ReligionDiscuss General Theology, Religions and Denominations, God's Attributes, Predestination and Free Will, Dispensationalism, Eschatology, Philosophy, Origins, Archaeology, Science, World History and other such topics.
You actually have little choice but to go along with the traditional way of reading the text- as I expect Jesus did. Your attitude towards Jewish understanding of the scriptures is very useful- you don't have to ever consider how Jews read their own book, thus removing a threat to your thinking.
It seems you are wrong about the root of "Malach". It is Lamed Aleph Caph
Another possibility is that it has a four letter root (there are such roots). It is related to the word for "labor", perhaps because the agent has a job to do.
The above information comes from Jewish sources, so feel free to ignore it. Like you said- what could Jews possibly know about Hebrew or their own scriptures anyhow?
Jesus mainly quoted from the LXX...which is Greek and existed literally hundreds and hundreds of years before the Mesoretes artifically altered their Hebrew scriptures by adding diacritics, etc. After all, what Jews follow today is, in fact, the MT recension - which means that it was artifically altered from the original in an attempt to make it adhere to the false Jewish unitarian world-view.
Jesus mainly quoted from the LXX...which is Greek and existed literally hundreds and hundreds of years before the Mesoretes artifically altered their Hebrew scriptures by adding diacritics, etc. After all, what Jews follow today is, in fact, the MT recension - which means that it was artifically altered from the original in an attempt to make it adhere to the false Jewish unitarian world-view.
No. The Massorites recorded the traditional Jewish way of reading the Hebrew Bible.
Since the Jews were never trinitarians, they never had a need to "alter" the text.
No. The Massorites recorded the traditional Jewish way of reading the Hebrew Bible.
Not possible.
The LXX is from the third century BC.
Your MT recension is from the 10th century AD.
The LXX predates any Trinitarian vs. Unitarian debates on record, and more accurately records the original text.
Quote:
Since the Jews were never trinitarians, they never had a need to "alter" the text.
Actually, Jews severely altered their own scriptures in a vain attempt to remove any hint of a plural Creator.
As we can see, they failed....for they would have had to also remove the thousands upon thousands of verses which plainly state that they worshipped idols and other abborations in lieu of the true God.
Slogan/motto:
I know a lot of fancy dancers
People who can glide you on a floor
They move so smooth but have no answers
When you ask "Why'd you come here for?"
~ Cat Stevens
Reputation:
June 30th, 2012, 08:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chair
1. It was NOT a typo. There are two alternate thoughts as to what the root of the word is. A three letter root without the Mem, and four letter root.
2. You do not even want to accept how we do the "vowel pointing". We are not talking about interpretation here- we are talking about how you read the text.
Ahhh, thanks so much.
But, doesn't interpretation force pointing?
Peace, Ted
Wheat are NOT reborn tares !!!
Matt 13:36-43 good seed are sown by the Son of man tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil and, as per
Matthew 15:13 …Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up!
The LXX predates any Trinitarian vs. Unitarian debates on record, and more accurately records the original text.
Actually, Jews severely altered their own scriptures in a vain attempt to remove any hint of a plural Creator.
As we can see, they failed....for they would have had to also remove the thousands upon thousands of verses which plainly state that they worshipped idols and other abborations in lieu of the true God.
The first part of the Septuagint, the five books of Moses, dates from the 3rd century BCE- not all of it.
We have never had an interest in hiding the periods when we misbehaved, whether it be idol worship or social ills. One of the points of our scriptures is to teach us, so we learn from our failures.
The LXX was preserved by the Church, so it was a candidate for alteration as well.
I suggest that we start another thread, where you and your friends can pick verses from the LXX that clearly support the Trinity, say five or so, and we can take a look at them, compare to the Massoretic text and so on. If you can find some examples of how the vowel pointing was used, in your opinion, to change the meaning away from the "True Trinity" view, that would be great.
Besides including texts which I believe are spurious, there are some big problems with the LXX. I prefer the Masoretic text, and trust Jews over the pagan Greek Seleucids.
The first part of the Septuagint, the five books of Moses, dates from the 3rd century BCE- not all of it.
So....we are in agreement that the LXX is at least 1,000 years older than your MT recension.
