[Hobie]

Originally Posted by Livelystone

Hello Hobie

Do your words speak life or do they speak death?

Although some of your posts are as long as short books I have spent a fair amount of time looking through them looking for a center point of your errors.

It can be summed up that in your opinion, when a person dies everything is all said and done with until some future physical resurrection that is tied in with and commonly taught as a physical rapture of the body of Christ off of Earth. Amen? I think so.

However, the real question still remains and that is; why have you purposely omitted verses that shoot holes in your doctrine, or have you done so simply out of ignorance? Because for sure there are a lot of verses that you have conveniently left out for one reason or the other.

In one place you made the comment that people use the experience of Paul being caught up to the 3rd heaven as proof when people die they are immediately resurrected . Have you ever heard anybody actually preach that as a doctrine, or are you just twisting my words? For sure I have never heard anyone preach that as a supporting doctrine for an immediate resurrection, and for that matter neither do I.

I draw little from that incident, and I only compare it to my own experience of being resurrected from death onto life in one common area, and that is Paul's statement “whether in the body or out of the body I could not tell,” because neither could I when I expieranced being caught up to God.

Simply put when I had my resurrection from when everybody else was looking at my already declared dead body while I was still very much alive but in a different dimension; I did not know until many years what I experienced is repeated in the Bible exactly as I witnessed it, by the Apostle John In Rev,20;10-13 , and not by Paul in 2nd Cor.

So you see Hobie, my expioerance is not just a simple unproven "guesstimate" like your opinion but exactly as recorded by the Apostle John nearly two thousand years ago.

Before going on, should anyone else be reading this post who is not familiar with my testimony of being resurrected before God at the 'resurrection of the dead" they can freely read about it within the 1st 5 pages in chapter 1 of the free preview at this link. The book can be had much cheaper as an e-book and I only use this link because of the Google preview button that is included, and their free shipping to almost anywhere in the world for the paperback version
http://www.bookdepository.com/Modern.../9781457502941

Tell me Hobie, when God warned the rich man who was boasting of his successful life, that the rich man was facing imminent death, did God say that the man would not be held responsible until some date that would not happen for thousands of years later. or did God state that the man would be held responsible that night?

Let us see what God has to say,

Luke 12:20
But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

By the way the Greek word translated for"require," means to be take back. FYI other than God seperating them, the spirit and soul cannot be lawfulluy seperated. In other words before judgement from God happens, the spirit cannot go one direction and the soul another direction.

Are you starting to see the errors of your doctrines?

When the apostle Paul spoke of leaving life as we know it, did he indicate that he would have to wait thousands of years to be with the Lord, or that he would go enjoy the presence of the Lord as soon as he (his spirit and soul) departed his physical body?

Let us ask Paul what he says about facing death.

Phil.1:20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.

21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

I have a lot more to say and verses to share but I have just become aware that my cat has sustained a unfortunately rather serious injury. Therefore, I need to see if there is anything I can do for her.

Blessings

Doug

When a true believer dies, there is no fear, death has no sting for the saints as they know at the resurrection morning when Christ comes they will be raised out of the grave and Christ will take them to heaven to have everlasting life. So death has no downside for those who truly accept Christ, they will wake up and be with their Saviour.

But now lets look at what happens to the Wicked as well as the saints, as the Bible lays it out.
Peter 2:9 - The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to RESERVE the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished.
Acts 2:29-34 - Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell (grave), neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Job understood well what happens after death and how/when the resurrection takes place; let’s see what he says:
Job 14:10-14 - But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? (That is the very question at hand - where is he?) As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: So man lieth down, and riseth not: 1) till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, 2) until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till 3) my change come.

When you look deeper you find the following:
1. 2 Peter 3:10 - But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2. Revelation 15:1-2 - And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3. 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 - Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Here is another example of the sequence of events that occur; we experience death, get buried and stay there until Jesus returns, then we are raised up and given glorified bodies (if we are righteous), then we meet Christ in the air. It is very simple.

