[Gurucam]

Recently on T.V. Dr. K.C. Price concurred with Robert Pate.

They both used, Romans: 8 verse: 22 to indicate that Jesus must return in the flesh to redeem our physical bodies.

They quote Romans: 8 verse: 23 of the KJV N.T. which says: And not only they, but ourselves also who have the firstfruit of the Spirit, even we ourselves graon within our selves, waiting for the redemption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Their claim is totally opposed by Romans: 8 verses: 22 to 27 of the KJV N.T.

Romans: 8 verse: 22 (KJV N.T.) says: For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travileth in pain together until now.

2000 odd years ago Paul is saying until now . . . . whole creation groaneth and travileth in pain together.

This statement was delivered by the Spirit through Paul 2000 odd years ago. The words until now confirms the whole creation groaneth and travileth in pain together until 2000 odd years ago.

The next verse confirmed that until 2000 odd years ago, not only the world but those who have the first-fruits of the Spirit were waiting in hope (i.e. waiting for something unseen) for the redemption of their bodies.

This means that those with the first-fruits of the Spirit were given the unseen thing which could redeem their bodies and stop the groaning and travail some 2000 odd years ago (re. Romans: 8 verses: 24 & 25).

'Until now' means up until 2000 odd years ago. This suggest that some unseen thing was provided for the redemption of ur bodies and for the whole creation to stop groaneth and travileth in pain . . . . And there was and is.

Romans: 8 verse: 24 confirms: For we are saved by hope. However hope is not seen, hope is not about anything physically manifested.

The thing hoped for was the return of Jesus but not in the flesh, in the Spirit (i.e. unseen).

And indeed some 2000 odd years ago Jesus returned a second time, in His Spirit. God sent the Spirit of Jesus into the hearts of those under the law so that they might become adopted children of God (re. Galatians: 4 verses: 5 & 6)

This is the 'unseen' hope that was delivered 2000 odd years ago and provided the opportunity for their physical bodies to be redeemed and for the whole creation to be saved from groaneth and travileth in pain.

Then in Romans: 8 verses: 26 & 27 Paul confirmed to these people (2000 odd years ago) how to use the Spirit (of Jesus) which God sent into their hearts so that from as far back as 2000 odd years ago our bodies may be redeemed and the whole creation can stop groaneth and travileth in pain.

Until 2000 odd years ago (re. Romans: 8 verse: 22) those with the first fruits of the Spirit were waiting for the redemption of their physical bodies (re. Romans: 8 verse: 23)

They were waiting in hope. They were waiting for something unseen, i.e. something not physically manifested (re. Romans: 8 verses: 24 & 25).

Then 2000 odd years ago according to this hope (i.e. through a none physical manifestation) Jesus was sent back. Jesus returned the second time to redeem our physical bodies.

2000 odd years ago God sent the Spirit of Jesus into the hearts or spirits of those under the law so that they might become adopted children of God (re. Galatians: 4 verses: 5 & 6).

Therefore Jesus returned, in His Spirit (in accordance with unseen hope) 2000 odd years ago to redeem our physical bodies.

Then 2000 odd years ago, in Romans: 8 verses: 14, 26 & 27, Paul confirmed to those with the first-fruits that by being led into their works by precisely what the Spirit of Jesus has in mind for them to pray for, say and do, as discerned within their own hearts or spirit their physical bodies are redeem and restore and their groaning and travail ceases.

Of course only a few (i.e. the chosen few) catch this message. So most still had and have unredeemed bodies and were groaning and traveling and are still groaning and traveling.

There is no return of Jesus in a physical body to redeem our physical bodies.

Romans: 8 verses: 23 to 25 confirms unequivocally that our physical bodies is redeem and we are saved by hope which is an unseen thing, in this case, the Spirit of Jesus which was delivered up 2000 odd years ago.

These verses confirms that those who are waiting for the return of Jesus in a physical body, to redeem their physical bodies, are misled by false prophets who came in Jesus' name.

They are misled both by how and when. They are erroneously waiting for Jesus to come at some future date in a physical body. Fact is, Jesus has already 'come again' (2000 odd years ago) in His Spirit body.

Are these verses wrong?

If they are wrong, show me without blaspheming the Spirit (of Jesus).

Blasphemy of the Spirit is not, at all, a forgivable sin.

[2COR12:9]

This is how I interpret Romans 8:18-25. Paul is referring to the earth awaiting to be renewed at the end of the age (Revelation 21:1-5, 2 Peter 3:10-11), just as we also await putting on our glorified bodies(1 Corinthians 15:42-49, 1 Corinthians 15:50-57, 2 Corinthians 5:2-5, Philippians 3:20-21, Colossians 3:4, 1 John 3:2).

Romans 8:22 He is saying it has been groaning up till now, ever since the fall of man, nowhere does he imply this has ended now, but has been going on from then till now.