Quote:
We have never had an interest in hiding the periods when we misbehaved, whether it be idol worship or social ills. One of the points of our scriptures is to teach us, so we learn from our failures.
That's really what your scriptures teach us....chronic Jewish failure....yes?
Quote:
The LXX was preserved by the Church, so it was a candidate for alteration as well.
Perhaps you could show us some examples of this assertion...?
Quote:
I suggest that we start another thread, where you and your friends can pick verses from the LXX that clearly support the Trinity, say five or so, and we can take a look at them, compare to the Massoretic text and so on. If you can find some examples of how the vowel pointing was used, in your opinion, to change the meaning away from the "True Trinity" view, that would be great.
Besides including texts which I believe are spurious, there are some big problems with the LXX. I prefer the Masoretic text, and trust Jews over the pagan Greek Seleucids.
Let's see...
You also trust a self-proclaimed English 'prophet' from the 1800's who copied extensively from the KJV Bible into his own opus, claiming it as his own....
So....we are in agreement that the LXX is at least 1,000 years older than your MT recension.
No. Not my words at all. I do not view the MAssoretic text as a "recension", but as a record of the traditional text and the reading of that text.
The oldest complete manuscripts of the Septuagint are from the fourth century AD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple7
That's really what your scriptures teach us....chronic Jewish failure....yes?
No. You have been harping on this in another thread. This approach is rather curious, considering the Christian doctrine of original sin.
I suggest that you read Leviticus 26
44 Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking my covenant with them. I am the Lord their God. 45 But for their sake I will remember the covenant with their ancestors whom I brought out of Egypt in the sight of the nations to be their God. I am the Lord.’”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple7
Perhaps you could show us some examples of this assertion...?
Nope. I am only pointing out that ancient texts were preserved by somebody, so one can always suspect that they fiddled with the text for their own reasons.
So it goes back to my suggestion. If you think that the Jewish Massorites did something to the text, and specifically, changed the vowel pointing to change the meaning- open a thread and let's discuss it.
Slogan/motto:
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
Reputation:
June 30th, 2012, 11:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wile E. Coyote
There are TWO subjects friend! Malak YHWH is also God!
So you have two gods.
That is of course idol worship, because the whole Bible teaches there is only one God.
And not only is your god his own son, and at the same time his own father, and at the same time his own servant, (Isaiah 53), now he is also his own messenger. (malach means "messenger")
How far can you push your absurdities??
שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד
Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H isONE.
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
This message is sent to you from Mount Zion, Jerusalem, Israel.
"From Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Y-H-W-H from Jerusalem." Isaiah 2:3, Micah 4:2
JC was not God, not the son of God, not divine, and not the messiah.
Only Y-H-W-H is God.
No. Not my words at all. I do not view the MAssoretic text as a "recension", but as a record of the traditional text and the reading of that text.
Masoretes, by definition, were rabbis who made it their job to correct errors which had supposedly crept into the OT.
Quote:
The oldest complete manuscripts of the Septuagint are from the fourth century AD.
So...whatever date you google, the LXX still comes-up hundreds upon hundreds of years older than your MT.
Quote:
No. You have been harping on this in another thread. This approach is rather curious, considering the Christian doctrine of original sin.
I suggest that you read Leviticus 26
44 Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking my covenant with them. I am the Lord their God. 45 But for their sake I will remember the covenant with their ancestors whom I brought out of Egypt in the sight of the nations to be their God. I am the Lord.’”
Time and again, showing context will clarify the situation for followers of Judaism, your very own example crystallizes my position and utterly destroys yours, as thus…
And of those who are left of you, they shall putrefy in their sin, in the lands of your enemies; and also in the sins of their fathers, they shall putrefy with them. And if they shall confess their sin, and the sin of their fathers, in their sin with which they have sinned against Me; and, also, that they have walked contrary to Me, that I also have walked contrary to them, and I have brought them into the land of their enemies; if their uncircumcised hearts are then humbled, and they then have accepted punishment for their sin; then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and also My covenant with Isaac, and I shall also remember My covenant with Abraham, and I shall remember the land. For the land shall be forsaken by them, and shall satisfy for its sabbaths, in the desolation without them. And they shall satisfy for their sin, because, even because, they have kicked against My judgments, and their soul has loathed My statutes. And yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, nor will I hate them, to consume them, to break My covenant with them; for I am Yahweh their God. Then I shall remember for them the covenant of the first fathers, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God; I am Yahweh. These are the statutes and the judgments and the laws which Jehovah has given between Him and the sons of Israel, in Mount Sinai, by the hand of Moses. (Lev 26.39 – 46)
Even your own scriptural example shows that God’s people are subject to the sins of their forefathers.