Lastly, let’s look at what Jesus Himself had to say about this:
John 14:1-3 - Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Was Christ lying? Has Christ come again yet and received us? No. If He had come then the world would have been utterly destroyed (see 2 Peter 3:10)


Here is how it all comes together:
John 5:28-29 - Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
2 Timothy 4:6-8 - For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Here is the best verse to explain it:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 - But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Basically, in today’s terms, here is what happens:
1. When we die we are truly dead; we know not anything, we do not praise God nor can we get any further reward; the body returns to the earth and the spirit/breath to God. Death is likened to a unconcious sleep in the Bible over and over, but Greek mythology has crept into some peoples belief. Some call it “sleeping in Christ” and some call it “soul sleep” – it doesn’t matter what you call it for it is what it is. “Sleeping in Christ” is just a poetic way of talking about the righteous that are dead – they are sleeping in Christ. And there is no mention anywhere in the scriptures that says the spirit is conscious, has memory, or is anything more than what it says it is - breath.
2. We get buried (usually – but it doesn’t matter to God how we are put to rest) and we stay there until Christ comes.


Now for those who come up with the idea that the “glorified body” that we receive is a spiritual body and not one of flesh and bone, lets look at the scripture.
Luke 24:39 - Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

This is Christ talking to the apostles when they first see Him after He rose from the grave. Does Christ say here that He is in a spiritual body or a flesh one?

Let’s look at the example of Jesus and see how He ascended:
Luke 24:39 - Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

This verifies that Christ had a physical body, not a spiritual one, after He resurrected.
And then we find: John 20:17 - Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

This verifies that Jesus had not yet ascended to heaven, agreed?
Acts 1:3 - To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

This shows that Jesus was here on earth for 40 days after His resurrection – He did not ascend immediately following death.

And finally:
Acts 1:11 - Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Acts 1:22 - Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
Here it is told of Jesus ascending to heaven. No where does it indicate that only Jesus’ spirit went to heaven and His body stayed behind – on the contrary, the disciples watched Him ascend with their own eyes. And since there is no information to show any change in Christ’s presence (switching from body to spirit) the only logical thing that can be concluded from this is that Christ went up in bodily form.
Further, if we are taken up in spiritual bodies, and such bodies do not require food or drink then reconcile these verses for me:
Isaiah 36:17 - Until I come and take you away to a land like your own land, a land of corn and wine, a land of bread and vineyards.
Isaiah 65:17 & 21 - For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind…And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Do spirits require food, drink, and shelter? No. We go to heaven in a fully fleshy body (the whole living soul as defined in Genesis).

Some people have tried to say the following supports Jesus had a spiritual body after His resurrection and not a physical one:
John 20:19 - Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Now, when you compare this verse to the others where Jesus clearly says He is flesh I think it is a huge assumption to say that Jesus walked through the wall (and was thus in a spiritual body) to be with His disciples. The plain teaching of the Bible is that Jesus had a physical body after His resurrection and maintained that state even at His ascension.

[Livelystone]

@Hobie

Rather than me waste a lot of broadband space quoting your words, how about you just simply deal with the 2 passages in Scripture I just gave you in my last post?

Fair enough?

Doug

[Hobie]

Originally Posted by Livelystone

@Hobie

Rather than me waste a lot of broadband space quoting your words, how about you just simply deal with the 2 passages in Scripture I just gave you in my last post?

Fair enough?

Doug

I did, when you depart from the living, you go to the grave and the next thing you are aware of is Christ raising you up, so there is nothing in between. You are dead.

Now as for the soul, that is the breath of life. Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

When God united His breath, or spirit with man, man became a living soul. A living soul is composed of body and spirit.

When one dies, their spirit goes back to God who gave it, at which point, one is no longer a living soul. This is why humanity is not immortal, and must receive the same from God as a gift of salvation.

[Hobie]

If one looks in the scripture, its clear what a soul is. Lets begin by taking a look at Matthew 10:28:
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Most Christians can examine the verse and agree that Matthew 10:28 does not define what a soul is. While the NT's usage of soul/psuche (Strong's #5590) is an expanded one that covers various symbolic meanings used, however none of the NT references that I'm aware of define what a soul is. That definition is found in the OT.

Now some points on this verse in question:

1) By one saying that this verse possibly indicates that the soul is a seperate, dualistic part of a human, than the verse itself states clearly that the soul is NOT immortal; "destroy both soul and body in hell". That alone tells me that the soul, however we decide to define it, CAN be destroyed - thus it is not immortal.

2) When we look at the various definitions for psuche in the lexicon we find a miriad of possible definitions. How do you decide which one of these definitions fits?