Even in Romans 8:24-25, he states these are things that have not happened, yet but this is what they hope for, and we must now wait patiently. You say he's speaking of Christ's Spirit returning, but I'm pretty sure he's speaking about our bodies being glorified, which has not happened yet.

Originally Posted by Gurucam
Are these verses wrong?

If they are wrong, show me without blaspheming the Spirit (of Jesus).

Blasphemy of the Spirit is not, at all, a forgivable sin.

Is it necessary to post this? Are you trying to intimidate any one who may disagree and wishes to discuss this with you? The verses aren't wrong, but your interpretation of them might be.
Peace.
-Matt

[Gurucam]

Originally Posted by 2COR12:9

This is how I interpret Romans 8:18-25. Paul is referring to the earth awaiting to be renewed at the end of the age (Revelation 21:1-5, 2 Peter 3:10-11), just as we also await putting on our glorified bodies(1 Corinthians 15:42-49, 1 Corinthians 15:50-57, 2 Corinthians 5:2-5, Philippians 3:20-21, Colossians 3:4, 1 John 3:2).

Romans 8:22 He is saying it has been groaning up till now, ever since the fall of man, nowhere does he imply this has ended now, but has been going on from then till now.

Even in Romans 8:24-25, he states these are things that have not happened, yet but this is what they hope for, and we must now wait patiently. You say he's speaking of Christ's Spirit returning, but I'm pretty sure he's speaking about our bodies being glorified, which has not happened yet.

Is it necessary to post this? Are you trying to intimidate any one who may disagree and wishes to discuss this with you? The verses aren't wrong, but your interpretation of them might be.
Peace.
-Matt

Your and my interpretations are inconsequential.

This is the message to the Romans.

Is this not what these verses literally say:

Romans: 8 verse: 22 (KJV N.T.): For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travileth in pain together until now. (this is Paul speaking 2000 odd years ago)

Romans: 8 verse: 23 of the KJV N.T.: And not only they, but ourselves also who have the firstfruit of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within our selves, waiting for the redemption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Doesn't "until now" refers to up until 2000 odd years ago? And then things changed?

2000 odd years ago, Paul confirmed that now the Lord is that Spirit (re. 2 Corinthians: 3 verse: 17)

2000 odd years ago God sent the Spirit of Jesus into the hearts of those under the law so that they might become adopted children of God (re. Galatians: 4 verses: 5 & 6)

2000 odd years ago, in Romans 8 verses: 26 & 27 Paul relates how to be led by the Spirit.

Additionally Romans: 8 verses: 24 & 25 confirms that those people were waiting with hope (waiting on something unseen) to redeem their bodies and to stop their groaning and travail.

Isn't this unseen thing the Spirit of Jesus which was delivered 2000 years ago?

Is it not absolutely clear from these revelations that Jesus returned 2000 odd years ago in His Spirit to redeem our bodies and to stop the whole creation from groaning and traveling?

When one deny the God given mission of this Spirit and project instead, that Jesus is coming in the flesh to do that which this Spirit was sent to do, is this not blasphemy of the Spirit?

Isn't this a most serious sin which will not be forgiven?

Matthews: 12 verse: 31 - Therefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men.


You do not want to be told about blasphemy of the Spirit?

You want to carry on in error and be banished to un-redemption?

All in traditional Christianity are waiting for the return of Jesus in a physical body. They have all rejected that Jesus came already (2000 odd years ago) in His Spirit. They have rejected the Spirit of Jesus which God sent (2000 odd years ago) into the hearts of those under the law so that they might become adopted children of God. They have rejected that Jesus came in His Spirit to redeem their bodies and to stop their groaning and travail.

They have rejected the revelation which confirms that: when they are led into their works by unconditionally obeying precisely what this Spirit (of Jesus) has in mind for them to pray for, say and do as discerned within their own hearts or spirit, their bodies are redeemed and they stop groaning and travailing.

Truth was hid from them.

Is it any wonder that many are called and few make it?

You offered: (Revelation 21:1-5, 2 Peter 3:10-11), just as we also await putting on our glorified bodies(1 Corinthians 15:42-49, 1 Corinthians 15:50-57, 2 Corinthians 5:2-5, Philippians 3:20-21, Colossians 3:4, 1 John 3:2).

I see nothing in these verses which contradict the fact that, 2000 odd years ago, Jesus returned in His Spirit so that when those who have the first-fruit of the Spirit, are led into their works by precisely what His Spirit has in mind for them to pray for, say and do, their bodies are redeemed and their groaning and travailing cease.

[OMEGA]

calrification ?????

Lets here it for Clarification of the Preterist Theory.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Isn't this unseen thing the Spirit of Jesus which was delivered 2000 years ago?

Is it not absolutely clear from these revelations that Jesus returned 2000 odd years ago in His Spirit to redeem our bodies and to stop the whole creation from groaning and traveling?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Wrong again.

