[WizardofOz]

elisabeth e thinks that abortion and genocide were a part of God's plan, that abortions are the will of god and that Hitler was acting according to god's plan.

Originally Posted by dave3712

Elizabeth is correct.

No offense, but

God does not will abortion or the Holocaust.

[ttruscott]

Originally Posted by WizardofOz

God has foreknowledge that a person will wind up a killer, therefore he is responsible for the people killed.

Does anyone else agree with this?

Not me...His foreknowledge means forelove (because those HE foreknew were foreordained to heaven and not all go to heaven), and stems from our true free will decision to accept HIS purpose for our creation. imho

peace, Ted

[Desert Reign]

Originally Posted by WizardofOz

God has foreknowledge that a person will wind up a killer, therefore he is responsible for the people killed.

Does anyone else agree with this?

I agree that anyone who knows of an impending disaster and has the power to prevent it, all other things being equal, is responsible for the outcome of the disaster.

Note my carefully worded statement. The concept of foreknowledge (i.e. absolute knowledge of the future) is illogical. If a person has absolute foreknowledge of the future, then he has no power to ensure that the future does not happen according to that foreknowledge. If you have no power to affect the future, then you have no responsibility either.

There is another thing in the way we perceive events: I can say exactly the same thing about any kind of event. I can say that I have power over my actions, so when I choose to drink a cup of coffee in the morning, I am responsible for that action. When I see some random person doing their shopping, I have power to walk up to them and say hello or to perform any other action that prevents them from buying baked beans. So if I don't do that, I bear the responsibility for the fact that they bought baked beans.

You may say that these examples are meaningless but in form they are the same type of action as preventing a disaster. But we don't usually speak of responsibility in those terms because we are selective in our choice of examples. Nobody cares about buying baked beans or drinking coffee and it is precisely because nobody cares about them that the issue of responsibility doesn't arise. It so happens that people care about killing and so we inconsistently introduce responsibility into the equation. But fundamentally, we are responsible for everything we do or reasonably fail to do. The freedom of choice is the origin of morality, the only reason why people often don't see this (and hence Euthyphro type questions perennially arising) is because they are blind to the fact that they eat baked beans but not blind to the fact that someone is a killer.

[dave3712]

Originally Posted by WizardofOz

elisabeth e thinks that abortion and genocide were a part of God's plan, that abortions are the will of god and that Hitler was acting according to god's plan.

No offense, but

God does not will abortion or the Holocaust.

Sez you...

It is apparent that God did.

The facts of life speak for themselves as we review history and see The Truth.


John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the truth, the way, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


What seem to be the messager of Christ is that man can face the Truth and stop these things should he so desire.God made men who are sexually promiscuous Gentile and he also made the sexually prudent patriarchs, like the muslims of today.

But Christ said we can accept the Truth and be neither a Gentile nor a Patriarch, but a prudent wise informed Christian who does need abortions nor Holocausts.

[dave3712]

Originally Posted by Desert Reign

Originally Posted by WizardofOz
God has foreknowledge that a person will wind up a killer, therefore he is responsible for the people killed.

Does anyone else agree with this?


/////

I agree that anyone who knows of an impending disaster and has the power to prevent it, all other things being equal, is responsible for the outcome of the disaster.

God is the force behind Reality which unfolds to give birth to the Truth.
The Truth is that this God will let creatures do what they will, yet if they do not adopt nehaviors which lead to adaption to His future for them, they will become extinct in the next environment to unfold.

All men went Extinxt except Noah.
If abortions and holocaust are conducive or deterimental to evelasting life of our species, we shall discover one way or the other to be true, unless we change in time.

[Desert Reign]

Originally Posted by dave3712

God is the force behind Reality which unfolds to give birth to the Truth.
The Truth is that this God will let creatures do what they will, yet if they do not adopt nehaviors which lead to adaption to His future for them, they will become extinct in the next environment to unfold.

All men went Extinxt except Noah.
If abortions and holocaust are conducive or deterimental to evelasting life of our species, we shall discover one way or the other to be true, unless we change in time.

You seem to be speaking of an evolutionary metaphor. Extinction of non-adapting species and propagation of adapting ones. However, I don't believe the Bible lets us view spirituality like that. God is a defender of the weak. What you are saying may or may not be true, but the metaphor at least seems to give an unbiblical impression. According to evolutionary theory, species just happen by chance to be adaptive or not whilst in God's eyes, it is those who are deliberately wicked that will be punished.