3) When one reads the entire Matthew 10 (particularly starting at 10:16 onward) account we find that Christ is talking to the apostles in regards to their persecution as they are being sent out to spread the Gospel. He tells them how hard it is going to be (such as in 10:9 how they would be poor (no gold, nor silver, nor brass)). He tells them not to fear those that are going to persecute them, that they would be brought before governers and kings (verse 18) by those that would have them persecuted. Basically, what we find is Jesus warning them but at the same time giving them strength to do His work - that is the theme - not fearing men. He is telling them to stay strong, for though men may be able to kill them ONLY God can determine ones salvation.

4) I think the crux of some arguments are going to be "why is body and soul mentioned seperately if they are one and the same?That is a very simple answer; the NT expands the means of words used in the OT. Soul in the NT, as we've seen from the Strong's Lexicon #5590, has various meanings. But you'll notice that virtually every definition (in particularly definition #2) shows traits that are associated with the whole being of a person (their feelings, desires, affections, etc). These are parts of the whole person, not some seperate "essense" as the very last definition (2c) would try to squeeze in. As such, the verse simply means [paraphrase] "do not be afraid of those that can kill you, if you are going to be afraid of anyone be afraid of God, for it is He that can destroy you utterly as it is He that decides your salvation".


I think once we look at the entire body of texts the overwhelming conclusion of what a soul is easily found. According to rules of hermeneutics; we must harmonize less-clear verses with those that are more clear. As such, Gen 2:7 is the clearer verse and it tells us exactly what a soul is.


Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

When God united His breath, or spirit with man, man became a living soul. A living soul is composed of body and spirit.

05397 hmvn n@shamah nesh-aw-maw'

from 05395; n f; {See TWOT on 1433 @@ '1433a'}

AV-breath 17, blast 3, spirit 2, inspiration 1, souls 1; 24

1) breath, spirit
1a) breath (of God)
1b) breath (of man)
1c) every breathing thing
1d) spirit (of man)

When one dies, their spirit goes back to God who gave it, at which point, one is no longer a living soul. This is why humanity is not immortal, and must receive the same from God as a gift of salvation.

The Bible tells us what a soul is (which we saw in Gen 2:7) and that only God has immortality at this point (1 Timothy 1:17 & 1 Timothy 6:15-16). Let's see those verses quickly:

1 Timothy 6:15-16 - Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

1 Timothy 1:17 - Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

To arrive at the conclusion that souls are somehow immortal would take a lot of scriptural proof, and as far as I know, such scriptures simply do not exist.

Now there are many verses in Psalms where David is talking about his enemies seeking him to destroy his soul.

Psalms 40:14 - Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.

Psalms 35:4 - Let them be confounded and put to shame that seek after my soul: let them be turned back and brought to confusion that devise my hurt.

When we look to the rules of hermeneutics we see that we must interpret the means of obscure passages with those that are clearer. As such, we have a verse that tells what a soul is [Gen 2:7], that only God has immortality [specifically 1 Tim 6:16], that man can in fact destroy a human soul (for that is what David was talking about)[Psalms 40:14 specifically]; in light of this it would seem the clearest interpretation that can be derived is that the Bible teaches body/soul/spirit wholism verses body/soul dualism.

To add a verse to further support the Gen 2:7 verse (for we should never rely on just one verse for any biblical truth) that man is a soul instead of man having a soul;

1 Corinthians 15:45 - And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

This verse supports Gen 2:7 for 1) it is talking about the same event, the creation of man, and 2) it reaffirms that man was made a living soul - not man was given a living soul.

God will destroy both body and soul in hell. The soul is not immortal.

Now lets address the Matt 10:28 verse again for a small point that might have been overlooked: Matt 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

This marks a definite separation of body from 'soul.'

To say that the soul does not die or drifts off somewhere when a person dies we'd have to eliminate Gen 2:7 and 1 Corinthians 15:45 from the Bible, which of course we cannot do. Or is there another alternative that will harmonize all of these verses? Yes there is, and the key to that is understanding the definitions of the Greek word psuche, here are the definitions from Strong:


1) breath

a) the breath of life

1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing

a) of animals

b) of men

b) life

c) that in which there is life

1) a living being, a living soul

2) the soul

a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)
Now, I must agree with definition 2a due to its agreement in harmonizing all the scriptures in play. I cannot agree with definitions 2b or 2c for those are what we are trying to prove in the first place. Also, using those definitions puts disharmony between the verses in question. You see, as I tried to explain earlier, what Christ was telling the apostles was simple; "don't fear those that can kill you, for they can't take away your reward of salvation no matter what they do, they cannot kill (def 2a) your desires, your affections i.e. what is in your heart; but God can utterly destroy you". The verse was not intended to define what a soul is, as such we must lend more weight to those verses that state outright what a soul is; the word psuche was used in this verse to denote those intangible parts of a human that cannot be harmed by man - the seat of the emotions and intellect.