Jesus said that he would be sending the spirit .

He did not say that he was the spirit.

All we have is the Mind of Christ

which incorporates the Character that he developed here on Earth.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Colossians]

Unfortunately Pate and Co. don't know what they are talking about. One wonders how these guys make a name for themselves: they obviously have the knack of making themselves appear learned.

Rom 8:23's "redemption of our body", speaks to the claiming back of our spiritual body from the physical realm - the taking back of it by Christ, unto a state where we are clothed with the righteousness of Christ without hindrance or limitation.

So we are told elsewhere: "put ye on the Lord Jesus": our ultimate state speaks to quality with regard to righteousness, not corporeal form.

Romans 8:23 then relates to Rom 8:20, which is also misunderstood by nearly everyone. Here it is:

"For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope"

Most think this is speaking of the supposed fall of man in the garden - that it speaks to man's supposed physical death which was the result of sin.

Man would have died anyway: all physical systems run down - that is part and parcel of their being physical. So those who render this verse to be speaking of physical death as a result of Adam's sin, are barking up the wrong tree.

The verse actually speaks to the fact that we as spiritual creatures were made subject to the vanity that is the physical realm. So v23 then tells us that we shall be redeemed from this vanity by Christ. (To be redeemed simply means to be claimed back.)

Now....the non-believer shall also be non-physical in the next life too, so simply being no longer subject to the vanity of the physical realm, is not what this v23 is merely saying - there is more to it than that.

Specifically, our being redeemed will be for the reason we hope: to be united with Christ, thus v20 tells us we were subjected to the vanity "in hope".

The point is that the reason the vanity will no longer exist is not so that the non-believer will be able to live as a spirit eternally, but because Christ wishes to bring the Bride in her entirety home once and for all, and thus the non-believer will also be no longer subject to the vanity of the physical realm simply because it will no longer exist: his 'release' from it will be by default, but ours by deliberation of God.

Our being redeemed therefore, although not of itself that which will clothe us with the righteousness of Christ, will nevertheless go hand in hand with our being so clothed. The non-believer, in contrast, will face the wrath of God with no longer any abilty to avoid the presence of God by virtue of being in the flesh: his spirit shall rather burn eternally in the presence of the Lamb.

For further reading, see my thread: "The Resurrection", in which I expound 2 Cor 5 and show that we shall not be physical in the afterlife, but spirits.

[Gurucam]

Originally Posted by OMEGA

calrification ?????

Lets here it for Clarification of the Preterist Theory.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Isn't this unseen thing the Spirit of Jesus which was delivered 2000 years ago?

Is it not absolutely clear from these revelations that Jesus returned 2000 odd years ago in His Spirit to redeem our bodies and to stop the whole creation from groaning and traveling?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Wrong again.

Jesus said that he would be sending the spirit .

He did not say that he was the spirit.

All we have is the Mind of Christ

which incorporates the Character that he developed here on Earth.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Galatians: 4 verses: 5 & 6 - God sent the Spirit of Jesus into the hearts of those under the law so that they might become adopted children of God.

In Romans: 8 verses: 26 & 27 Paul says: he that searches the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit.

One's heart is one's spirit or inward man or inner man.

This confirms that the Spirit does not replace one own spirit. This confirms that one's own spirit remains as an entity and within one's own spirit, the Spirit of Jesus/Spirit of Truth can be reached.

The Spirit is something which one discerns and have communion with within one's own heart which is also called one's spirit.

Jesus is not the Spirit. Jesus is the Truth. Jesus' Spirit is the Spirit of Truth. This is something which Jesus possesses.

Jesus is the Truth which can and do posses a spirit called the Spirit of Truth.

Ephesians 3 verse: 16 - . . . to strengthen you with might by his Spirit in the inner man. The 'inner man' is one's spirit or heart. The Spirit is in (i.e. within) your spirit.

Ephesians 3 verse: 17 - . . . That Christ may dwell in your heart. Christ does not replace your heart which is your spirit. Christ dwells in your spirit (as a separate entity) and guide you from within your own spirit in accordance with Romans: 8 verses: 26 & 27.

You said: Jesus said that he would be sending the Spirit of Truth.

Jesus is the Truth so he can say that He is sending the Spirit of Truth (i.e. His own spirit). And He can indeed send His Spirit.

However Jesus will say that He is sending His Spirit, (i.e. the Spirit of Truth) only because this is the will of God. Therefore when God sent the Spirit of Jesus into the hearts of those under the laws this is simply the fulfillment of Jesus promise (to His disciples) to send the Spirit of Truth . . . a promise that was made according to God's will.