Original sin?! Its right there in your scriptures, brother!
Further, read the text….why did God spare the remnant of your people?
Drum roll…it is contained in the last verse of this chapter (the very next verse that you conveniently forgot to post)…and it refers to what the Triune God revealed to Moses on Mt. Sinai.
So again…I keep having to ask followers of Judaism…what is it that is righteous in the Eyes of God that the .1% of Jews did?
What occurred on Mt. Sinai?
Quote:
Nope. I am only pointing out that ancient texts were preserved by somebody, so one can always suspect that they fiddled with the text for their own reasons.
So it goes back to my suggestion. If you think that the Jewish Massorites did something to the text, and specifically, changed the vowel pointing to change the meaning- open a thread and let's discuss it.
Diactrics did not even exist in the original Hebrew brother.
So...adding them in the first place supercedes changing them afterwards!
That is of course idol worship, because the whole Bible teaches there is only one God.
And not only is your god his own son, and at the same time his own father, and at the same time his own servant, (Isaiah 53), now he is also his own messenger. (malach means "messenger")
How far can you push your absurdities??
שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד
Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H isONE.
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
This message is sent to you from Mount Zion, Jerusalem, Israel.
"From Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Y-H-W-H from Jerusalem." Isaiah 2:3, Micah 4:2
Yep...
Christ was merely the reflection of the almighty.
Christ was the Truth, the image of what is real and actually exists.
The issue of trinity is semantical and psychological.
For us, we are not privy to god directly.
We must convert into an image of Truth all the sensory information we receive about all that is external to us and our mind.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the truth, the way, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
If I am not mistaken, you said Jesus was YHWH some weeks back. I know Wile did. Do you care to recant?
They ought to have said, "Christ is the image of YHVH."
The thing that has confused people, especially the muslims all stemming from Muhammed's mistake, is that Truth is an image of YHVH which forms in our mind as an intangible invisible set of thoughts or a spirit of the Truth.
We can not interact directly with the almighty, but must rely upon our image of Truth to behave accrodingly.
Hence, for us, practically speaking, the two are one and the same to us.
That is of course idol worship, because the whole Bible teaches there is only one God.
And not only is your god his own son, and at the same time his own father, and at the same time his own servant, (Isaiah 53), now he is also his own messenger. (malach means "messenger")
How far can you push your absurdities??
שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד
Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H isONE.
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
This message is sent to you from Mount Zion, Jerusalem, Israel.
"From Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Y-H-W-H from Jerusalem." Isaiah 2:3, Micah 4:2
Again Paul identifies the one YHWH of verse 4 as Jesus Christ, Deuteronomy 6:16; 1 Corinthians 10:9.
God called His Malak "YHWH your God," Exodus 23:20-25. That Malak is Christ, 1 Corinthians 10:4; Jude 5 ESV.
Masoretes, by definition, were rabbis who made it their job to correct errors which had supposedly crept into the OT.
Not exactly. Their goal was to record the correct version of the Tanakh. Errors do in fact creep in over time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple7
So...whatever date you google, the LXX still comes-up hundreds upon hundreds of years older than your MT.
Yes. SO what?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple7
Time and again, showing context will clarify the situation for followers of Judaism, your very own example crystallizes my position and utterly destroys yours, as thus…
You seriously believe that the message of the Jewish Bible is that Jews are bad, always have been bad, and always will be bad. You project what was written thousands of years ago on people living today. You pick and choose verses to meet your belief, and manged to turn the Chosen People into something negative.
There is nothing I can say to fix this- you dislike Jews, and that drives a good portion of your posts. Why you don't like Jews is unknown to me. Perhaps some day you will explain- but start a different thread- we have gotten off track already.
Now, let's get back on topic. I suggest, again, that you start a thread with examples of how the Massorites changed the Bible, specifically the vowel pointing, in order to hide the true Trinitarian message of the text. If you can't support that claim, then just admit it.
Linear Mode