[Hobie]

When the dust returns to the earth, and the spirit back to God who gave it, there is no longer a living soul. If the soul were immortal, then the scriptures would not speak of living, or dying souls. Of course a soul would be living if souls were immortal, and of course they would never be spoken of as dying if they were immortal either. So why do the scriptures apply both to the soul?

Ps 6:2 Have mercy upon me, O LORD; for I am weak: O LORD, heal me; for my bones are vexed. 3 My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O LORD, how long? 4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. 5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

In the above, David seeks to have himself, that is his soul delivered from death, because in the grave there is no remembrance of God, and he cannot give God thanks from the grave. How is this possible if the soul is immortal? If the soul were alive and in heaven with God surely it would be praising Him. Or if it were in hell, surely it would be cursing Him.

Ps 7:1 O LORD my God, in thee do I put my trust: save me from all them that persecute me, and deliver me: 2 Lest he tear my soul like a lion, rending it in pieces, while there is none to deliver. 3 O LORD my God, if I have done this; if there be iniquity in my hands; 4 If I have rewarded evil unto him that was at peace with me; (yea, I have delivered him that without cause is mine enemy 5 Let the enemy persecute my soul, and take it; yea, let him tread down my life upon the earth, and lay mine honour in the dust. Selah.

Again what sense do the above verses make if a soul is not a living person, rather than some floating entity that lives apart from the body? Can a soul be torn to pieces? Will it end when ones life does? Yes it will.

Ps 30:2 O LORD my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me. 3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

How can a soul go to the grave? If it is immortal and goes to heaven or hell at death it should not be spoken of as dying and going to the grave. If on the other hand, it is a living being, then it could be said that ones soul goes to the grave when they die, it is it’s end. When life ends, it ends.

Ps 33:18 Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy; 19 To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine. 20 Our soul waiteth for the LORD: he is our help and our shield. 21 For our heart shall rejoice in him, because we have trusted in his holy name. 22 Let thy mercy, O LORD, be upon us, according as we hope in thee.

If our souls must be delivered from death, then they are not immortal. They are like us, they are us, when we are alive. When we are raised from the dead and given everlasting life, we will again be living souls.

Ps 40:13 Be pleased, O LORD, to deliver me: O LORD, make haste to help me. 14 Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.

Who can destroy a soul if it is immortal? It is not. When life ends, it ends, because when one is alive, they are a living soul.

Ps 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish. 13 This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah. 14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. 15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

Again the soul being associated with life, being redeemed from the grave. If it were immortal, this would not be so.

Ps 56:12 Thy vows are upon me, O God: I will render praises unto thee. 13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death:wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?

Again, when God delivers the soul from death, one can walk in the light of the living. Makes no sense if the soul is immortal.

Ps 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them. 50 He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence; 51 And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham:

God spared not the Egyptians souls from death, but killed them by the plagues. Their souls died, that is, they died. Obviously their souls were not immortal.

Ps 86:1 Bow down thine ear, O LORD, hear me: for I am poor and needy. 2 Preserve my soul; for I am holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee. 3 Be merciful unto me, O Lord: for I cry unto thee daily.

Who needs their soul to be preserved if it is immortal?

Ps 89:47 Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain? 48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

Again, why would a soul go to the grave at death if it is immortal and goes to heaven or hell at death? It is because the body goes into the grave at death, it is a dead soul, it is not living, because the body and the breath or spirit from God have separated.

Ps 116:7 Return unto thy rest, O my soul; for the LORD hath dealt bountifully with thee. 8 For thou hast delivered my soul from death, mine eyes from tears, and my feet from falling. 9 I will walk before the LORD in the land of the living.

Because his soul was delivered from death, he will walk before the Lord in the land of the living, he is a living soul.

Ps 119:174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight. 175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me. 176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.

Makes no sense if the soul is immortal.

Isa 38:16 O Lord, by these things men live, and in all these things is the life of my spirit: so wilt thou recover me, and make me to live. 17 Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back. 18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. 19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.

