul. A living soul is composed of body and spirit.
When one dies, their spirit goes back to God who gave it, at which point, one is no longer a living soul. This is why humanity is not immortal, and must receive the same from God as a gift of salvation.
The Bible tells us what a soul is (which we saw in Gen 2:7) and that only God has immortality at this point (1 Timothy 1:17 & 1 Timothy 6:15-16). Let's see those verses quickly:
1 Timothy 6:15-16 - Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
1 Timothy 1:17 - Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
To arrive at the conclusion that souls are somehow immortal would take a lot of scriptural proof, and as far as I know, such scriptures simply do not exist.
Now there are many verses in Psalms where David is talking about his enemies seeking him to destroy his soul.
Psalms 40:14 - Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.
Psalms 35:4 - Let them be confounded and put to shame that seek after my soul: let them be turned back and brought to confusion that devise my hurt.
When we look to the rules of hermeneutics we see that we must interpret the means of obscure passages with those that are clearer. As such, we have a verse that tells what a soul is [Gen 2:7], that only God has immortality [specifically 1 Tim 6:16], that man can in fact destroy a human soul (for that is what David was talking about)[Psalms 40:14 specifically]; in light of this it would seem the clearest interpretation that can be derived is that the Bible teaches body/soul/spirit wholism verses body/soul dualism.
To add a verse to further support the Gen 2:7 verse (for we should never rely on just one verse for any biblical truth) that man is a soul instead of man having a soul;
1 Corinthians 15:45 - And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
This verse supports Gen 2:7 for 1) it is talking about the same event, the creation of man, and 2) it reaffirms that man was made a living soul - not man was given a living soul.
God will destroy both body and soul in hell. The soul is not immortal.
Now lets address the Matt 10:28 verse again for a small point that might have been overlooked: Matt 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
This marks a definite separation of body from 'soul.'
To say that the soul does not die or drifts off somewhere when a person dies we'd have to eliminate Gen 2:7 and 1 Corinthians 15:45 from the Bible, which of course we cannot do. Or is there another alternative that will harmonize all of these verses? Yes there is, and the key to that is understanding the definitions of the Greek word psuche, here are the definitions from Strong:
1) breath
a) the breath of life
1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
a) of animals
b) of men
b) life
c) that in which there is life
1) a living being, a living soul
2) the soul
a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)
Now, I must agree with definition 2a due to its agreement in harmonizing all the scriptures in play. I cannot agree with definitions 2b or 2c for those are what we are trying to prove in the first place. Also, using those definitions puts disharmony between the verses in question. You see, as I tried to explain earlier, what Christ was telling the apostles was simple; "don't fear those that can kill you, for they can't take away your reward of salvation no matter what they do, they cannot kill (def 2a) your desires, your affections i.e. what is in your heart; but God can utterly destroy you". The verse was not intended to define what a soul is, as such we must lend more weight to those verses that state outright what a soul is; the word psuche was used in this verse to denote those intangible parts of a human that cannot be harmed by man - the seat of the emotions and intellect.
Now lets look at some verse in the Old Testament:
Eccl 12:5..….. because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: 6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
When the dust returns to the earth, and the spirit back to God who gave it, there is no longer a living soul. If the soul were immortal, then the scriptures would not speak of living, or dying souls. Of course a soul would be living if souls were immortal, and of course they would never be spoken of as dying if they were immortal either. So why do the scriptures apply both to the soul?
Ps 6:2 Have mercy upon me, O LORD; for I am weak: O LORD, heal me; for my bones are vexed. 3 My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O LORD, how long? 4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. 5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
In the above, David seeks to have himself, that is his soul delivered from death, because in the grave there is no remembrance of God, and he cannot give God thanks from the grave. How is this possible if the soul is immortal? If the soul were alive and in heaven with God surely it would be praising Him. Or if it were in hell, surely it would be cursing Him.