Jesus runs God's creation in His Spirit from within the hearts or spirits of spiritually aware people. When spiritually aware people discern precisely what the Spirit of Jesus has in mind for them to pray for, say and do, from within their own hearts or spirits and they are led into their works (physical activities) by this, they are children of God and God's real time will becomes done on earth. The body of Christ functions. Then their bodies are redeemed and they get no sin even when they transgress the Ten Commandments. This has nothing to do with the written scriptures (i.e. the bible), the Ten Commandments, the love commandments and/or canons etc.). This is about transgressing the written scriptures (i.e. the bible), the Ten Commandments, the love commandments and/or canons etc. because one is under grace of God and in Christ.

To deny the above Truth is to blasphemy the Spirit. You are warned.

Know what the wise does? They look not for Jesus in the flesh. For things that are 'seen' are temporal. They have sought Jesus in His Spirit. For things that are not seen are eternal (re. 2 Corinthians: 4 verse: 18).

Jesus in the flesh (i.e. in the seen) is temporal, Jesus in the flesh is gone. Jesus in His Spirit (i.e. in the unseen) is eternal.

Wake up and smell the aroma of Truth before too late will be the cry.

Your foolish tenants are drowning you and keeping your among the very great majority who err and are not chosen, i.e. from among the many called to your misinformed tradition.

According to prophesy of Lord Jesus, for the past 2000 odd years, many were called to your tradition (i.e. traditional Christianity) and the very great majority (i.e. all but a few) did not, do not and will not make it because they err because they do not know or get Truth.

Still think that you know Truth? The most pervading and serious err among the many in traditional Christianity, is the belief that Jesus is still to come in a physical body to redeem their bodies.

They have rejected God offer of the Spirit of Jesus which He sent into their hearts so that their bodies may be redeemed and they might become adopted children of God.

[student x]

Originally Posted by Colossians

Unfortunately Pate and Co. don't know what they are talking about. One wonders how these guys make a name for themselves: they obviously have the knack of making themselves appear learned..........

As did satan

[2COR12:9]

Originally Posted by Gurucam

Your and my interpretations are inconsequential.

This is the message to the Romans.

Is this not what these verses literally say:

Romans: 8 verse: 22 (KJV N.T.): For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travileth in pain together until now. (this is Paul speaking 2000 odd years ago)

Romans: 8 verse: 23 of the KJV N.T.: And not only they, but ourselves also who have the firstfruit of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within our selves, waiting for the redemption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Doesn't "until now" refers to up until 2000 odd years ago? And then things changed?

2000 odd years ago, Paul confirmed that now the Lord is that Spirit (re. 2 Corinthians: 3 verse: 17)

2000 odd years ago God sent the Spirit of Jesus into the hearts of those under the law so that they might become adopted children of God (re. Galatians: 4 verses: 5 & 6)

2000 odd years ago, in Romans 8 verses: 26 & 27 Paul relates how to be led by the Spirit.

Additionally Romans: 8 verses: 24 & 25 confirms that those people were waiting with hope (waiting on something unseen) to redeem their bodies and to stop their groaning and travail.

Isn't this unseen thing the Spirit of Jesus which was delivered 2000 years ago?

Is it not absolutely clear from these revelations that Jesus returned 2000 odd years ago in His Spirit to redeem our bodies and to stop the whole creation from groaning and traveling?

When one deny the God given mission of this Spirit and project instead, that Jesus is coming in the flesh to do that which this Spirit was sent to do, is this not blasphemy of the Spirit?

Isn't this a most serious sin which will not be forgiven?

Matthews: 12 verse: 31 - Therefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men.


You do not want to be told about blasphemy of the Spirit?

You want to carry on in error and be banished to un-redemption?

All in traditional Christianity are waiting for the return of Jesus in a physical body. They have all rejected that Jesus came already (2000 odd years ago) in His Spirit. They have rejected the Spirit of Jesus which God sent (2000 odd years ago) into the hearts of those under the law so that they might become adopted children of God. They have rejected that Jesus came in His Spirit to redeem their bodies and to stop their groaning and travail.

They have rejected the revelation which confirms that: when they are led into their works by unconditionally obeying precisely what this Spirit (of Jesus) has in mind for them to pray for, say and do as discerned within their own hearts or spirit, their bodies are redeemed and they stop groaning and travailing.

Truth was hid from them.

Is it any wonder that many are called and few make it?

You offered: (Revelation 21:1-5, 2 Peter 3:10-11), just as we also await putting on our glorified bodies(1 Corinthians 15:42-49, 1 Corinthians 15:50-57, 2 Corinthians 5:2-5, Philippians 3:20-21, Colossians 3:4, 1 John 3:2).

I see nothing in these verses which contradict the fact that, 2000 odd years ago, Jesus returned in His Spirit so that when those who have the first-fruit of the Spirit, are led into their works by precisely what His Spirit has in mind for them to pray for, say and do, their bodies are redeemed and their groaning and travailing cease.

I don't see why you're trying to make these verses more then they are. It's pretty straightforward that Paul's using the groaning etc.. of the earth to wanting to be made new, synonymous with the believer wanting to also be made new when we die or this all ends.