Because he was delivered from death, his soul was delivered from the pit of corruption, that is, the grave. The living, they are the ones who praise God. The dead cannot, because they are not living souls. All such nonsense if the soul is immortal.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

A prophecy concerning Christ. How can a soul be an offering? A sacrifice must die. If the soul is immortal, then it cannot be a sacrifice. Yet Christ poured out His soul unto death for our sins. He died the death we deserved, and when He did, He was no longer a living soul.

[Hobie]

Going over some points again which support this as we see in this verse.

Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

If a soul is immortal it cannot die. God says the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezek 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

Again, the soul is identified with the person. If the person lives, the soul lives. If the person dies, the soul dies. A soul is a living person with a body combined with the breath, or spirit from God.

Matt 16: 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

How can one lose their soul, if their soul is immortal? Where could it go to get away from them.

Acts 2: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Christ was raised before His body saw corruption. Thus His soul was not left in hell, or the grave. He once again walked in the light of the living, that is, He became a living soul. This is our salvation. Our souls will not be left in the prison house of death, but we will once again be raised and receive the breath, or spirit of God in our spiritual bodies, and then we shall ever be with the Lord.

Acts 3: 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Every soul that will not hear and accept Christ, will be destroyed.

1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

No mistake about when it is that we receive immortality. It is at the last trump, when the dead are raised incorruptible, and immortal. None of the above makes sense if the soul is immortal.

Heb 10:38-39 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

The soul needs saving, it is not immortal.

James 5:19-20 19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

The soul needs to be saved from death, it is not immortal.

[Hobie]

Now some people just pick a verse and read it without context or pick what they want. Here is one that some say it says we shall never die when they read this verse John 11:25 & 26 - Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.

I can certainly see where this verse, especially due to the use of the word never, does make it seem that the soul/spirit/something doesn't die. So let's look at this.

Reading through the verse I see some keys; 1) we see Christ saying He is the resurrection (which we all firmly believe) and 2) He talks of those that were dead. Now since we know that Christ is the resurrection (i.e. - He has the power to resurrect us) and He will resurrect those that died who believed in Him. But then Christ says "And"! Of course "and" means "in addition to". Christ is talking about two groups of believers; in verse 25 He is addressing those that died (the ones He'll raise from the grave), in verse 26 He is addressing those that will be alive when He returns - for they will put on immortality [1 Corinthians 15:53 & 54] and never die.

You have to read carefully to see there are two different groups being addressed by Christ - and recognizing that puts this verse in perfect harmony with all the other verses

Some other verses which are hard to understand are ones in Revelation so lets address the verses:
Revelation 6:9 - And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 20:4 - And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God...

Many says this leads them to believe in what is termed today as the "immortal soul". But we should bear in mind certain things when reading any prophetic book , it is the highly figurative language being used. For instance, John also saw strange beasts coming out of the sea, a woman riding a ferocious beast, another woman clothed with the sun, etc. There is all kinds of imagery used in Revelation that is symbolic of a greater truth; the souls under the alter is no exception and hardly constitutes a reliable reference in which one should base a doctrine on. The verse in Rev 18 should be questioned on this premise as well. If this verse is to be taken literally then what reason or purpose is there in stuffing martyred souls under an altar? Is this to be taken literally? Lets

Now lets look closely at the story of Lazarus in John 11:

1) Jesus is talking about the death of Lazarus. If the soul had gone to heaven or was drifting around somewhere this story would not make sense.
2) Christ says (verse 11) "Our friend Lazarus sleepeth...but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep". When questioned by the disciples it says (verse 14) "Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead". As Christ said, Lazarus was dead, utterly and completely dead, and had been dead for 4 days at this point in the chapter. Christ makes no mention as to a "sleeping soul" - Christ makes no differenciation at all in fact.
3) When Christ does eventually raise Lazarus from the tomb (verse 43), Lazarus comes forward in a regular fleshy body - not as a disembodied spirit; for he is still wearing his graveclothes and bound (as the custom of the day was) hand and foot (verse 44).

You see, that is what makes our coming ressurection a true miracle - that Christ performs another act of creation and brings us to life. There is no indication in the Bible that a disembodied soul/spirit returns to reanimate a dead body - the soul IS that dead body.

So the question here is what is a soul, and in light of the direct references (Gen 2:7 and 1 Corinthians 15:45) we know what a soul is - it is the body. The NT's psuche, is an expanded, and somewhat poetic, description for the untangible parts of a whole person such as the feelings, the desires, etc. These same attributes are also given to the heart and the mind because they help to make up a whole person.