Ps 7:1 O LORD my God, in thee do I put my trust: save me from all them that persecute me, and deliver me: 2 Lest he tear my soul like a lion, rending it in pieces, while there is none to deliver. 3 O LORD my God, if I have done this; if there be iniquity in my hands; 4 If I have rewarded evil unto him that was at peace with me; (yea, I have delivered him that without cause is mine enemy 5 Let the enemy persecute my soul, and take it; yea, let him tread down my life upon the earth, and lay mine honour in the dust. Selah.
Again what sense do the above verses make if a soul is not a living person, rather than some floating entity that lives apart from the body? Can a soul be torn to pieces? Will it end when ones life does? Yes it will.
Ps 30:2 O LORD my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me. 3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.
How can a soul go to the grave? If it is immortal and goes to heaven or hell at death it should not be spoken of as dying and going to the grave. If on the other hand, it is a living being, then it could be said that ones soul goes to the grave when they die, it is it’s end. When life ends, it ends.
Ps 33:18 Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy; 19 To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine. 20 Our soul waiteth for the LORD: he is our help and our shield. 21 For our heart shall rejoice in him, because we have trusted in his holy name. 22 Let thy mercy, O LORD, be upon us, according as we hope in thee.
If our souls must be delivered from death, then they are not immortal. They are like us, they are us, when we are alive. When we are raised from the dead and given everlasting life, we will again be living souls.
Ps 40:13 Be pleased, O LORD, to deliver me: O LORD, make haste to help me. 14 Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.
Who can destroy a soul if it is immortal? It is not. When life ends, it ends, because when one is alive, they are a living soul.
Ps 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish. 13 This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah. 14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. 15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.
Again the soul being associated with life, being redeemed from the grave. If it were immortal, this would not be so.
Ps 56:12 Thy vows are upon me, O God: I will render praises unto thee. 13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death:wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?
Again, when God delivers the soul from death, one can walk in the light of the living. Makes no sense if the soul is immortal.
Ps 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them. 50 He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence; 51 And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham:
God spared not the Egyptians souls from death, but killed them by the plagues. Their souls died, that is, they died. Obviously their souls were not immortal.
Ps 86:1 Bow down thine ear, O LORD, hear me: for I am poor and needy. 2 Preserve my soul; for I am holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee. 3 Be merciful unto me, O Lord: for I cry unto thee daily.
Who needs their soul to be preserved if it is immortal?
Ps 89:47 Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain? 48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.
Again, why would a soul go to the grave at death if it is immortal and goes to heaven or hell at death? It is because the body goes into the grave at death, it is a dead soul, it is not living, because the body and the breath or spirit from God have separated.
Ps 116:7 Return unto thy rest, O my soul; for the LORD hath dealt bountifully with thee. 8 For thou hast delivered my soul from death, mine eyes from tears, and my feet from falling. 9 I will walk before the LORD in the land of the living.
Because his soul was delivered from death, he will walk before the Lord in the land of the living, he is a living soul.
Ps 119:174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight. 175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me. 176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.
Makes no sense if the soul is immortal.
Isa 38:16 O Lord, by these things men live, and in all these things is the life of my spirit: so wilt thou recover me, and make me to live. 17 Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back. 18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. 19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.
Because he was delivered from death, his soul was delivered from the pit of corruption, that is, the grave. The living, they are the ones who praise God. The dead cannot, because they are not living souls. All such nonsense if the soul is immortal.
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
A prophecy concerning Christ. How can a soul be an offering? A sacrifice must die. If the soul is immortal, then it cannot be a sacrifice. Yet Christ poured out His soul unto death for our sins. He died the death we deserved, and when He did, He was no longer a living soul.
John 11:25, 26
Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?
