Exclusively Christian TheologyThis forum is exclusively for those who consider themselves Christian and consider the Bible to be the inspired word of God.
Slogan/motto:
I know a lot of fancy dancers
People who can glide you on a floor
They move so smooth but have no answers
When you ask "Why'd you come here for?"
~ Cat Stevens
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June 23rd, 2012, 04:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nang
The old Latin word "offero" means to "announce or proclaim."
The gospel is proclaimed ("offero"), as divinely objective truth presented to the world . . . but the gospel is NOT put forth as theory that only has value if it is subjectively "accepted."
Nang
Hmmm, when was it proclaimed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by beloved57
The bible no where states that Eternal Life is an offer. Its an Promise in fact to a certain people .
Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
1 Jn 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
Those who teach that eteral life is a offer are liars !
It is proclaimed AND promised to some folk before the world began and some ask how they are chosen?
Quote:
Originally Posted by genuineoriginal
Do you know the criteria God uses to determine who will be chosen?
Do we think that if HE told us how / why HE chose some and not others it would negate one of HIS attributes?
And again, just to be clear:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nang
The gift has to be purposefully proclaimed and revealed before it is given.
Nang
As to when, maybe Colossians can help:
Colossians 1:23
if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
Christ was chosen and we were chosen in HIM before the creation of the world...
1 Peter 1:20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
Ephesians 1:4
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
..probably at the same time, eh? And the only reason we don't accept that Col:1:23 This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, (or: "in all creation"), is also at the same time is that this understanding / interpretation of this doctrine was to be kept secret until the end times, allowing many other interpretations to grow into the authority of being long held.
In Colossians 1:23, proclaimed is preached in the imperfect tense (if I read my Thayers correctly) denoting continuous, ongoing or repeated action in the past.
At http://bible.cc/colossians/1-23.htm it is easy to see that none of the commentators agree on the meaning of this phrase "to every creature" except in what it DOES NOT OR CANNOT MEAN, ie that everyone heard it at the same time when the promise was offered as part of the election package to those who would accept HIS purpose for their lives in the spirit world before the creation of the physical universe.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary: (ibid) "By "was preached," he (Paul) means not merely "is being preached," but has been actually, as an accomplished fact, preached." which puts an end to the created on earth speculation that an imperfect was preached can be fulfilled in the future.
And so, genuineoriginal, here is what I know about GOD's reasons for choosing some and not others:
As part of the full knowledge neccessary for a free will decision to be a true decision and not just a guess, GOD explained that HIS plan was to elect all who accepted HIS purpose for their life to heaven which also put them under the gospel promise of salvation if they should ever choose to become defiled, depraved sinners after they became elect.
Once all of creation was separated into those who accepted HIS purpose for their creation and those who reject HIS purpose, He elected / chose those who accepted HIS plan and left those who rejected HIM to their forewarned end.
When He called HIS elect to come out from among the reprobate so all sinners could be damned, some of HIS elect chose to rebel believing that this sentence was not righteous but too harsh and time should be given to the eternally reprobate to repent.
These rebellious elect immediately became depraved sinners, enslaved to sin, so unable to save themselves. In consequence, GOD postponed the damnation of all sinners to fulfill HIS promise of election to them that HE would never damn them but see them into heaven as HIS gospel promise foretold.
and, to fulfill the gospel of salvation for elect sinners in Christ, HE created the physical universe in front of us all and every knee did bow and every voice did sing praise to this display of HIS Divinity and power (as per Romans 1:20) and He started to send HIS sinful elect to earth to be redeemed in Christ by the gift of HIS gospel and sanctified by the Holy Spirit until we are brought back to our first true free will choice to fulfill HIS plan for our creation.
SO, GOD's choice of some and not others was based upon HIM giving the free gift of election and the gospel promise of salvation to all who chose to accept HIS purpose for their creation by a true (ie with full knowledge of all the consequences) free will (ie totally uncoerced or constrained in any way), decison.
Peace, Ted
Wheat are NOT reborn tares !!!
Matt 13:36-43 good seed are sown by the Son of man tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil and, as per
Matthew 15:13 …Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up!
Location: On a sea of glass mixed with fire in front of a throne.
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Slogan/motto:
Overcome by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of your testimony; and love not your life unto death.
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June 23rd, 2012, 10:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttruscott
Do we think that if HE told us how / why HE chose some and not others it would negate one of HIS attributes?
God gives salvation when He decides to grant it as a gift to to those that have found favor in His eyes.
God has been very clear about what we can do to find favor in His eyes, and He has been even more clear about what we do that causes us to lose favor in His eyes.
Which of God's real attributes do you think is negated by man finding favor in God's eyes and God choosing to grant eternal life because of that?
Slogan/motto:
I know a lot of fancy dancers
People who can glide you on a floor
They move so smooth but have no answers
When you ask "Why'd you come here for?"
~ Cat Stevens
Reputation:
June 24th, 2012, 07:56 PM
First off, I am not going to ask you to trace the pattern of your thoughts between
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttruscott
Do we think that if HE told us how / why HE chose some and not others it would negate one of HIS attributes?
and your post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by genuineoriginal
God gives salvation when He decides to grant it as a gift to to those that have found favor in His eyes.
God has been very clear about what we can do to find favor in His eyes, and He has been even more clear about what we do that causes us to lose favor in His eyes.
