[Cruciform]

Originally Posted by HisServant

No, he is just stating what is painfully obvious to anyone that reads any of your posts.

Already answered.

Gossip is talking behind someones back...

gossip ~ "casual conversation or unproven reports about other people" (New Oxford English Dictionary)

Nice try, though...



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

[Cruciform]

Originally Posted by serpentdove

Mary had normal marital relations after the birth of Jesus. She was not a perpetual virgin as Roman Catholics teach.

Answered here, here, here, here, and here. Take your pick.


Even the principle Protestant reformers---Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin---passionately taught and defended Mary's Perpetual Virginity.



Gaudium de veritate,

Crucform
+T+

[HisServant]

Originally Posted by Cruciform

Answered here, here, here, and here, and here. Take your pick.


Even the principle Protestant reformers---Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin---passionately taught and defended Mary's Perpetual Virginity.



Gaudium de veritate,

Crucform
+T+

That's because they were educated by the Catholic Church... DOOOOOH! And most did not want to break from the RCC, they wanted the RCC to reform back to its apostolic roots.

Very poor rebuttal there.

[Cruciform]

Originally Posted by HisServant

That's because they were educated by the Catholic Church... DOOOOOH! And most did not want to break from the RCC, they wanted the RCC to reform back to its apostolic roots.

They "broke from the RCC" precisely to the degree that they believed they were required to by Scripture and the Holy Spirit---just like you have. (Wait---are you saying that those who claim to follow "what the Bible teaches" according to "the Holy Spirit's guidance" may not actually be doing so...?!) Note, however, that they all categorically disagreed with one another about exactly what theological form that departure ought to take---just like you do with millions of your own fellow non-Catholics throughout the 38,000+ schismatic denominations and sects in existence today. If you guys ever manage to figure out what in the world you're doing, then go ahead and give us Catholics a call. (Yeah, they're not going to call.) Until then, you've got your own eye-beam to deal with.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

[Gurucam]

Originally Posted by Cruciform

• Amen, Catholics agree wholeheartedly. That's why your implicit claim to the contrary is nothing more than a Straw Man Fallacy.
• Also, given that this has been explained to you repeatedly by the Catholics here on TOL, such continuing false statements on your part must at this point simply be considered examples of deliberate lying (Prov. 19:5).
• Finally, you should take serious note of the fact that those who must "support" their own fallacious "arguments" with appeals to sources that are proven liars make themselves equally culpable for those same lies.

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Clearly for Catholics, (and probably generally also) there must be some good merits for worshiping Mother Mary instead of Jesus. May be you can shed some light?

Indeed Peter's church was and is for those on the physical side. Where as Paul's church was and is for those on the spirit side.

And Mary was on Jesus' physical side. Is this why Mary is the great hope among Catholics?

Where as the Spirit of Jesus is the great provision in Paul's commission.

[Cruciform]

Originally Posted by Gurucam

Clearly for Catholics, (and probably generally also) there must be some good merits for worshiping Mother Mary instead of Jesus. May be you can shed some light?

Two points:

• Catholics do not, as you write, "worship Mother Mary." Rather, we worship God and God alone. Our spiritual devotion to Mary and the Saints in no way qualifies as "worship."
• Nor are Catholics devoted to Mary "instead of" Jesus, but rather because of Jesus. Your statement simply engages in a False Dichotomy Fallacy.

Regarding Catholic devotion to Mary, see this, this, and this.


(By the way, I congratulate you on composing such a concise and readable post. Very nice.)



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

[Gurucam]

Originally Posted by Cruciform

Two points:

• Catholics do not, as you write, "worship Mother Mary." Rather, we worship God and God alone. Our spiritual devotion to Mary and the Saints in no way qualifies as "worship."
• Nor are Catholics devoted to Mary "instead of" Jesus, but rather because of Jesus. Your statement simply engages in a False Dichotomy Fallacy.

Rergarding Catholic devotion to Mary, see this, this, and this.


(By the way, I congratulate you on composing such a concise and readable post. Very nice.)



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

O.K.