When Lazuras died, could Jesus bring him out of the grave. Of course, and so shall we be at the Second Coming when Christ ressurects the saints to take them to heaven, but until then they are in the grave, just like Lazuras. Look at what scripture tells us, not mans ideas or mans traditions. If there was ever a man that deserved to go straight to heaven at the point of death it was Jesus Christ! Yet on resurrection morning Jesus said to Mary Magdela, "Touch Me not, for I am not yet ascended to My Father” John 20:17. The Son of God who is our example in all things died, was buried, and then after He was resurrected went to heaven. So it is with those who follow God..
1-Death
2-Burial
3-Resurrection
4-Then go to heaven
The Apostle Peter who was filled with the Holy Spirit spoke concerning King David; word’s very clear so it cannot be misunderstand. "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the Patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried and his sepulcher is with us to this day" "For David is NOT ascended into the heavens" Acts 2:29.
The dead Christians are not ascended into heaven praising God on the streets of gold. "The dead praise not the Lord" Psalms 115:17. According to the prophet David, "In death there is no remembrance of Thee” Psalms 6:5. In fact, the dead have no thoughts or feelings either good or bad while in the grave. "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing... Also their love and their hatred, and their envy is now perished” Ecclesiastes 9:5,6. "His breath goeth forth he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish" Psalms 146:4.
The wages of sin is eternal death, only through accepting Christ and through his power repenting of sin can one be resurrected and have eternal life when Christ comes at the Second Coming to take the saints to heaven.
I am glad to see someone else who has paid close enough attention to the scriptures to realize what you stated.
Unfortunately, you are not one of them. All OT, should tell you something...
Quote:
Originally Posted by oatmeal
The opponents of scripture will try to point out that God is God of the living not the dead, but they will not have looked at the context to realize the subject of those words are the resurrection.
Jesus said that, ding-a-ling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oatmeal
They will not realize that the plain truth of the verses you presented are actually true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oatmeal
Maybe it will keep some people from going to seances to "contact the dead" or to pray to corpses.
oatmeal
Maybe that was on his mind, but I doubt that is the reason for the OP.
Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever. Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. - Let's at least work at it?
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Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
The Latin in the vulgate reads: "non mortui laudabunt te Domine neque omnes qui descendunt in infernum." "The dead will not praise thee, O Lord, neither all who descend into Hell."
This is a true statement. The damned souls in Hell don't praise God. Hell is a place of despair, hatred and blasphemies.
If any man other than Christ (God-man) is in Heaven, it's because Christ suffered and died on the cross for him. But for the passion and death of Our Lord, the soul would still be immortal...but certainly not enjoying an eternal reward.
Lets look at this issue, and dig into what happens for both the good and the bad after death, and where the saints will go and also the ultimate destruction of the wicked in the Lake of Fire in a consuming fire, but which because of the Greek words used in translating from the Hebrew text has become confused with Greek myths. Christians picked up these false ideas and pagan beliefs of immortality of the soul, that a part of, or essence of, or spirit being of an individual, which carries with it and confers personal identity, survives the death of the body of this world and this lifetime, by natural or supernatural means. This is at odds and in contrast to the scriptural teaching that the dead go to the grave and know nothing and at the end, a eternal oblivion of the wicked and a eternal life for the saints.
The Greeks had come up with myths that all the dead dwell below the earth in the realm of Hadēs and Persephonē, good and bad alike, leading a shadowy and cheerless existence. The Greek god Hades was the king of the underworld, a place where souls live after death. The Greek god Hermes, the messenger of the gods, would take the dead soul of a person to the underworld (sometimes called Hades or the House of Hades). Hermes would leave the soul on the banks of the River Styx, the river between life and death. Charon, also known as the ferry-man, would take the soul across the river to Hades, if the soul had gold: Upon burial, the family of the dead soul would put coins under the deceased's tongue. Once crossed, the soul would be judged by Aeacus, Rhadamanthus and King Minos. The soul would be sent to Elysium, Tartarus, Asphodel Fields, or the Fields of Punishment.