You know what another way of saying until is? Up to. He's simply saying the earth's been travailing up to now, show me anywhere in those verses it says that it has now ceased. If I say I've been married from 2008 until/up to now, does that mean that my marriage has ended?

Are you trying to say that we are already glorified on earth, because everyday I'm reminded, how much I want to put on my heavenly body, we haven't arrived yet buddy. I gave you scriptural references to explain what he meant and but you ignored them, your only looking to see what you want to see.

Also, no, I don't need you to remind me about blaspheming the Holy Spirit, especially when you seem to be using it to intimidate, not out of empathy.

[Gurucam]

Originally Posted by 2COR12:9

I don't see why you're trying to make these verses more then they are. It's pretty straightforward that Paul's using the groaning etc.. of the earth to wanting to be made new, synonymous with the believer wanting to also be made new when we die or this all ends.

You know what another way of saying until is? Up to. He's simply saying the earth's been travailing up to now, show me anywhere in those verses it says that it has now ceased. If I say I've been married from 2008 until/up to now, does that mean that my marriage has ended?

Are you trying to say that we are already glorified on earth, because everyday I'm reminded, how much I want to put on my heavenly body, we haven't arrived yet buddy. I gave you scriptural references to explain what he meant and but you ignored them, your only looking to see what you want to see.

Also, no, I don't need you to remind me about blaspheming the Holy Spirit, especially when you seem to be using it to intimidate, not out of empathy.

I am not making those verses to be more than they are.

Also I am not trying to say anything.

Simply take the verse literally. Do not add anything and certainly do not leave out anything.

Romans: 8 verse: 22 (KJV N.T.): For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travileth in pain together until now. (this is Paul speaking 2000 odd years ago)

Romans: 8 verse: 23 of the KJV N.T.: And not only they, but ourselves also who have the firstfruit of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within our selves, waiting for the redemption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Doesn't "until now" refers to up until 2000 odd years ago? And then things changed?

2000 odd years ago, Paul confirmed that now the Lord is that Spirit (re. 2 Corinthians: 3 verse: 17)

2000 odd years ago God sent the Spirit of Jesus into the hearts of those under the law so that they might become adopted children of God (re. Galatians: 4 verses: 5 & 6)

2000 odd years ago, in Romans 8 verses: 26 & 27 Paul relates how to be led by the Spirit.

Additionally Romans: 8 verses: 24 & 25 confirms that those people were waiting with hope (waiting on something unseen) to redeem their bodies and to stop their groaning and travail.

Isn't this unseen thing the Spirit of Jesus which was delivered 2000 years ago?

Is it not absolutely clear from these revelations that Jesus returned 2000 odd years ago in His Spirit to redeem our bodies and to stop the whole creation from groaning and traveling?

When one deny the God given mission of this Spirit and project instead, that Jesus is coming in the flesh to do that which this Spirit was sent to do, is this not blasphemy of the Spirit?

Isn't this a most serious sin which will not be forgiven?

Matthews: 12 verse: 31 - Therefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men.


You do not want to be told about blasphemy of the Spirit?

You want to carry on in error and be banished to un-redemption?

Also, no, I don't need you to remind me about blaspheming the Holy Spirit, especially when you seem to be using it to intimidate, not out of empathy.

Forget about me. It matters not that I might simply be an intellectual retard, who is given to quote the KJV N.T. literally. Ignore me and be reminded of the KV N.T. revelation. God chooses the simpliest things to turn the wisdom of man (i.e. 'the wisdom' of Satan/Peter) into foolishness and so actually help the unaware.

The fact is that one must be reminded of Matthews: 12 verse: 31 - Therefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men.

One must be reminded of the above because the very great majority (i.e. all but a few) of those called to Christianity in traditional Christianity are blaspheming the Spirit. They are denying the God given mission of this Spirit and project instead, that Jesus is coming in the flesh to do that which this Spirit was sent to do.

I speak of the fact that Jesus was sent in His Spirit to redeem our bodies so as to stop our groaning and travails and those in traditional Christianity are claiming that Jesus is still to return in the flesh to do that which was give by God for the Spirit to do. That is high blasphemy of the Spirit.

Dr. Price pointed out that most of those of his flock who seek his personal council have the same problem. They all have unredeemed bodies and are still groaning and travailing. However Dr. price totality miss that by embracing the Spirit and being led by the Spirit those people can have redeemed bodies and be delivered from groaning and travail. Dr. Price has confirmed to those people and all his flock that they have to wait until Jesus return in his physical body to redeem their bodies and so to deliver them from groaning and travail. This is blasphemy of the Spirit, big time. Fact is. 2000 years ago the Spirit of Jesus was appointed to the God given task of redeeming our physical body and delivering us for groaning and travail.