Which of God's real attributes do you think is negated by man finding favor in God's eyes and God choosing to grant eternal life because of that?
because it must be a doozy!
So ignoring that and to answer your query:
Which of God's real attributes do you think is negated by man finding favor in God's eyes and God choosing to grant eternal life because of that?
Why, ab-so-lutely NONE!
What in my post made you think different?
Now, you sed:
Quote:
God has been very clear about what we can do to find favor in His eyes, and He has been even more clear about what we do that causes us to lose favor in His eyes.
since I've responded so quickly and clearly, may I ask:
what can we do to find favor in His eyes, in your estimation?
I say it is by choosing in a true free will situation (I know, I know, they are few and far and hard to find but hey, it is my estimation)
to accept GOD's purpose for our creation. Period. Well, that gets you into the elect church but if you then sinned, and find yourself on earth, I suggest you go for repentance.
Got a trump for that?
Peace, Ted
Wheat are NOT reborn tares !!!
Matt 13:36-43 good seed are sown by the Son of man tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil and, as per
Matthew 15:13 …Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up!
I believe God is looking for the very best people to fill His Kingdom based on how much love they have for Him as demonstrated by their faithfulness in this life. This is the only explanation I have found that reconciles all the different passages in the New Testament.
I believe this as well, that faithfulness is the continuing dynamic God looks for in the heart as that which pleases him.
And whether we grow or wither in our faith is up to us as we exercise our free will to either draw closer to God or drift from him.
Also, the eternal life brought by salvation begins at conversion. It is the life of God, not just living forever. We are to become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4).
Salvation, then, is that event at which we accept Christ, we are set free from our bondage to sin, and begin living the new, eternal life of the kingdom of God.
Whether we continue and grow in that life is up to us. If we faithfully follow Christ and "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" (Phillipians 2:12) we can be assured of God welcoming us into eternity. If, however, we fall away and make shipwreck of our faith, we cannot claim such an assurance.
Living by faith is the key, both for Christians and non-Christians.
It is proclaimed AND promised to some folk before the world began
Thats Correct. It is never a offer !
Rom 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Slogan/motto:
I know a lot of fancy dancers
People who can glide you on a floor
They move so smooth but have no answers
When you ask "Why'd you come here for?"
~ Cat Stevens
Reputation:
June 30th, 2012, 04:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttruscott
...
Got a trump for that?
Peace, Ted
Not yet anyway, I guess... sigh.
Peace, Ted
Wheat are NOT reborn tares !!!
Matt 13:36-43 good seed are sown by the Son of man tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil and, as per
Matthew 15:13 …Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up!
Location: On a sea of glass mixed with fire in front of a throne.
Rep Power: 49633
Christian (Other)
Right Winger
Slogan/motto:
Overcome by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of your testimony; and love not your life unto death.
Reputation:
October 3rd, 2012, 11:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttruscott
since I've responded so quickly and clearly, may I ask:
what can we do to find favor in His eyes, in your estimation?
I say it is by choosing in a true free will situation (I know, I know, they are few and far and hard to find but hey, it is my estimation)
to accept GOD's purpose for our creation. Period. Well, that gets you into the elect church but if you then sinned, and find yourself on earth, I suggest you go for repentance.
Got a trump for that?
Peace, Ted
If your free will choice is to believe, then it is not enough.
James 2:19
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
If your free will choice is to serve, then it must be followed by your actions.
Joshua 24:15
15And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Romans 14:17-18
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
1 Thessalonians 1:9-10
9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
No, not the God I serve, the God of Heaven and Earth. He gives Salvation to His People as a Free Gift of His Grace !
Yes, if only you could figure out who His people are.
Not your select group.
Then, after you do that, you can find out what He did offer those He saved. (To be born again)
First comes Salvation as a free gift, then the offer of a relationship, through that free gift is offered. That offer is to be born again, and receive everlasting life.
The 'life' that Jesus gave to all men, on the cross is conditional, based on if they are thankful for the free gift, want to walk with Him in that free gift or not.
Those who reject the relationship, are blotted out of the book of life.
All are in the book of life, due to the finished work on the cross. (All have been saved, reconciled to God and redeemed by the blood of the Lamb), without the aid of human hands.
Salvation itself was not offered to anyone. (The free gift)
It is a free gift, so that no man can boast.
It is because people confuse 'being born again' with salvation that we have this problem.
Only those who put that free gift into a relationship, by choosing to take up that cross/free gift and follow Him, are born again. The rest are blotted out of the book of life.
The definition of "reprobate" is that of a soul who is outside of the grace of Jesus Christ.
You are denying the reality of reprobation and the right of Sovereign God to prevent their salvation.
God owes salvation to no man for all are sinners and deserve nothing but death, but He has chosen to show grace to many, adopting them as sons in Christ according to His will and good purposes only.
The rest of humanity remains outside of Christ and accursed forever.
There is nothing "universal" about salvation at all.
When are you going to learn that Jesus died to save sinners?
Not the righteouss!
Boasting in a Salvation given to you, but held from others is one of the worst sins I ever heard of.
Agreed, now get with the program that it was freely given to all men, and stop making yourself boast amongst men.
Salvation was NOT freely given to all men.
"The Bible is very clear, Christians aren't supposed to be busybodies, nor are they supposed to strive with any man who hasn't harmed him (Or someone else, by implication.)" RandPaulfor2016, May 10, 2013
In order for something to be a gift it must be offered to be rejected or accepted. Check.
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