If someone says that any part of Lazarus (or ourselves for that matter) isn't 100% dead when Christ says he is dead and doesn't further qualify His statement, then that means we are falling under the belief of the very first lie ever recorded in the Bible -
Genesis 3:4 - And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Souls can die. The souls of humans and animals can die. This is because a soul is a living being, not some form of disembodied spirit or ghost. Souls could not die if they were immortal.

Considering the above, and that the bible refers to the dead as sleeping many times (Take a look at Lk 8:52&53, Jn 11:11-14, Matt 27:52, 1Thes 4:13-17, 1 Cor 15:51-55,Acts 7:59&56, 1 Cor 11:29&30, 2 Pet 3:4, Ps 13:3, IKing 2:10, 11:43, 14:20, 31, 15:8, 2 Chr 21:1 1, 26:23 , Job 7:21 , 14:10-12, Dan 12:2), and that they have no thoughts in death (Eccl 9:5-6&10, Ps 146:3-4) and do not praise God (Ps 115:17, Isa 38:18&19), and do not even remember Him or give Him thanks (Ps 6:5), I believe sleep in reference to the dead means just that, body and spirit, and therefore soul.

This is not to mention the fact also, that the dead are referred to as awaking when they are raised (Ps 17:14&15, Isa 26:19-21, Dan 12:2, Jn 11:11, Eph 5:14). Let’s not forget either that Peter said David had not yet ascended to heaven (Acts 2:29-35). That the soul is not immortal is also obvious from the fact that the bible says the wicked will perish many times (Ps 37:20, 68:1-3, 73:27, 112:10, Isa 41:11-12, Jn 3:14-18, 1 Cor 1:17-18 , II Th 2:10-12, 2 Pet 2:12, 2 Pet 3:9-12). There is more that contradicts the idea that the soul is immortal, and the dead are alive as 'spirit beings' and/or conscious in heaven, or hell. In short, the overwhelming majority of scripture in relation to the dead, does not support the immortality of the soul, or consciousness in death. When you die, you go down to the grave, you turn to dust, and only Christ at the Second Coming when the resurrection occurs, will raise you out of it.

[Livelystone]

Before taking on the definition of the soul but first going back to the resurrection upon our death.

You seem to be taking the position that because because God told the man that "this night his soul would be required” and despite the fact that the Greek word used for require means "to take back" that shows an action on God's part with nothing to do with where the person goes after their death, that in your opinion this night means thousands of years later. With rationale like that is hard to find even a basis to have meaningful discussion.

Even if it didn't mean as you indicate that it has something to do with what this person feels or should I say from your position what they do not feel or experience after physical death, your words and opinion are totally contrary to the words of David.

Psalm 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there

We are told to live by every word that comes from God for the simple reason that if we do not consider all verses that pertain to any given subject, we will not come to the correct conclusion.

Then there are the words of the apostle Paul that I already quoted that notes the difference in Paul's opinion of the time it will take for him to be with the Lord if he becomes absent from the body immediately (as in dead) compared to if he continues to live on in the body for the benefit of those whom he teaches.

What say you?

Blessings

Doug

PS. This is a rather simple subject that we need to get through before we ever take on the complexity of the soul, and how when Adam was 1st created had the spirit and soul of God within it.

[oatmeal]

Originally Posted by Lon

And...to be absent from the body is to be...?

Why not quote the entire verse?

Why not read the entire verse?

Why not check the context of the verse?

Until you do, you have nothing to offer.

oatmeal

[oatmeal]

Originally Posted by Livelystone

Hello Hobie

Do your words speak life or do they speak death?

Although some of your posts are as long as short books I have spent a fair amount of time looking through them looking for a center point of your errors.

It can be summed up that in your opinion, when a person dies everything is all said and done with until some future physical resurrection that is tied in with and commonly taught as a physical rapture of the body of Christ off of Earth. Amen? I think so.

However, the real question still remains and that is; why have you purposely omitted verses that shoot holes in your doctrine, or have you done so simply out of ignorance? Because for sure there are a lot of verses that you have conveniently left out for one reason or the other.

In one place you made the comment that people use the experience of Paul being caught up to the 3rd heaven as proof when people die they are immediately resurrected . Have you ever heard anybody actually preach that as a doctrine, or are you just twisting my words? For sure I have never heard anyone preach that as a supporting doctrine for an immediate resurrection, and for that matter neither do I.