Seems that those in Peter's church would respond to Truth only through fear, so there you go. Revelation in the KJV N.T. confirm that you are blaspheming the Spirit and the consequence is absolute doom. If you 'gone through' then others must be informed and learn from your mistakes.

Every one must know: Matthews: 12 verse: 31 - Therefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men. I am a God given advocate for the Spirit and Truth.

You still do not see the need for Truth to be delivered and known accurately, totally and clearly?

People in traditional Christianity are under the prophesy of Jesus - many are called and few chosen. They are under many false prophets will come in Jesus' name and misguide many. They are under those who do not know Truth err. They erroneously believe that Christians are under laws, commandments, canons, the written scriptures, all of which come to them through physical hearing and physical reading. They are not aware that Christians are informed and led unconditionally and only by the mind of the Spirit as discerned intuitively within their own hearts or spirit.

Now the likes of you, Dr. Price and Robert Pate have them erroneously waiting for the return of Jesus in the flesh to redeem their physical bodies and deliver them from groaning and travail. You all are simply added to their permanent doom and demise with your (2000 odd, year old) made up misinformation.

Let others, who may still have a chance, wake up and smell the aroma of Truth.

Do not simply parrot things that Peter & Co tell you. Do not simply be a mouth piece for Peter and Co.

Learn to confess with you mouth only those thing which you know in your own heart.

Drop Peter & Co. and all others and seek out your self. Seek ye first the kingdom of heaven within your own heart and All things will be added.

If you can quote the clear revelation from the K.J.V. N.T. which supports any belief that you hold please provide them. Do not simply parrot things.

Christians do not parrot things which others, like Peter, tell them, they get all their knowledge and guidance directly from the Spirit of Jesus, intuitively through their own heart or spirit.

[2COR12:9]

Originally Posted by Gurucam

You still do not see the need for Truth to be delivered and known accurately, totally and clearly?

Don't put words in my mouth, I never said that.

Originally Posted by Gurucam

Christians do not parrot things which others, like Peter, tell them, they get all their knowledge and guidance directly from the Spirit of Jesus, intuitively through their own heart or spirit.

I was only responding to what you were "parroting". We obviously disagree on what those scriptures were saying. So it goes. Peace bro.

[Gurucam]

Originally Posted by 2COR12:9

Don't put words in my mouth, I never said that.
I was only responding to what you were "parroting". We obviously disagree on what those scriptures were saying. So it goes. Peace bro.

This is how it is done:

Simply present in your words what you perceive to be the message in Romans: 8 verses: 22 to 27 of the KJV N.T. without adding to leaving out any words.

There are two important words (i.e. "until now") in Romans: 8 verse: 22 which most people in traditional Christianity seem to conveniently leave out.

They also conveniently ignore "hope that is seen is not hope, for what a man seeth, why does he yet hope for" in Romans: 8 verses: 24 & 25.

You, please do not leave out or ignore these, especially the last one for that would be blasphemy of the Spirit. You will note that the Spirit is plainly and prominently mentioned in Romans: 8 verse: 26. Therefore, as plain as day, these revelations are about The Spirit . . . i.e. the Big One, who if you blasphemy, you will not be forgiven, ever.

This is not hidden mystery. This is plainly revealed Truth, that must not be perverted or corrupted.

2000 odd years ago, Paul did not find it necessary to hide this Truth. The language is simple and clear. No interpretation is required or necessary.

If you or Peter or anyone else choose to pervert or corrupt this Truth, you do so on your own (pinch of salt and/or Grace cannot be your cover).

Grace would not suggest that you look at things which are seen and temporal, like a physical Jesus. Grace will suggest that you look at things which are not seen and eternal, like the Spirit of Jesus.

A pinch of salt cannot be used to have followers look at things which are seen and temporal, like a physical Jesus instead of at things which are not seen and eternal, like the Spirit of Jesus . . . only Satan (who wants to relegate Paul and His commission) will do that.

[2COR12:9]

Originally Posted by Gurucam

[color="Blue"]

This is how it is done:

Simply present in your words what you perceive to be the message in Romans: 8 verses: 22 to 27 of the KJV N.T. without adding to leaving out any words.

There are two important words (i.e. "until now") in Romans: 8 verse: 22 which most people in traditional Christianity seem to conveniently leave out.

They also conveniently ignore "hope that is seen is not hope, for what a man seeth, why does he yet hope for" in Romans: 8 verses: 24 & 25.

Hey man, listen to me I already addressed this. It's a matter of interpretation, you see it one way, I another. Your view of until is that it has now ceased, my view is that it's saying up to now from when it began, without adding in cessation. You're adding that in through your interpretation. Same with v.24-25 to me it's saying it hasn't happened yet, that's why we still hope for it; because if it had happened, how can we hope for something we can plainly see having been done already!