Honoring and praising Mary and the saints seems quite appropriate, just and right. Spiritual devotion is quite another thing.

What do you mean by spiritual devotion to Mary and the Saints?

Do you mean the active flow of love for and to, them? The flow of love (to any person, thing or circumstance) at any forum, is spiritual devotion.

Is it this you mean or more than this?

Love is the essential fabric of spirit and Spirit. It does not seem that love can arise and be expressed in Peter's church, i.e. according to the commission which he was given by Jesus. No offense meant. The surfacing of love's urgings speaks of spiritual awareness. If love is surfacing for people in Peter's church it seems time for them to move onto Paul's commission. Laws, commandments and canons are no longer for them any more. The Spirit must now be their informant and guide. They must be led by the Spirit unconditionally.

[Cruciform]

Originally Posted by Gurucam

O.K. Honoring and praising Mary and the saints seems quite appropriate. However what do you mean by spiritual devotion to Mary and the Saints?

It means precisely what you just said: to imitate the godly virtues of past believers, and to give honor where honor is due. See the sources cited in Post #126 above.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

[Gurucam]

Originally Posted by Cruciform

It means precisely what you just said: to imitate the godly virtues of past believers, and to give honor where honor is due. See the sources cited in Post #126 above.

You said also: Our spiritual devotion to Mary and the Saints . . . .



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Spiritual devotion is the flow of love (to any person, thing or circumstance) at any forum. Love cannot surface and/or flow in Peter's church. Peter's church is anchored on ideals and laws and not love or love urgings.

John: 21 verse:17 - He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. . . .

Jesus did not confirm, Yes, Peter I know that you love me in response to Peter's direct statement, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Indeed Jesus knew that Peter did not love Him. Peter was Satan, i.e. his heart was waxed gross. Therefore Peter could not be aware of love's urgings which can arise only in one's heart or spirit.

This revelation contain an important message which only the spiritually aware can and will discern.

Peter did not have a spiritual connection to Jesus. Satan cannot have spiritual connections. Peter had only a close physical or Satanic connection to Jesus.

By asking Peter three times if he loved Him, Jesus was conveying to those with 'ears to hear' (i.e. the spiritually aware) that Peter could not love anyone, his heart was waxed gross.

Followers of Peter must of necessity be like Peter. There can be no spiritual devotion from or among, them.

At the first surfacing of love's urgings (i.e. spiritual devotion) among those in Peter's church they will naturally and spontaneously drop out of Peter's church and seek out Paul's commission.

No one can actually express spiritual devotion to Mary and the Saints within Peter's church. This is not possible.

However as your Pope confirmed Catholic can Honor and praise Mary and the Saints and they must.

[Cruciform]

Originally Posted by Gurucam

...By asking Peter three times if he loved Him, Jesus was conveying to those with 'ears to hear' (i.e. the spiritually aware) that Peter could not love anyone, his heart was waxed gross.

Where in the world did you ever dig up such a notion?



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

[Gurucam]

Originally Posted by Cruciform

Where in the world did you ever dig up such a notion?



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Which 'notion' exactly?

Is it the notion that Jesus knew that Peter did not love him? This is the typical three stokes to Peter and Jesus is proven right.

Is it that Jesus knew that Peter was Satan?

Is it that Peter sought to take Jesus off his God given path?

Is it that Jesus needed a Satanic church?

Is it that God is love and God is Spirit and can be discerned only intuitively through one's spirit?

Therefore if one cannot discern the Spirit of Jesus one cannot be aware of love or love's urgings.

Are you querying that Jesus had to come to Peter in a physical body, other wise Peter could not discern Jesus where as Paul was able to discern Jesus in His Spirit?

Is it that being only physically aware like Peter, one cannot know Love and love's urgings and one cannot be led by love's urgings?

Is it that only when one is spiritually aware like Paul, one can know and be led by love and love's urgings?

Which of these are new to you?

Fact is all of these are clearly confirmed in the KJV N.T.

If you want to ask about each conclusion, one at a time, I can literally provide the KJV N.T. links.

