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I have maintained all along that Mary is not the Church.
Who is the 'man child' in this verse?
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
What did I write in my post? Did you read it? Have you read ALL of rev 12?__all of it? The answers are all there! First read it AND my post and previous answers then come back to me with questions, ok?
[quote=Cross Reference;3130624]How does rev 12 read to you?
We [i] can't go along with much Jack and Rex conclude because there are too many gaping holes in their thinking. Not only that but it is all 1 Thess. driven that if understood properly, connects very well with Rev 12 they don't point out__But, they don't take you there.
Many old theologians have it that woman mentioned in Rev 12 is the Church with the "man child" being the "serious Christians/very elect" who are taken out midway into the tribulation. If that is true, and I believe it is, that is the rapture__unless there are two raptures?__which we believe there isn't.
OMT: When it says the Woman escapes into the wilderness to a place prepared for her for 3 1/2 years, I see this as the Church going underground, like in many parts of the world today where she already has been.
Read the chapter with all that in mind and see what you come up with.[/QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross Reference
What did I write in my post? Did you read it? Have you read ALL of rev 12?__all of it? The answers are all there! First read it AND my post and previous answers then come back to me with questions, ok?
Yes, I read your post.
I disagree with your conclusions and that's why I reponded with the posts that I wrote. Isn't that what we do here?
I've read Rev 12 over the last thirty-three years, I don't know maybe a hundred times?
The 'man child' is Christ Jesus.
The 'woman' is Israel.
The Church is not even referenced.
When one comes to understand that the Bible is Judeo-centric, then things begin to fall into place and prophecy makes sense.
We [i] can't go along with much Jack and Rex conclude because there are too many gaping holes in their thinking. Not only that but it is all 1 Thess. driven that if understood properly, connects very well with Rev 12 they don't point out__But, they don't take you there.
Many old theologians have it that woman mentioned in Rev 12 is the Church with the "man child" being the "serious Christians/very elect" who are taken out midway into the tribulation. If that is true, and I believe it is, that is the rapture__unless there are two raptures?__which we believe there isn't.
OMT: When it says the Woman escapes into the wilderness to a place prepared for her for 3 1/2 years, I see this as the Church going underground, like in many parts of the world today where she already has been.
Read the chapter with all that in mind and see what you come up with.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I read your post.
I disagree with your conclusions and that's why I reponded with the posts that I wrote. Isn't that what we do here?
I've read Rev 12 over the last thirty-three years, I don't know maybe a hundred times?
The 'man child' is Christ Jesus.
The 'woman' is Israel.
The Church is not even referenced.
When one comes to understand that the Bible is Judeo-centric, then things begin to fall into place and prophecy makes sense.
Doesn't fit. If you read the chapter and know your bible, you would see that.__but stick with your reform commentaries and stay stuck.
How does rev 12 read to you?
Read the chapter with all that in mind and see what you come up with.
Well t ref i read it twice. Im not sure what i see. Ive never studied the book of Rev. Ive read it hundreds of times. If you would start a thread on this chapter going verse by verse ill study it with ya. Who knows what we will find.
Doesn't fit. If you read the chapter and know your bible, you would see that.__but stick with your reform commentaries and stay stuck.
I am not 'reform'. Reformation eschatology flows from Roman Augustinian eschatology, which believes that the woman in Rev 12 is the church, and which replaces prophecy concerning Israel with the church....Replacement Theology/Supersessionism.
There is no reference to anything resembling the church from Rev 6 to Rev 19.
The Seventy Weeks is to Daniel's people, of which timetable the most part of the book of Revelation is concerned with.....the final seven years....the time of Jacob's/Israel's trouble......not the church.
I am not 'reform'. Reformation eschatology flows from Roman Augustinian eschatology, which believes that the woman in Rev 12 is the church, and which replaces prophecy concerning Israel with the church....Replacement Theology/Supersessionism.
There is no reference to anything resembling the church from Rev 6 to Rev 19.
The Seventy Weeks is to Daniel's people, of which timetable the most part of the book of Revelation is concerned with.....the final seven years....the time of Jacob's/Israel's trouble......not the church.
You have totally dismissed all that I put up to you that, when the attempt is made to understand, they will confirm all I have said.
So be it. Two raptures, Church, Mary, Jesus , man-child_ many membered Christian body, 3 1/2 years __ignored remnant of her seed that will be sought out for death __who cares. Go your way.
You have totally dismissed all that I put up to you that, when the attempt is made to understand, they will confirm all I have said.
So be it. Two raptures, Church, Mary, Jesus , man-child_ many membered Christian body, 3 1/2 years __ignored remnant of her seed that will be sought out for death __who cares. Go your way.
I wasn't looking for your help. I was trying address your concerns__which you didn't have and your mind was made up while asking me what you supposedly sought for. I gave it to you and you dismissed without reading and made little of the rest.
Last trumpet to be blown
1st ressurection
people raptured
7 year tribulation period
Day of the Lord
1000yr period of rest
2nd ressurection
Great White thrown judgement
I know this is Jacks and Rexella's
The reason i ask for timeline....
1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1THES.4 voice clouds trump of God sorrow not as others -
ZEPH. 1 voice clouds the trumpet man shall cry bitterly -
ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
Seems the 2 above scriptures are speaking of the same event. The Day of the Lord. The 1Thes.4 scripture takes place AFTER the trib period. Theres no room for a pre or mid trib rapture. And as i said before nowhere in any of these so called rapture scriptures will you find we are fliting off to heaven.
Which places the whole thing in Rev 12.__in the middle of the tribulation.
Revelation is about Jacobs trouble and judgement. We are saved from it, and we depart first. If you choose to not believe, well, that is on you. When the fullness of the gentiles comes in, that church will depart, and the blindness on Israel will be lifted. This is conditional of course, the kingdom and restoration.
Revelation is about Jacobs trouble and judgement. We are saved from it, and we depart first. If you choose to not believe, well, that is on you. When the fullness of the gentiles comes in, that church will depart, and the blindness on Israel will be lifted. This is conditional of course, the kingdom and restoration.
Then there must be two raptures. Are you prepared to concede that?
I wasn't looking for your help. I was trying address your concerns__which you didn't have and your mind was made up while asking me what you supposedly sought for. I gave it to you and you dismissed without reading and made little of the rest.
Sorry I couldn't be of any help to ya'!
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