[tomlapalm]

The only example where a soul is mention at "birth" is Adam where He became a "living soul".

But would a soul ever be not "living" God breathed on Human body. NO.

I think the emphasis is on "living" rather than the soul as a contrast to the "dead"

[ttruscott]

Originally Posted by Cross Reference

What ??!!

Creation being over, souls are not created at conception. Souls are birthed into existence by PRO_CREATION. Souls exist in the sperm and egg coming together, the process ordained of God and inserted into the biology of his created man__and woman.

Jesus was born__not created.

I understand this is an ancient doctrine but that does not make it correct:

The idea that Creation being over, souls are not created at conception. Souls are birthed into existence by PRO_CREATION, is called

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traducianism
Traducianism

"Traducianism means that this immaterial aspect is transmitted through natural generation along with the body, the material aspect of human beings."

as apart from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creationism_%28soul%29
Creationism (soul) - a doctrine held by some Christians that God creates a soul for each body that is generated.

and

Pre-existence - the belief that all souls/spirits were created at the same time before the creation of the physical worlds.

Martin Luther, like Augustine, was undecided, but Lutherans have as a rule been traducianists. John Calvin favoured creationism, as do the Catholics.

So once again it is clear that what some feel is the only true interpretation of scriptureal doctrine is just another statment of faith. Conviction of truth ≠ proof.

Peace, Ted

[ttruscott]

Originally Posted by Cross Reference

Who cares? The only thing it might support is your phony presuppositions.

Yes, I agree'; this verse does indeed support my contention that a man can sin before he is born, by free will in the spirit world

just like Jacob and Esau fighting in the womb over the birthright they were to inherit at their birth. How could they know things like birthright and status in the womb? Did they remember these concepts once born? I don't think so.

And fighting - this implies that they were both being evil or at least one was being evil or they were both fighting due to the will of GOD.

Peace, Ted

[ttruscott]

Originally Posted by godrulz

The disciples had a theological problem based on a wrong view. This is not a didactic passage implying PCE?! The wrong view is to think sin causes all suffering, so how can a fetus who cannot sin cause the handicap (so it must have been the parents). But, neither is correct and the blindness was not caused by a specific, volitional sin. It has nothing to do with the possibility of pre-existence contradicted by other principles and proof texts.

Why did HE not rebuke their misconception about being able to sin before birth, so easily done? Maybe to hide pre-conception existence while giving the answer that his blindness was not a judgement?

AS for "a fetus who cannot sin:" Jacob and Esau were sinners in the womb, fighting so hard their mother prayed for help.

And if a foetus cannot sin ie has no sin, how could GOD pronounce judgement against them time and again, at the flood, at Soddam and Gomorrah and through all the time of genocide against Israel's pagan neighbours?

Only the guilty are judged.

Death is the wages for sin also means that the person who dies is proven to be a sinner, foetus or not.

Peace, Ted

[Nang]

Originally Posted by ttruscott

Pre-existence - the belief that all souls/spirits were created at the same time before the creation of the physical worlds.

This theory is anti-scriptural.

Adam was formed by the created dust of the earth, and life was imparted by God's breath. Genesis 1:7 He became a living being of body and soul on the sixth day. Genesis 1:31

Eve was created from Adam (Genesis 2:22-23); a product of the same created, material dust, on the same day. Genesis 1:27, 31

The entire human race has resulted from the creation of Adam and Eve on the 6th day of creation, and all persons (body and soul) bear the image of this natural man of dust. I Corinthians 15:34-49

Why would you attempt to deny and mess with all this revelation from God? What's in it for you to speculate otherwise?

Is it simply just another way to explain away the difficulties of belief in free-will in the face of God's sovereignty?

Scripture harmonizes these truths just fine. There is no need to take away from the Word or add to the Word, to find answer to this question.

Nang

[Wile E. Coyote]

Originally Posted by Nang

This theory is anti-scriptural.

Adam was formed by created dust of the earth, and life was imparted by God's breath. Genesis 1:7 He became a living being of body and soul on the sixth day. Genesis 1:31

Eve was created from Adam (Genesis 2:22-23); a product of the same created, material dust, on the same day. Genesis 1:27, 31 T

The entire human race has resulted from the creation of Adam and Eve on the 6th day of creation, and all persons (body and soul) bear the image of this natural man of dust. I Corinthians 15:34-49

Nang,

You are correctWhy would you attempt to deny and mess with all this revelation from God? What's in it for you to speculate otherwise?

Is it simply just another way to explain away the difficulties of belief in free-will in the face of God's sovereignty?

Scripture harmonizes these truths just fine. There is no need to take away from the Word or add to the Word, to find answer to this question.

Nang

Nang,

You are correct. "The FIRST man is of the earth, made of dust."

[Nang]

Originally Posted by ttruscott

Why did HE not rebuke their misconception about being able to sin before birth, so easily done? Maybe to hide pre-conception existence while giving the answer that his blindness was not a judgement?