Do not be surprised that you do not know things in the KJV N.T. that is pain to the chosen few. This is the way it goes. One must be seeking Truth, with an open heart (i.e. not a waxed gross heart), in order for the KJV N.T. to give up its secretes. If your agenda is to prop-up and promote the Pope's agenda, the KJV N.T. will not open up its Truths to you. You have to come as naked as a new born, i.e. with a heart that is not waxed gross. You must seek ye first the kingdom of God within your heart, then All things will be added. You have to drop the Pope and his essentially Satanic ideas. You must stand alone with the Spirit. Then the KJV N.T. will reveal it's secretes to you.

Also do not be surprised that you do not know things in the KJV N.T.. for indeed the very great majority (i.e. all but a few) in traditional Christianity are erring and will err and not be chosen because they are do not know Truth. Many false prophets came in Jesus' name and are misguiding many, from within what passes for Christianity. This is resulting in many being called and few chosen, from within traditional Christianity.

Bottom line: Do not expect the commonly shared ideas (i.e. the most basic ideas) in traditional Christianity to be Truth. Billion cannot know Truth, for if they did, billion will be chosen. This is not to be case as Jesus prophesied. Fact is only a few, i.e. the chosen few, will have Truth. Truth is the most uncommon and scarce thing to be found among those who are called Christians. Expect also that Satan have fooled the world. Who else but Satan will cause many to be called and few chosen. Expect to find your self under the spell of Satan if it is that you share the fundamental beliefs of the very great majority in tradition Christianity . . . like for example, the erroneous idea, that Jesus rose to heaven in a physical body.

Fact is Jesus simply presented Himself in a physical body because Peter and other unawares needed a physically discernible sign that He rose to heaven three days after his death and that all who become Christians before they die will also rise to heaven, in three day to be like angels in heaven. Jesus was born a man to taste death like an ordinary human. Jesus the man on earth was no different from all other Christians, Jesus rose to heaven like an angel, i.e. in a spirit body without a physical body. After Jesus rise to heaven, it is in this spirit body that God sent Jesus back into the hearts of those under the law.

Fact is now (for the past 2000 odd years) Jesus is our lord but only in His Spirit (2 Corinthians: 3 verse: 17). Satan has billion in the world still erroneously looking for their savior to appear in a physical body. 2000 odd years ago, after Jesus rose to heaven, God sent the Jesus back in His Spirit into the hearts of those under the law, so that they might become adopted children of God (re. Galatians: 4 verses: 5 & 6). The very great majority of those called to Christianity have reject this kind offer from God. Instead, under the influence of Peter, they deny and blasphemy the Spirit of Jesus which is the Holy Spirit. They have not seek ye first the kingdom of God within their own hearts or spirit. They have gone about a variety of their own righteousness which was intended to empower Peter and his descendants and not the Spirit.

Wake up and smell the aroma of Truth before too late will be the cry.

[bucksplasher]

Originally Posted by Gurucam

Which 'notion' exactly?

Is it the notion that Jesus knew that Peter did not love him? This is the typical three stokes to Peter and Jesus is proven right.

Is it that Jesus knew that Peter was Satan?

Is it that Peter sought to take Jesus off his God given path?

Is it that Jesus needed a Satanic church?

Is it that God is love and God is Spirit and can be discerned only intuitively through one's spirit?

Therefore if one cannot discern the Spirit of Jesus one cannot be aware of love or love's urgings.

Ar you querying that Jesus had to come to Peter in a physical body, other wise Peter could not discern Jesus where as Paul was able to discern Jesus in His Spirit?

Fact is all of these are clearly confirmed in the KJV N.T.

If you want to ask about each conclusion, one at a time, I can literally provide the KJV N.T. links.

In some "roundabout" way your theory holds some water.

The Catholic Church does allow for "less" than spiritually advanced people to enter heaven.

In confession, we allow for people who "fear" hell, to receive forgiveness for their sins. It would be better were all people motivated by "love" alone, but as that doesn't seem possible, the Church, through the "keys" its been given, meets people where they are at, and hopes that they do advance in grace and wisdom, as they age, or better understand, the Body of Christ's love for them.

