[Cruciform]

Originally Posted by john w

2 Corinthians 6:17 KJV
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

It always makes me smile when anti-Catholics try to use the words of a member of the Church's original Magisterium to supposedly undermine the Church's present Magisterium---as though the New Testament would actually instruct faithful believers to abandon and reject Christ's own historic Church. On the contrary, see, e.g., Mt. 16:18-19; 18:17; 28:18-20; Lk. 10:16; 22:32; Jn. 13:20; Ac. 16:4; Rom. 16:17; 1 Cor. 12:28; 2 Cor. 5:20; Eph. 1:22-23; 3:10; 1 Thess. 4:8; 1 Tim. 3:15; Titus 2:15; Heb. 13:17; 2 Pet. 1:19-21; 1 Jn. 4:6.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

[Cruciform]

Originally Posted by oatmeal

Actually, Luther taught to follow scriptures instead of the mandates of men.

QUESTION: Did 1st-century believers "follow the Scriptures" according to their own preferences and opinions, or according to "the mandates of men" (i.e, the apostles' teachings [Lk. 10:16; 1 Jn. 4:6; Ac. 16:4; 1 Tim. 3:15])?

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

[Cruciform]

Originally Posted by Angel4Truth

I'm non-denominational.

I'm pre-denominational.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

[DonW]

Originally Posted by rexlunae

So, he criticized them for their lack of justice, mercy, and faith...not for being Pharisees.

Of course. They taught and believed a different sense of justice, mercy, and faith from that which God expresses. Likewise, I don't criticize the Catholics for the label they wear, but for the error they believe and practice. If there were no error, there would be nothing to criticize. Same for the atheists, in the extreme case.

[HisServant]

Originally Posted by TruthSetsFree

since Luther, the "Father of Protestantism"

was a Catholic priest

The difference between Protestants and CAtholics (practicing ones)

is this:

We follow the Church Christ established, wherein is Christ Himself

Protestants follow Luther

and his distorted version of "church"

Luthur was not the father of "protestantism"... he is only the first one to escape being killed by the popes minions.

I view John Wycliffe an Jan Hus as the reformers that started it all and paid with their lives.

One of my favorite quotes of Jan Hus was

"One pays for confession, for mass, for the sacrament, for indulgences, for churching a woman, for a blessing, for burials, for funeral services and prayers. The very last penny which an old woman has hidden in her bundle for fear of thieves or robbery will not be saved. The villainous priest will grab it."

[TruthSetsFree]

Originally Posted by oatmeal

Actually, Luther taught to follow scriptures instead of the mandated of men.

No one else was teaching it, so God had Luther do it

no one can u/stand the Bible w/o

JEsus Christ to interpret it for him/her

Jesus founded His Church to do just that

a man with a Bible and his own interpretation

is like an uneducated foreigner who never got beyond the 6th grade (and didn't read any books to educate himself), grabbing a book on US History and thinking that is sufficient for him to bn placed in the White House as Pre

[TruthSetsFree]

Originally Posted by Cruciform

I'm pre-denominational.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

good one

[DonW]

Originally Posted by TruthSetsFree

is like an uneducated foreigner who never got beyond the 6th grade (and didn't read any books to educate himself), grabbing a book on US History and thinking that is sufficient for him to bn placed in the White House as Pre

It worked for Obama

[TruthSetsFree]

Originally Posted by DonW

It worked for Obama

[Cruciform]

Originally Posted by HisServant

Luthur was not the father of "protestantism"... I view John Wycliffe an Jan Hus as the reformers that started it all...

You'll need to inform the entire community of Reformation scholars---Protestant as well as Catholic---of your brilliant opinion, since they all cite Luther as the father of the Protestant Reformation. Wyclif and Hus are designated as "Proto-Reformers." Looks like you know as little of Reformation history as you do about ecclesiastical history in general.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

[DonW]

Originally Posted by wikipedia, source of all truth, haha

John Wycliffe (play /ˈwɪklɪf/; also spelled Wyclif, Wycliff, Wiclef, Wicliffe, or Wickliffe) (c. 1320 – December 31, 1384) was an English Scholastic philosopher, theologian, lay preacher,[1] translator, reformer and university teacher at Oxford in England, who was known as an early dissident in the Roman Catholic Church during the 14th century. His followers were known as Lollards, a somewhat rebellious movement, which preached anticlerical and biblically-centred reforms. The Lollard movement[1] was a precursor to the Protestant Reformation (for this reason, Wycliffe is sometimes called "The Morning Star of the Reformation"). He was one of the earliest opponents of papal authority influencing secular power.[2]

So while denominations see the reformation (re-formation) of church authority and hierarchy as beginning with Luther, the theological and historical roots predate Luther by centuries.

You might also look up the Waldensians, who survived four centuries of persecution until they were taken into the Protestant fold.

[HisServant]

Originally Posted by Cruciform

You'll need to inform the entire community of Reformation scholars---Protestant as well as Catholic---of your brilliant opinion, since they all cite Luther as the father of the Protestant Reformation. Wyclif and Hus are designated as "Proto-Reformers." Looks like you know as little of Reformation history as you do about ecclesiastical history in general.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Just plain wrong... You really should do some research before you spout such blatant untruths.

[Cruciform]

Originally Posted by DonW

So while denominations see the reformation (re-formation) of church authority and hierarchy as beginning with Luther, the theological and historical roots predate Luther by centuries.

Of course.

You might also look up the Waldensians, who survived four centuries of persecution until they were taken into the Protestant fold.

Keep studying.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

[Cruciform]

Originally Posted by HisServant

Just plain wrong... You really should do some research before you spout such blatant untruths.

Go ahead and post your proof.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

[HisServant]

Originally Posted by Cruciform

Go ahead and post your proof.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Proof of what?.. opinions? Opinions are like rear-ends, everyone has one.

Do you think calling a vote to find the majority opinion as being binding?

The FACT is that Wycliffe and Jan Hus were cited as inspiration for Luther, Calvin, Zwingli and a bunch of other reformers.