I draw little from that incident, and I only compare it to my own experience of being resurrected from death onto life in one common area, and that is Paul's statement “whether in the body or out of the body I could not tell,” because neither could I when I expieranced being caught up to God.

Simply put when I had my resurrection from when everybody else was looking at my already declared dead body while I was still very much alive but in a different dimension; I did not know until many years what I experienced is repeated in the Bible exactly as I witnessed it, by the Apostle John In Rev,20;10-13 , and not by Paul in 2nd Cor.

So you see Hobie, my expioerance is not just a simple unproven "guesstimate" like your opinion but exactly as recorded by the Apostle John nearly two thousand years ago.

Before going on, should anyone else be reading this post who is not familiar with my testimony of being resurrected before God at the 'resurrection of the dead" they can freely read about it within the 1st 5 pages in chapter 1 of the free preview at this link. The book can be had much cheaper as an e-book and I only use this link because of the Google preview button that is included, and their free shipping to almost anywhere in the world for the paperback version
http://www.bookdepository.com/Modern.../9781457502941

Tell me Hobie, when God warned the rich man who was boasting of his successful life, that the rich man was facing imminent death, did God say that the man would not be held responsible until some date that would not happen for thousands of years later. or did God state that the man would be held responsible that night?

Let us see what God has to say,

Luke 12:20
But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

By the way the Greek word translated for"require," means to be take back. FYI other than God seperating them, the spirit and soul cannot be lawfulluy seperated. In other words before judgement from God happens, the spirit cannot go one direction and the soul another direction.

Are you starting to see the errors of your doctrines?

When the apostle Paul spoke of leaving life as we know it, did he indicate that he would have to wait thousands of years to be with the Lord, or that he would go enjoy the presence of the Lord as soon as he (his spirit and soul) departed his physical body?

Let us ask Paul what he says about facing death.

Phil.1:20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.

21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

I have a lot more to say and verses to share but I have just become aware that my cat has sustained a unfortunately rather serious injury. Therefore, I need to see if there is anything I can do for her.

Blessings

Doug

Paul was looking forward to the return of Christ, I Thessalonians 4:13-18. that is our departure. I look forward to our departure. That is better than living on the earth and it is certainly better than dying, even though for a righteous cause. In the context, the furtherance of the gospel is the righteous cause.

The context is the furtherance of the gospel.

Our departure is better than the furtherance of the gospel.

For at the departure, "so shall we ever be with the lord" and not one moment sooner.

Luke 12:16-21

"16 Then He spoke a parable to them, saying: “The ground of a certain rich man yielded plentifully. 17 And he thought within himself, saying, ‘What shall I do, since I have no room to store my crops?’ 18 So he said, ‘I will do this: I will pull down my barns and build greater, and there I will store all my crops and my goods. 19 And I will say to my soul, p“Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years; take your ease; qeat, drink, and be merry.” ’ 20 But God said to him, ‘Fool! This night your soul will be required of you; then whose will those things be which you have provided?’

21 “So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.” "

Parables are not to be taken literally. Hence the use of the figure of speech called parable. The point of the parable is not death but our attitude towards God.

"So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.” "

The point of the parable is about being rich toward God.

You can do better than that.

oatmeal

[oatmeal]

Originally Posted by RevTestament

Hobie, Jesus can't teach the gospel to someone who is not conscious. The spirits are obviously teachable while awaiting their resurrection. Read those verses again. From the physical, first death perspective, Lazarus slept, from the spiritual, second death perspective, he could arise, because he was not dead.

Which spirits? Alive spirits or dead spirits?

Lazarus was dead, is dead. He has no life.

There is no consciousness in death, neither physically, nor mentally nor spiritually.

Psalm 6:5

oatmeal

[Livelystone]

Originally Posted by oatmeal

Why not quote the entire verse?

Why not read the entire verse?

Why not check the context of the verse?

Until you do, you have nothing to offer.

oatmeal

Quote it and we will go from there!

Fair enough?

[oatmeal]

Originally Posted by Livelystone

Quote it and we will go from there!

Fair enough?

Lon?

Hello?

Lon?

Hey, is Lon there?

Does Lon live at your address?