Your second statement about Noah, is quite false because according to the Bible 8 persons survived the flood. It is easy to prophecy disaster because you probably won't be around when it happens or doesn't happen.

So your statement doesn't make much sense (to me at least). You seem to be saying "A or B will happen unless we change". But you don't say what will happen if we don't change. It sounds a bit like a veiled threat that unless we repent we won't discover whether or not the holocaust was a good thing. Surely we can make up our own mind about that right now? I have already made my mind up about it, along with countless millions of others who declare that it was an evil wicked thing. The ones who say that it was a good thing are nothing but Jew haters. What is your opinion, are you just going to sit on the fence and say "I don't know, all will be revealed one day"? Doesn't that sound to a normal person like an avoidance of responsibility or a sitting back and washing of one's hands while the wicked reign unchecked?

[dave3712]

Originally Posted by Desert Reign

You seem to be speaking of an evolutionary metaphor. Extinction of non-adapting species and propagation of adapting ones. However, I don't believe the Bible lets us view spirituality like that. God is a defender of the weak. What you are saying may or may not be true, but the metaphor at least seems to give an unbiblical impression. According to evolutionary theory, species just happen by chance to be adaptive or not whilst in God's eyes, it is those who are deliberately wicked that will be punished.

Your second statement about Noah, is quite false because according to the Bible 8 persons survived the flood. It is easy to prophecy disaster because you probably won't be around when it happens or doesn't happen.

So your statement doesn't make much sense (to me at least). You seem to be saying "A or B will happen unless we change". But you don't say what will happen if we don't change. It sounds a bit like a veiled threat that unless we repent we won't discover whether or not the holocaust was a good thing. Surely we can make up our own mind about that right now? I have already made my mind up about it, along with countless millions of others who declare that it was an evil wicked thing. The ones who say that it was a good thing are nothing but Jew haters. What is your opinion, are you just going to sit on the fence and say "I don't know, all will be revealed one day"? Doesn't that sound to a normal person like an avoidance of responsibility or a sitting back and washing of one's hands while the wicked reign unchecked?

Hmmm...

... "the knowledge of good and evil"... is something I would avoid in our discussion.

I would perfer to examine whether things like the Holocaust were part of the plan of God.
I would recommend searching the scriptures for passages which might shed light on such a horrendous event as the Holocaust, the worst experience of the very people of The Book, the choosen people.

Then I would meditate upon that for a longwhile:



forinstance,...

Gen. 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him, (an uncastrated male sheep), a “ram,” (also, figuratively, [ayil: the political chiefs]; symbolic of the European Jewish rabbi), caught in a thicket (of the Nazi persecution), by his horns, (or, his power: [symbolic Dictionary]):
and Abraham, (in analogy to God), went and took, (in place of the lamb of his only son, Isaac), the “ram, ” (the Jewish people and leadership in Europe of the 20th century to come), and offered him, (as a Burnt Offering, the sin offering, the Jewish people themselves: [Exodus 4:22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, “Thus says the Lord, ‘Israel is My son, my first born.’”]), up (in holocaust) for a burnt offering (in the crematoriums of WWII, the Burnt Offering of Israel, the chosen son of God in the stead of (Isaac), his (only) son, (in analogy, as was Christ offered for their salvation).

[WizardofOz]

God does not will abortion or the Holocaust.

Originally Posted by dave3712

Sez you...

It is apparent that God did.

Sez you.

Originally Posted by dave3712

Gen. 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him, (an uncastrated male sheep), a “ram,” (also, figuratively, [ayil: the political chiefs]; symbolic of the European Jewish rabbi), caught in a thicket (of the Nazi persecution), by his horns, (or, his power: [symbolic Dictionary]):
and Abraham, (in analogy to God), went and took, (in place of the lamb of his only son, Isaac), the “ram, ” (the Jewish people and leadership in Europe of the 20th century to come), and offered him, (as a Burnt Offering, the sin offering, the Jewish people themselves: [Exodus 4:22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, “Thus says the Lord, ‘Israel is My son, my first born.’”]), up (in holocaust) for a burnt offering (in the crematoriums of WWII, the Burnt Offering of Israel, the chosen son of God in the stead of (Isaac), his (only) son, (in analogy, as was Christ offered for their salvation).

