Eternal torment or Annihilation? What happens to the Wicked...
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But death and dis-integration of life-forms is, such is the cycle of conditional existence,.....impermanence,...on-going change.
Yes,....all is energy and consciousness. It merely undergoes 'transformation'.
But satan and all negative entities, forces, polarities, personalities are a part of the duality of the world, the 'yin' and 'yang', the 'negative' and 'positive' poles of relative existence. The world includes all these polarities, from the grossest evil to the highest good. Such is where all possibilities and potentials are free to express.
Yes. That which is truly eternal, infinite, unborn, undying, unchanging in its essence,....is everlasting (pure awareness/consciousness). All else is a continuum of change, transformation, movement.
pj
What you have to keep in mind is that God is not in every idea that comes to man, universalism, reincarnation, or immmortality from ourselves, etc... is not from God. So then you must look to see where those ideas come from and if you read Gods word it soon becomes apparent that its the same source that told Eve in the garden that she could find another way other than Gods, and be like a god and live forever. It was a lie then and is a lie now just repackaged so that man picks it up and thinks they can live forever without God.
What you have to keep in mind is that God is not in every idea that comes to man, universalism, reincarnation, or immmortality from ourselves, etc... is not from God. So then you must look to see where those ideas come from and if you read Gods word it soon becomes apparent that its the same source that told Eve in the garden that she could find another way other than Gods, and be like a god and live forever. It was a lie then and is a lie now just repackaged so that man picks it up and thinks they can live forever without God.
Did you also read my response to your points in post # 102?
My point is the Bible is limited in its details on soul destiny, and since different points of view can be taken and interpretations made...there are naturally different schools of thought.
As far as some ideas not being from 'God',....how could man be 'conscious' or have any idea or concept apart from 'God' who has allowed all forms of thought and consciousness to exist? Some ideas or beliefs may be more logical or reasonable than others. No one religious tradition or cult has the monopoly on 'truth', since Truth is universal, therefore we can learn about 'Light' from its many reflections.
Ok, answer me this, from the bible and the bible only....................
Did Sodom experience eternal fire.........?
Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Is Sodom still burning....?
Genesis 13:10
Lot looked around and saw that the whole plain of the Jordan toward Zoar was well watered, like the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt. (This was before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.)
2 Peter 2:6
And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
What does the Bible say happened to the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha, I will await your reply.......
Please learn to separate the physical destruction of these two cities from the eternal destinies of those therein.
For example, the passage from Jude illustrates an earthly judgment previewing the fire to come that will not be quenched (see, Rev. 16:8–9; 20:9, and then Matt. 3:12; 18:8; 25:41; Mark 9:43–44, 46, 48; Luke 3:17; Rev. 19:20; 20:14–15; 21:8). You might also back up to verses 5 and 6 in Jude for more context.
Luke 10:1-13 is instructive here. Among many other lessons, the lack of repentance of those in these cities is in view, and their eternal destinies for their lack thereof is as well.
If you are struggling with the doctrine of eternal torment, I suggest you start here:
Did you also read my response to your points in post # 102?
My point is the Bible is limited in its details on soul destiny, and since different points of view can be taken and interpretations made...there are naturally different schools of thought.
As far as some ideas not being from 'God',....how could man be 'conscious' or have any idea or concept apart from 'God' who has allowed all forms of thought and consciousness to exist? Some ideas or beliefs may be more logical or reasonable than others. No one religious tradition or cult has the monopoly on 'truth', since Truth is universal, therefore we can learn about 'Light' from its many reflections.
pj
But the Holy Spirit is not limited, and it guides His true believers into all truth and there is only one way to eternal life and Christ does have a monopoly, so mans ideas or theories, traditions, logic mean nothing.
Please learn to separate the physical destruction of these two cities from the eternal destinies of those therein.
For example, the passage from Jude illustrates an earthly judgment previewing the fire to come that will not be quenched (see, Rev. 16:8–9; 20:9, and then Matt. 3:12; 18:8; 25:41; Mark 9:43–44, 46, 48; Luke 3:17; Rev. 19:20; 20:14–15; 21:8). You might also back up to verses 5 and 6 in Jude for more context.