I've gone from "fear" to "love" myself and find it to be a worthwhile journey. I very easily and readily stay within the structure of the Catholic Church however. I'm of the belief that true "truth" is more perfectly found in Her walls than anywhere else.

tWINs

[Gurucam]

Originally Posted by bucksplasher

In some "roundabout" way your theory holds some water.

In an even more round about and essentially baseless way your church claim that Peter is not Satan, although Jesus identified him to be Satan.

Seem that Satan got a bad rap when in fact Satan is not at all, as bad as he is made out to be.

Originally Posted by bucksplasher

The Catholic Church does allow for "less" than spiritually advanced people to enter heaven.

In confession, we allow for people who "fear" hell, to receive forgiveness for their sins. It would be better were all people motivated by "love" alone, but as that doesn't seem possible, the Church, through the "keys" its been given, meets people where they are at, and hopes that they do advance in grace and wisdom, as they age, or better understand, the Body of Christ's love for them.

I've gone from "fear" to "love" myself and find it to be a worthwhile journey. I very easily and readily stay within the structure of the Catholic Church however. I'm of the belief that true "truth" is more perfectly found in Her walls than anywhere else.

tWINs

Indeed there may be an avenue where by "less" than spiritually advanced people can enter heaven.

What is meant by 'less' than spiritually advance people? Does such a state exist?

'Less' than spiritually advance people inevitably blasphemy the Spirit.

Fact is people who blasphemy the Spirit were not thrown away. They were sent to Peter so that they might stop their blaspheming ways so that their spirit may be saved in the day of our Lord Jesus (re. 1 Corinthians: 5 verse: 5 and 1 Timothy: 1 verse: 20). The danger or bad thing is that they (i.e. the less than spiritually advanced) tend to dominate the world wide reality and keep the world in a dark age.

I respect your idea. Indeed it cannot be denied that Peter and his church were called to serve Jesus and God.

Indeed your post testifies to your awareness of or about, some Truth and Love.

It is necessary to now confirm Truth in totality, clarity and accuracy. For yet there are many misconceptions. The search for Truth and Love is a bit misplaced if they done within those walls. One must stand alone with the The Spirit. The search for Truth and love are a totally different commission which was committed onto Paul. The interests of the spiritually aware and the spiritually dead cannot be served under same umbrella. The mere presence of ideal, laws, commandments and written scriptures, any where, is a huge stumbling block to spiritually development and coming onto Christ.

To attempt to serve spiritually aware people within Peter's church is a serious transgression. This is to seek to usurp that which was not commissioned to one. That is, to go beyond one's actualization and capacity. One will invariable intellectualize Truth and not intuit Truth.

Fact is only righteousness seeking unaware people (i.e. Satan) can lead and serve the 'less than spiritually developed'. Do not be fooled about this fact. The spiritually developed will invariably leave Peter's church. Only the dead will indeed save or bury their dead. Those who are spiritually aware of Jesus will walk away and not look back.

The seeker of Truth and Love must stand absolutely alone, totally devoid of all conditions, totally devoid of all things Peter in order to awaken to one's own heart or spirit and the Spirit of Jesus within one's own heart. This is the only passage to Truth and love.

Mother Teresa who might be an example of one who you perceive to be spiritually actualized and in Christ does not seem to display that actualization. One in Christ does not seek to serve just everyone and anyone in any jurisdiction, according to "one size fit all". Service that is led by the Spirit of Jesus, as discerned by the spiritually aware, is very precise and individualized. It is never generalized in a sheep herding manner. Sheep herding is for Peter and Co.

Authentic urgings of love (i.e. those from God) arise and are sustained within one's own heart only for very specific people, things and circumstances in God's creation. These urgings of love convey God's precise and individualized will for the person. The ideas that Mother Teresa displayed conform to the commandment "love thy neighbor" which is also misinterpreted to mean love everyone. This is something which came to her through physical hearing and physical reading. Things do not come to those in Christ through that path way. Instructions from God to those in Christ are very precise and individualized. These come to them only intuitively and directly from the Spirit though their own hearts or spirits.