You can stretch scripture to say just about anything you want.

[dave3712]

Originally Posted by WizardofOz

God does not will abortion or the Holocaust.

Sez you.

You can stretch scripture to say just about anything you want.

One can only interpet what one understands the scripture to mean, and all of the present major mainstrem Christian Churches do so, in difference to one another.

The bracketed explanations in the verse I brought to your attention is one way of looking at the meaning.

But what always needs be done in these cases of interpretation is to find other supporting scripture elsewhere:



Rev. 11:7 And when they, (the House of Jacob and the house of Judah, the two witnesses), shall have finished their testimony (against their own suffering messiah), the (seven headed) beast (of Western civilization) that (had) ascendeth out of the bottomless pit (in The Renaissance) shall make (secular) war against them, (these Jews of the diaspora), and shall overcome them (in 1942), and kill them (with gas and starvation and brutalities).

Rev. 11:8 And, (the House of Jacob and the house of Judah), their dead bodies shall lie in the street (of Nazi Paganism) of the great city (which is the tenth horn of Western Civilization), which spiritually (in its philosophical outlook) is called Sodom, (i.e.; a place practicing pagan sexual license and libidinal excess) and (that ancient place of Jew trust in the shadow of) Egypt, (the time of their confusion: [Isa. 30:2-3]: Egypt, the land of both their beloved Joseph and also, their slavery), where, (in their blindness of scriptural truth) also our Lord was crucified (among them in 32 AD).

[Desert Reign]

Originally Posted by dave3712

I would perfer to examine whether things like the Holocaust were part of the plan of God.

I see no need to dwell on the holocaust in this way. It is disrespectful to those who suffered there and to their friends and relatives. I think you have an unhealthy craving for talking about disaster and seeing disaster everywhere and adding you own disaster intrerpretations of scripture. Why don't you learn to play chess or start a stamp collection - it's a lot less depressing for you and for others?

[dave3712]

Originally Posted by Desert Reign

I see no need to dwell on the holocaust in this way. It is disrespectful to those who suffered there and to their friends and relatives. I think you have an unhealthy craving for talking about disaster and seeing disaster everywhere and adding you own disaster intrerpretations of scripture. Why don't you learn to play chess or start a stamp collection - it's a lot less depressing for you and for others?

I agree that we need not dwell on this, so after i have enlightened you this once, please do not raise the issue again.

The study of the Bible is called Theology and that requires the dirty job of searching for some hint in scripture that explains and mentions the Holocaust, which if those days had been allowed to continue, not one of the very people of the Book would be here today.
So, this once, add these other verses from revelation and ponder upon them in silence and without responding to me:


Rev. 11:9 And they of the (the gentile) people and kindreds and tongues (in the lands of the Jewish dispersion, from the time of the abomination of the Dome of the Rock in 688AD until 1948, i.e., 1260 years) among them, (during the Diaspora), and nations (both) shall see their dead bodies (in Concentration Camps) three days (of years) and an half, (1942-1945), and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves (but disposed of in the Crematoriums).


Rev. 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth, (in Nazi Western Europe), shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send (supposed Christian seasonal) gifts one to another; because these two prophets, (the holy people of the book), tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Rev. 11:11 And after (the Holocaust), three and an half days (of years), the Spirit of life from God entered into them, (the House of Jacob and the House of Judah), and they stood upon their feet (in the land Promised); and great fear fell upon them (in Islam) which saw them, (the prophecy of the Fig Tree, blooming, Hosea 9:10, was fulfilled: [Matt 24:32].

Rev. 11:12 And (the survivors), they (collectively) heard (the commands of Zionism), a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither (to the prophecy fulfilled, where all Nations can see the Jew returned to the Holy Land once again.).
And they ascended up to heaven (by complying with the voice, gathering themselves together in this Zionism) in a cloud (of peoples from Western Europe and all the world); and their enemies (especially in Palestinia) beheld them.

Rev. 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, (i.e.; Israeli Statehood), and the tenth part of the city, (that first small piece of the Promised Land), fell (to the returning Jews), and in the earthquake (of their in-gathering) were slain of (Muslim) men, seven thousand:
and the remnant (Islamic armies) were affrighted, and (all the Judaeo-Christian world) gave glory to the God of heaven (that prophecy of Daniel, 12:11-12, had been fulfilled as Christ had acknowledged and opposed the Maccabean interpretations).