Luke 10:1-13 is instructive here. Among many other lessons, the lack of repentance of those in these cities is in view, and their eternal destinies for their lack thereof is as well.
If you are struggling with the doctrine of eternal torment, I suggest you start here:
I would like to add from my first post on this thread Here, and agree with Mr. Bacchiocchi on some points, although my view is not based on a limited perspective of so called literal biblical interpretation.
Yep, and so are alot of other subjects or concepts(literal & metaphoric), but 'interpretations' of such may be more or less imperfect.
Granted those of us who have studied this...know most of the 'allocations' of 'hell' scripturally speaking, but an important thing to note is that even the concept of 'annihilation' or 'destruction' can be metaphorically defined or interpreted, let alone what 'death' actually is ( it depend on how one defines it). - this is further complicated by the very ontology and metaphysics of 'soul life' and the very mechanics of 'personality', which I've alluded to the Urantia Papers giving a more detailed study on.
There's certainly alot more involved, and it is only an 'assumption' that the Bible gives a complete, perfect or inerrant description of such. Not to mention that other religious faith-traditions have both feasible and possible alternative views on the destiny of souls. What view 'you' or 'I' takes will be conditioned or influenced by so many factors. If one uses only the Bible for their literal definitions or theology, and the bible is by nature already imperfect, incomplete and limited in its concepts, then whatever one puts forth as 'biblical' becomes self-serving, and only a matter of 'assumption'.
As touched on previously,...any sane person can see that ECT (eternal conscious torment) is absurd, being illogical, unjust, unmerciful, basically 'insane'. Therefore another 'resolve' must be considered.
Note that 'hell' still has metaphoric correlaries, and such would essentially be a conscious state of disharmony, dis-sease, unrest, insanity. Therefore beyond literal definitions of the original words translated into the english word 'hell' in the Bible,....'hell' is still just as miserable a 'place' as traditionally 'imagined'. It is the epitome of unhappiness. (playing again on popular concepts).
In some aspects Universalism trumps annihilationism, because ultimately all souls awaken to truth and enter into perfect unity with Source, since that Source is originally perfect and true, the essence of Love itself. In this way divine will ultimately triumphs because it is all that is essentially REAL. All else is more or less unreal, illusionary, imperfect, sin-ful. In this respect, as I hold 'God' to be the only universal, eternal and infintie reality, being ABSOLUTE....only 'God' ultimately prevails, and that which is within the constitution and potential of Man finally and ultimately realizes this, because that pure essence and divine will is 'God'. More of a case could be made for Universalism.
A previous battle royal where the case for Universalism is presented and contested -
While some protest that ECT is rather 'harsh',....it could be seen that 'God' totally destroying souls rendering them 'non-existent' is an even more 'grave' action (pardon the pun). Also some think the saved in 'heaven' will greive over unsaved loved ones agonizing in hell forever, - I suppose the saved will be somehow more consoled to know that their unsaved loved ones are forever expunged from existence altogether - one is at a loss either way here, but 'Universalism' kinda solves that
Finally, you dont know for sure, you can only conceptualize, figure and assume from your present library of knowledge, intellectual capacity and spiritual insight....what really happens to the wicked, both temporally and eternally. It might be swell to realize uncle Bob and Aunt Margie have been expunged out of existence altogether (vaporized into nothingness), but again....this could be ontologically or metaphysically problematic, depending on your personal theology and understanding of 'energy' and 'consciousness', let alone the unique dynamics of 'personality'.
pj
I had not much problem with your post except on universalism.
Universalism is straight from the time of Satan telling Eve not to worry she would be like a god so would go on forever no matter what, it is a dangerous and false doctrine.
Correct,....'God' is infinite. His Spirit-Presence is not limited to any one person, culture or religious tradition....or 'point of view' for that matter....since 'God' sees all possible points of view.