AS for "a fetus who cannot sin:" Jacob and Esau were sinners in the womb, fighting so hard their mother prayed for help.

And if a foetus cannot sin ie has no sin, how could GOD pronounce judgement against them time and again, at the flood, at Soddam and Gomorrah and through all the time of genocide against Israel's pagan neighbours?

Only the guilty are judged.

Death is the wages for sin also means that the person who dies is proven to be a sinner, foetus or not.

Peace, Ted

All human offspring of Adam have been imputed with his guilt by God. There is no innocent fetus or infant or medically challenged or healthy adult in existence, for all are declared guilty.

Why?

Because God created Adam as federal head (representative) of all men. Adam was accountable for the fate of all his earthly descendants when he volitionally sinned and cast himself and all his seed under the mastery and bondage to sin, death, and the devil.

Why?

Because the first Adam was created a type of the last Adam, Jesus Christ, who also was sent into this world as federal head (representative) of all the sons of promise given to Him by the Father. (I Corinthians 15:44-49)

Neglect of this important doctrine is the root of several heresies.

[Cross Reference]

Originally Posted by Nang

All human offspring of Adam have been imputed with his guilt by God. There is no innocent fetus or infant or medically challenged or healthy adult in existence, for all are declared guilty.

Was innocence ever declared guilty?

[tomlapalm]

There is no scriptural evidence for Creationism or Truducianism Both are speculation in regards to the origin of the soul.

Pre existance of souls or the guilt of sprititual beings as souls is throughout the scripture, if one can escape the tradition of man and rely of God rather than our feeble explanations.

Who is innocent? are we not condemned already?

In regard to the comments being made about Adam. We can consider the new and difficult ideas without going back to correct the basic.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

quit blaming Adam for our sins.

Sin entered mankind by Adam, just as if I put a sick goldfish in the aquarium. All my goldfish might not get sick but some might. but the sickness entered the aquarium by ONE, goldfish.

[tomlapalm]

Originally Posted by Nang

All human offspring of Adam have been imputed with his guilt by God. There is no innocent fetus or infant or medically challenged or healthy adult in existence, for all are declared guilty.

Why?

Because God created Adam as federal head (representative) of all men. Adam was accountable for the fate of all his earthly descendants when he volitionally sinned and cast himself and all his seed under the mastery and bondage to sin, death, and the devil.

Why?

Because the first Adam was created a type of the last Adam, Jesus Christ, who also was sent into this world as federal head (representative) of all the sons of promise given to Him by the Father. (I Corinthians 15:44-49)

Neglect of this important doctrine is the root of several heresies.

do the unborn who are killed go to hell without God allowing them an opportunity to even hear the Gospel, because of inherited sin guilt from Adam?

2Sa 12:22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell [whether] GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
2Sa 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me

[tomlapalm]

TTRUSCOTT said


Why did HE not rebuke their misconception about being able to sin before birth, so easily done? Maybe to hide pre-conception existence while giving the answer that his blindness was not a judgement?

AS for "a fetus who cannot sin:" Jacob and Esau were sinners in the womb, fighting so hard their mother prayed for help.

And if a foetus cannot sin ie has no sin, how could GOD pronounce judgement against them time and again, at the flood, at Soddam and Gomorrah and through all the time of genocide against Israel's pagan neighbours?

Only the guilty are judged.

Death is the wages for sin also means that the person who dies is proven to be a sinner, foetus or not.[quote]

if you can accept the position that we are the fallen with Satan, and thus sinners, before being offfered redeemption as human, then these questions don't have to be asked.

[tomlapalm]

Who actually sins the physical body or the soul?

[Nang]

Originally Posted by tomlapalm

do the unborn who are killed go to hell without God allowing them an opportunity to even hear the Gospel, because of inherited sin guilt from Adam?

Yes, because they are all conceived in iniquity. Psalm 51:5, 53:2-3, 58:3

There is no such thing as an " innocent" offspring from the first Adam.

All are sinners and fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3:19-23

Throughout the history of the world, there have been multitudes of persons who have died without ever hearing the gospel promises of God, let alone the name of Jesus Christ. Romans 9:22

It is the will of God that only a chosen remnant will hear and believe and be saved. Romans 9:23

[tomlapalm]

So it is your position that God puts a child here knowing that they will die without the opportunity to be saved, or God puts them here just to send them to hell even though He said
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance

[Nang]

Originally Posted by tomlapalm

So it is your position that God puts a child here knowing that they will die without the opportunity to be saved, or God puts them here just to send them to hell even though He said
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance

II Peter 3:9 is a promise made to the "all" the elect (the "us") for whom Christ died. Christ's atonement was not universal for all. Christ will not return until "all" Christ's elect are born in time and saved by His grace.

I believe in the doctrine of Limited Atonement for that is the inescapable and undeniable teaching of the Holy Scriptures.