And these instruction often require one to transgress the ideal and laws of Peter and Co. Instruction from God to those in Christ never require one to go forth and serve the masses in a generalized sheep herding manner as Mother Teresa is reputed to have done. This is Peter's Satanic mission. At best it seems that Mother Teresa served Peter & Co and not God. Mother Teresa was informed and led by the love commandment and not the Spirit. Therefore she could be and was no Saint.

In John: 21 verse:17 Jesus ignored Peter's request for validation about love. Instead Jesus told Peter: Feed my sheep . . . . Feed my sheep is a mission befitting the unaware. No offense meant. However people can and will perceive Mother Teresa to be a Saint and they will be totally misguided. A Saint is not led by the Pope. A Saint is led unconditionally by the Spirit of Jesus as discerned within one's own heart or spirit, even if one has to transgress all social, moral and religious ideals and laws including the tenant of Peter & Co.

Soon humans will live freely on earth, with absolute liberty and justification under the guidance of the Spirit. We will be as free and carefree, as the fowls of the sky, with far greater liberty freedom, awareness and understanding of the mysteries of God's kingdom of heaven.

For our edification, Jesus constantly pointed out Peter lack of spiritual awareness.

[glew]

A quote from a post given to me by SerpentDove-

[Mary's New Caregiver John 19 Grace to You] "When Jesus then saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” Then He said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” From that hour the disciple took her into his own household. (Jn 19:26–27).

The only man among the group gathered at the foot of the cross was John himself, the disciple whom Jesus loved (cf. 13:23; 20:2; 21:7, 20 and introduction: “The Authorship of John’s Gospel,” in John 1–11, The MacArthur New Testament Commentary [Chicago: Moody, 2006]). His presence led to an important relationship established by the Lord. When Jesus then saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” Then He said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” Even as He was dying, bearing man’s sin and God’s wrath, Jesus selflessly cared for those whom He loved (cf. 13:1, 34; 15:9, 13). Evidently His earthly father, Joseph, was already dead. The Lord could not commit Mary into the care of His half brothers, the children of Mary and Joseph, since they were not yet believers (7:5). They did not become believers in Jesus until after His resurrection (Acts 1:14; cf. 1 Cor. 15:7, though the James referenced in that verse may be the apostle James). Therefore He entrusted her to John; he became as a son to her in Jesus’ place, and from that hour he took her into his own household. This may seem a very mundane thing to be concerned about in the hour of His greatest sacrifice, but the beauty of the Savior’s love and compassion for His widowed mother, in the midst of His own excruciating pain, reflects His love for His own (cf. John 13:1)." Mary's New Caregiver John 19 Grace to You

This post is addressed to "The MacArthur",

First of all I glew am only interested in facts. Therefore your statement, "Evidently His earthly father, Joseph, was already dead." is inadmissible on at least two counts-

1 You admit that you don't know if Joseph is dead or not.

2 You claim that Joseph was Jesus' earthly father.
"The MacArthur", are you willing to submit a DNA sample to prove that Joseph was indeed Jesus' earthly father. If not then I suggest that you only use facts that you can prove when you are on the witness stand.

[serpentdove]

Originally Posted by glew

[John MacArthur] This post is addressed to "The MacArthur",

First of all I glew am only interested in facts. Therefore your statement, "Evidently His earthly father, Joseph, was already dead." is inadmissible on at least two counts-

1 You admit that you don't know if Joseph is dead or not.

He said: "Evidently His earthly father, Joseph, was already dead."

Originally Posted by glew

2 You claim that Joseph was Jesus' earthly father.
"The MacArthur", are you willing to submit a DNA sample to prove that Joseph was indeed Jesus' earthly father. If not then I suggest that you only use facts that you can prove when you are on the witness stand.

John MacArthur believes in the virgin birth of the Lord Jesus. Joseph raised Jesus as his earthly father. Jn 1:1