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and it guides His true believers into all truth
As long as a soul is open, responsive and sincere....uh huh.....
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and there is only one way to eternal life and Christ does have a monopoly,
thats one popular belief assumed by some, variously interpreted and qualified
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so mans ideas or theories, traditions, logic mean nothing.
Religious myths, concepts, symbols, archetypes DO mean something, and have their place in our various theologies. Such are to be employed and explored intelligently in our philosophical adventure of life. Values and meanings have their place in 'religious experience'.
It may do you well to keep an open mind and consider that your point of view is subject to change.
I had not much problem with your post except on universalism.
Have you fully researched the logic and supports for universal salvation?
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Universalism is straight from the time of Satan telling Eve not to worry she would be like a god so would go on forever no matter what, it is a dangerous and false doctrine.
Ridiculous. I dont see a correlary. Most 'christian universalists' do not believe souls become 'gods', but its natural to assume that those who enjoy fellowship with 'God' become partakers of the divine nature. I'd gather that that nature is immortal
Slogan/motto:
Ps82 KJV You will die like mere men, you will fall like one of the princes, but who is it that is not a man that dies like a man?
Reputation:
July 5th, 2012, 01:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by freelight
Did you also read my response to your points in post # 102?
My point is the Bible is limited in its details on soul destiny, and since different points of view can be taken and interpretations made...there are naturally different schools of thought.
As far as some ideas not being from 'God',....how could man be 'conscious' or have any idea or concept apart from 'God' who has allowed all forms of thought and consciousness to exist? Some ideas or beliefs may be more logical or reasonable than others. No one religious tradition or cult has the monopoly on 'truth', since Truth is universal, therefore we can learn about 'Light' from its many reflections.
pj
Jesus says that he is the Truth, the Way, and the Life.
What Jesus told his disciples is the Truth of the matter and the only way to salvation.
He is the Way for us to reach our next point of destination as the process of salvation continues.
He is the one who is able to give us our further measures of life ... which will ultimately give us a life forever forward (aka: eternal life).
There is only ONE Truth ... and salvation is of the Lord Jesus ... our creator and savior. Is. 43:11
I happen to believe that he will reach out to people all over the world no matter what is their present faith and will reveal himself ... then it is up to those people to use their freewill to accept the truth.
.... Or possibly Christ, through his mercy, will save some who never have heard the gospel or who are incapable of understanding due to being handicapped. I leave those exceptions to the process up to him.
Jesus says that he is the Truth, the Way, and the Life.
What Jesus told his disciples is the Truth of the matter and the only way to salvation.
He is the Way for us to reach our next point of destination as the process of salvation continues.
He is the one who is able to give us our further measures of life ... which will ultimately give us a life forever forward (aka: eternal life).
There is only ONE Truth ... and salvation is of the Lord Jesus ... our creator and savior. Is. 43:11
I happen to believe that he will reach out to people all over the world no matter what is their present faith and will reveal himself ... then it is up to those people to use their freewill to accept the truth.
.... Or possibly Christ, through his mercy, will save some who never have heard the gospel or who are incapable of understanding due to being handicapped. I leave those exceptions to the process up to him.
The Bible shows you the truth, yet you shut your eyes to it.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
The verse clearly say so they should not perish, if only those who believe in Jesus have eternal life instead of perishing, how can the wicked live eternally in hell without perishing? Then you have..
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom. 6:23)
So hell or the lake of fire is a place where sinners receive the just wages of their sins: eternal death rather than eternal life. And scripture tells us when would hell take place?
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Mat. 13:39-42)
We see that scripture tells us it is a event that takes place at the very end of the world, when God eradicates sin from the entire universe once and for all at the lake of fire. The idea of an eternally burning hell defeats the whole purpose of hell by perpetuating rather than exterminating sin.
- one is at a loss either way here, but 'Universalism' kinda solves that 
a nip in the bud -
July 5th, 2012, 10:03 AM
extra pruning....... -
July 5th, 2012, 10:08 AM
Linear Mode