I am sorry, I think you have the wrong number.

oatmeal

[Livelystone]

Originally Posted by oatmeal

Paul was looking forward to the return of Christ, I Thessalonians 4:13-18. that is our departure. I look forward to our departure. That is better than living on the earth and it is certainly better than dying, even though for a righteous cause. In the context, the furtherance of the gospel is the righteous cause.

The context is the furtherance of the gospel.

Our departure is better than the furtherance of the gospel.

For at the departure, "so shall we ever be with the lord" and not one moment sooner.

Luke 12:16-21

"16 Then He spoke a parable to them, saying: “The ground of a certain rich man yielded plentifully. 17 And he thought within himself, saying, ‘What shall I do, since I have no room to store my crops?’ 18 So he said, ‘I will do this: I will pull down my barns and build greater, and there I will store all my crops and my goods. 19 And I will say to my soul, p“Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years; take your ease; qeat, drink, and be merry.” ’ 20 But God said to him, ‘Fool! This night your soul will be required of you; then whose will those things be which you have provided?’

21 “So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.” "

Parables are not to be taken literally. Hence the use of the figure of speech called parable. The point of the parable is not death but our attitude towards God.

"So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.” "

The point of the parable is about being rich toward God.

You can do better than that.

oatmeal

Only an advocate of murdering unborn babies such as yourself could write something as stupid as what your post reveals about you.

As far as your comment on Paul referring to the demonic false doctrine of the rapture in his epistle to the Philippians, back up a couple of verses from my quote.

Philippians 1:20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.

21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;

Only somebody like you could even possibly think that Paul was not speaking about dying and the sentence of death that was upon him. Otherwise those Christians whom he was writing to would be leaving with him if he was referring to any type of "church wide" resurrection.

Then there is your brainstorm that God telling a man (whether parable or not what difference does it make) that his soul would be required of him that night, when the definition for the word "required" means for God to take back does not shown an immediate resurrection of the dead to judgment before God. People with your insight are why both our government and church are both in serious trouble

About the only advantage to someone such as yourself who supports abortion is that you hopefully you will not procreate. All you need to have done now is the next time you advise some woman to have the life sucked out of her and flushed down the toilet, have the same doctor cut your tongue out and the world will become a much better place.

As I've said before you are a disgusting person and you make my skin crawl. It is no surprise that your opinion of the Bible and what you think is edifying to others, spells the same death that you stand for in your personal life.

Call your teacher back and see if he wants to step up to the plate for you....... at least he has not confessed to being a baby murderer

Doug

PS. Interesting that you folks support the false doctrine of the rapture of Christ coming down and pulling up the church off of Earth when God has already said 7 times in the Bible, “my Lord said to my Lord, sit here at my right hand until I make your enemies by footstool”. Yet you and your kind change it to mean "sit here only until I send you away to get a bunch of people and then come back and sit here again. Then we will all go together to make your enemies your footstool.

LOL, talk about a dead church, just take a look around yourself and you can see that you are already in one.

[Lon]

Originally Posted by Hobie

Well lets take a look what Paul meant by 'Absent from the body, present with the Lord'? Here is the verse:

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

Many ignore the rest of the Bible and think that what Paul is teaching in this verse is that when the saved die they go right to be with the Lord. But lets look to see if this what Paul is really saying or people are reading into the verse to support a false doctrine?

You seem, to me, fascinated with your own opinion and thoughts. I don't share that appreciation. Some verses similar to Doug's were on my mind:

Originally Posted by Livelystone

Luke 12:20
But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

Phil.1:20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.

21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.


Doug

Along with Doug, many scriptures come to mind. Hebrews 12:1&2 was at the top for me.

Originally Posted by oatmeal

Why not quote the entire verse?

Why not read the entire verse?

Why not check the context of the verse?

Until you do, you have nothing to offer.

oatmeal

You 2 can think what you like, it doesn't match my understanding of scripture so will only appeal to someone who doesn't read their bible. There are many scriptures, so your previous and now this end of your post didn't mean much to me. As I said, I don't need to get nasty here, I disagree with you both. No surprise. Nearly every evangelical will disagree with you. This isn't where I hang my hat. I disagree with you both and that's about the end of it. I don't care if you disagree with me on this particular. More power to you.

Originally Posted by Hobie

Let the Bible interpret the Bible, not mans ideas or Greek mythology.

I'll simply say "I don't think much of this portion of your biblical scholasticism," and leave it at that.
If you want to make a mountain out of this mole-hill, go for it. I'm rather done. We disagree, end of story. Catch me on something I want to go to the mat over.