I can't conform no matter how hard you try to press me into the mold of how you see these passages, sorry. Because I interpret it to say this, is not blaspheming the Holy Spirit either. I would be careful on how readily you hand out everlasting Judgement to brothers.

Don't bother responding, I've made my view of this clear. Call me damned if you like, your condemnation doesn't stick. I know where I stand in Christ, and by the empowering of the Holy Spirit, who guides my ways. Peace

[Gurucam]

Originally Posted by 2COR12:9

Hey man, listen to me I already addressed this. It's a matter of interpretation, you see it one way, I another. Your view of until is that it has now ceased, my view is that it's saying up to now from when it began, without adding in cessation. You're adding that in through your interpretation. Same with v.24-25 to me it's saying it hasn't happened yet, that's why we still hope for it; because if it had happened, how can we hope for something we can plainly see having been done already!

I can't conform no matter how hard you try to press me into the mold of how you see these passages, sorry. Because I interpret it to say this, is not blaspheming the Holy Spirit either. I would be careful on how readily you hand out everlasting Judgement to brothers.

Don't bother responding, I've made my view of this clear. Call me damned if you like, your condemnation doesn't stick. I know where I stand in Christ, and by the empowering of the Holy Spirit, who guides my ways. Peace

This is how it is done:

Simply present in your words what you perceive to be the message in Romans: 8 verses: 22 to 27 of the KJV N.T. without adding to leaving out any words.

Do this word by word. Use no summary. Summaries are for your use only. Show how you came to that summary when these verses confirm something totally different.

Your refusal to offer your word by word perception of the message in Romans: 8 verses: 22 to 27 of the KJV N.T. without adding to leaving out any words is very informative. This reeks of antics of a lemon used car sales man.

Come on, let your claim face scrutiny.

You try to run and hide from making an actual word by word rendition of Romans: 8 verses: 22 to 27 of the KJV N.T. because you know that your claim cannot stand up to these actual revelations in the KJV N.T.

You cannot be teaching your own ideas and calling it Christian.

Also you are free to blasphemy the Spirit. Seem that not even God can or will stop you. He will simply never forgive you and send you, 'you know where'.

However it is an even graver sin to lead others to blasphemy the Spirit.

I have quoted KJV N.T. revelations, show that those are wrong and that you are right, please.

This is it. Straight and plain. This is what Paul said 2000 odd years ago. Simply insert your 'translation' of these verses, into modern English, under each verse: Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. (you write here) Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body. (you write here) Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? (you write here) Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it]. (you write here) Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. (you write here) Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God. (you write here) .

People are following you. Simply want to make sure that they are not following you into blasphemy of the Spirit and unforgivable sin. You know what is unforgivable sin, don't you? Eternal damnation, isn't it?

Matthews: 12 verse: 31 - Therefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men. This revelation was given by God to protect Paul and his commission from Satanic Peter & Co.

The message here is absolutely clear. It say that you, Peter, Peter's descendants and others may blasphemy all other things and claim it was grace or the use of a pinch of salt, in action. However you all have no authority (i.e. absolute no right) to blasphemy the Spirit which is the basis of Paul's commission and not yours and Peter's commission.

You quoted 'grace' and 'pinch of salt' as justification to corrupt this revelation. Clearly you are way out of line and in very deep trouble. Stand alone, do not seek to drag others down with you.

If Joe's teacher says: You have been stupid until now. It is obvious that something has come about to change Joe's stupidity which existed before now. In the context of the 2000 odd year old verses above the thing which came to chance things is the Spirit. This is irrevocably confirmed by Paul elsewhere. Also 2000 odd years ago, Paul confirmed, in 2 Corinthians: 3 verse: 17 - now the Lord is that Spirit (of Jesus).

So now you have to corrupt another revelation, 2 Corinthians: 3 verse: 17, in order to uphold your belief. You have to blasphemy the Spirit more.

[Gurucam]

Originally Posted by OMEGA

calrification ?????

Lets here it for Clarification of the Preterist Theory.
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Isn't this unseen thing the Spirit of Jesus which was delivered 2000 years ago?

Is it not absolutely clear from these revelations that Jesus returned 2000 odd years ago in His Spirit to redeem our bodies and to stop the whole creation from groaning and traveling?
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Wrong again.

Thanks but no thanks, for all your private messages seeking to persuade me to your and Peter's Satanic ways of thinking.

One under grace is given only to deliver Truth like Paul, i.e. totally, accurately and clearly, just as they are received from the Spirit within one's own heart or spirit.

This is not required of Peter & Co. This is not within Peter's & Co. capacity. Peter and Co. cannot receive any thing directly and intuitively from the Spirit of Jesus through their individual hearts or spirit. They receive and stand only on things which Jesus delivered to them only though physically spoken and physically written words. They are Satan which is to say they are 'dead within'.