From the sixth century BC onwards the Greeks developed pagan ideas for the dead, and of reincarnation and even transmigration of souls. These ideas are particularly associated with the pagan Greek Religious Mysteries or Eleusinian mysteries , where initiation in this life into its ‘mysteries’ are the prerequisites for getting to paradise in the next life. So you see where the Greek words used came loaded with ideas not in line with the original Hebrew, but since at the time, Greek was used as basically English is used today to communicate between people across the world, it was translated into these Greek words, and we have to go back to what the original Hebrew scribes words they wrote to understand their meaning.
So lets first look at the translation of the words closely to see their original meaning:
· Hades was the Greek work used in some places for the Hebrew term, Sheol or grave as "the place of the dead". Thus, it is used in reference to both the righteous and the wicked, since both wind up there eventually.
· Gehenna refers to the "Valley of Hinnon", which was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. It was a place where people burned their garbage and thus there was always a fire burning there. Bodies of those deemed to have died in sin without hope of salvation were thrown there to be destroyed. Gehenna is used in the New Testament as a metaphor for the final place of punishment for the wicked after the resurrection.
· Tartaro (the verb "throw to Tartarus") occurs only once in the New Testament in II Peter 2:4, and basically means the abyss or oblivion.
· The Hebrew word Abaddon, meaning to perish or "destruction", is sometimes used and basically means the same as the abyss or oblivion.
In most translations they often translate Gehenna as "Hell" which was the Greek closest to the meaning. Young's Literal Translation is a notable exception, simply using "Gehenna".
As you can see, Hades is the Greek word used for the Hebrew word Sheol in Greek translations of the Hebrew Bible. While earlier translations most often translated Hades as "hell", as does the King James Version, modern translations use the transliteration "Hades", or render the word as allusions "to the grave", "among the dead", "place of the dead" and many other like statements in other verses. In Latin, Hades began to incorrectly be translated as Purgatorium (Purgatory in English use) after about 1200 A.D., but no modern English translations put Hades as Purgatory. In the King James Bible, the Old Testament term Sheol is translated as "Hell" 31 times. However, Sheol was translated as "the grave" 31 other times.[54] Sheol is also translated as "the pit" three times.Modern translations, however, no longer translate Sheol as "Hell" at all, instead rendering it "the grave," "the pit," or "death."
Scripture tells us that the dead are awaiting resurrection at the last judgment, when Christ comes and also when each person will receive his reward (Matt 8:11-12; II Cor 5:10; Rev 20:12), and a time of surprises for some when individuals who have proclaimed their fidelity to Jesus who will discover that in fact, they have no relation to him at all and are part of those lost with the wicked, while others who have made no claims for themselves but like the thief on the cross had faith, will find their lives rewarded with eternal life along with the other saints. (Matt 7:21-23; Luke 13:25-30).
In the Hebrew text it teaches that when people die they go to sheol, the grave (Gen. 37:35), Gehenna which is the consuming by fire of the wicked (Matt 5:22-29; 10:28; 18:9; 23:33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6). Which when the grave or the eternal oblivion of the wicked was translated into Greek, the word Hades was sometimes used, which is a term for the realm of the dead. (Matt 11:23; Luke 10:15; Rev 1:18; 6:8; 20:13-14). Nevertheless the meaning depending on context was the grave, death, or the end of the wicked in which they are ultimately destroyed in the specific way in which scripture shows at the end, which is a consuming fire which destroys them for eternity ("The lake of fire" Rev 20:15)
So we see where the grave or death or eventual destruction of the wicked, was translated using Greek words that since they had no exact ones to use, became a mix of mistranslation, pagan influence, and Greek myth associated with the word, but its original meaning was simple death or the destruction of the wicked at the end. “Hades” was simply the word closest in meaning to the Hebrew “Sheol”. The new versions now leave the word 'Sheol' untranslated, which is better than the Greek words used which cause confusion if the necessary basic Hebrew to Greek word translation used at the time is not understood.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
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