Peter and Co. may have other gifts (like healing and the gift to sing, etc), fake or real, I know not. However only Paul has the truly Royal Gift of the Spirit, to know Truth intuitively and directly from the Spirit of Truth. Peter & Co. and their church have serious and overwhelming shortcomings. They are given only to management the unaware. They are not given to know Truth and/or deliver Truth. Peter may be given actualization and privileged to fool up their charges (and only their charges) in order to keep them under supplication of not blaspheming the Spirit. Blasphemy of the Spirit is an unforgivable sin. Peter & Co. is not given to know Truth and/or deliver Truth.

To know and deliver Truth is Paul's commission.

Peter's commission is well confirmed in the KJV NT. (of course Peter has perverted his Jesus given mission). People are sent to Peter/Satan to stop their blaspheming ways so that their spirits may be saved in the day of our Lord Jesus. This is their mission plain and simple. Those in Peter's church know nothing about the Spirit, they blasphemy the Spirit routinely, like you. Peter's church is on the same level of the Old system under the law. Peter church is the schoolmaster to the unaware, to keep them managed until they become spiritually aware and in Christ. As a member of Peter's church this is your circumstance. Like attract like. Peter's church was established to draw you and the likes of you, this is how it works. If you delight in laws, commandments, canons and physically written and physically spoken scriptures you will delight in and be absolutely loyal to, Peter's Satanic church.

People in Paul's commission are absolutely different. They have embraced the Spirit and they are led by the Spirit, they do not blasphemy the Spirit. They are over laws, commandments, canons and physically written and physically spoken scriptures, although this would not be discernible to many. The best that can happen to you in Peter's church is that you may be awakened after you die. You will not rise to be like an angel in heaven. You will remain the lower realms of earth. You will not have a physical presence on earth when God's kingdom of heaven descends to earth.

Only those who have severed their ties with Peter & Co. and have embraced Paul's commission will have a physical presence on earth when God's kingdom of heaven descend here and rules here.

However, although time is limited and heaven can descend here in a flash (i.e. in the twinkling of an eyes), you can be severed from Satanic Peter and delivered onto Paul's commission. That is, for you own salvation and deliverance. This post, right here, is your chance. This is your test. This is your entry.

You can honor and recognize the Spirit of Jesus by honestly discerning and recognizing the mission of the Spirit in these revelations.

Show God and everyone that you can stand on your own like a man, without Satanic Peter.

This will pre-qualify you for communion with the Spirit. That is, this will qualify you for Paul's commission and you will really and truly leave Peter in the dust. Time is indeed short for you. This is how you start:

Would you be forthright enough to answer the following and not play God:

This is it. Straight and plain. This is what Paul said 2000 odd years ago. Simply insert your 'translation' of these verses, into modern English, under each verse: Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. (you write here) Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body. (you write here) Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? (you write here) Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it]. (you write here) Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. (you write here) Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God. (you write here) .

An honest answer to these verses, will deliver you from bondage under Satanic Peter and Co.

. . . . and I am not coming to you behind the scenes. This is up front and in plain sight.

I urge you to be very afraid of blasphemy of the Spirit and Paul's commission. This is not 2000 odd years ago. Now, the Spirit rules supreme on earth. Now you and Peter & Co. are powerless against the Spirit. It is the time of Paul & Company. Peter & Co. are being laid to rest.

There are 36 arts (I think). They all come through Spiritual actualization. Now, as never before, many are all being celebrated in reality T.V. shows.

Now those who are Spiritually gifted with the art (and science) of cooking, fashion designing, home design and construction, singing, natural health remedies, delivering authentic Truth, handicraft, painting, vehicle renewing, etc. are being brought to full recognition in the world. This is the natural and spontaneous move towards anchoring God's kingdom of heaven on earth. This is achieved when those with Gifts of the Spirit are recognized and dominate their field on earth. Now intellectual certification will be curses onto their holders. Recently even Dr. Price has messed up on T.V.. Intellectual certification is 'a la Peter's appraoch'. Intuitive actualization through Gift of the Spirit is 'a la Paul's approach'. Everywhere, Peter and his appraoch is fading to give way to Paul and his appraoch.

Now without inherent Gifts of the Spirits, you too will fade into oblivion. Gift of the Spirit are empowered by the Spirit as intuitively discerned within one's own heart or spirit.

Denying and/or blaspheming the Spirit is a serious curse.

The days of the intellectual are numbered. When intellectual are thrown out, Peter goes with them to make way for intuits of Paul's styling. Satan is the name given to intellectuals, they are of man's empowerment. Intuits are of God or are of God's empowerment.

If you and 2COR12:9 do not want to be scared to death (i.e. scared of any kind of death including eternal death and eternal damnation) then, do not blasphemy the Spirit.

Stand alone and apart and reaffirm, loud and clear, the God given mission of the Spirit of Jesus as confirmed in Romans: 22 to 27 above.

Drop that hot and hellish potato which you are holding for Peter and Co.

Let us hear from you guys.