ReligionDiscuss General Theology, Religions and Denominations, God's Attributes, Predestination and Free Will, Dispensationalism, Eschatology, Philosophy, Origins, Archaeology, Science, World History and other such topics.
Slogan/motto:
Being led into relationships by urgings of love which arise and are sustained naturally and spontaneously within my heart, is always 'God-righteous' even if I have to transgress the Ten Commandments.
Reputation:
July 24th, 2012, 08:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Untellectual
You are saying that Jesus existed (as Jesus?) before He was born.
John 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
John 17:5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Yes Jesus existed before he was born in a human physical body on earth. Jesus true form is 'the Truth' and Jesus existed in that form 'before the world was'.
The KJV N.T. confirms that Jesus is the Truth. The Truth is a set of ideas which are the mysteries of God's kingdom of heaven.
The Truth = the Word = Jesus = the mysteries of God's kingdom of heaven is first and only thing to come directly from God. This is the only begotten son of God.
Then from The Truth = the Word = Jesus = the mysteries of God's kingdom of heaven, all other things came including, the heaven, the earth, humans.
Jesus is not His Spirit and Jesus is not the physical man who was on earth. Jesus in purity is simply, the Truth, i.e. a set of ideas called the Truth.
Jesus' Spirit and Jesus' physical body are things which Jesus 'put on' or possessed. To function spiritually Jesus put on a spirit. This is how he equip and present Himself to serve spiritually aware humans. To function physically Jesus put on a physical body (temporarily). This is how He equip and present Himself to serve spiritually dead humans.
Jesus birth on earth in a human physical body was not the creation of Jesus. Jesus existed before in heaven with His Father. Jesus existed long before he was predestined by His Father to be born on earth in a human physical body. In fact Jesus was born out of God first before creation started.
This is confirmed in John 17:5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
'before the world was' means before 'the world came into being'. What existed then . . . 'the Word' or 'the Truth' which was with God. Then from the Word or the Truth came the heaven and the earth and Adam etc. etc.
John 17:5 confirmed that Jesus had glory before the world came into being. Therefore Jesus existed before the world started to exist . . . . . that is far far more than 2000 odd years ago!
. . . . . although Jesus came from heaven to earth in a physical human body only 2000 odd years ago and He left soon after to return to heaven.
In your question: "You are saying that Jesus existed (as Jesus?) before He was born.
I must ask: by the word, 'born', do you mean born on earth?
Fact is Jesus existed before the world was created, He was born from God first, only in His ideas body (i.e. without a spirit body and a physical body), before the world was born and He existed since then until now and He will exist until all eternity.
Jesus has an eternal side . . . . which some people seem to be totally unaware off. They look only at his temporal side.
Those who have communion with Jesus in His Spirit know that Jesus is eternal.
Those who do not have communion with Jesus in His Spirit try to convince everyone that Jesus is physical and temporal. This is blasphemy of the Spirit.
Last edited by Gurucam; July 24th, 2012 at 09:55 PM.
Slogan/motto:
Deuteronomy 6:6 (KJV) And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
Reputation:
July 24th, 2012, 10:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurucam
Yes Jesus existed before he was born in a human physical body on earth. Jesus true form is 'the Truth' and Jesus existed in that form 'before the world was'.
The KJV N.T. confirms that Jesus is the Truth. The Truth is a set of ideas which are the mysteries of God's kingdom of heaven.
The Truth = the Word = Jesus = the mysteries of God's kingdom of heaven is first and only thing to come directly from God. This is the only begotten son of God.
Then from The Truth = the Word = Jesus = the mysteries of God's kingdom of heaven, all other things came including, the heaven, the earth, humans.
Jesus is not His Spirit and Jesus is not the physical man who was on earth. Jesus in purity is simply, the Truth, i.e. a set of ideas called the Truth.
Jesus' Spirit and Jesus' physical body are things which Jesus 'put on' or possessed. To function spiritually Jesus put on a spirit. This is how he equip and present Himself to serve spiritually aware humans. To function physically Jesus put on a physical body (temporarily). This is how He equip and present Himself to serve spiritually dead humans.
Jesus birth on earth in a human physical body was not the creation of Jesus. Jesus existed before in heaven with His Father. Jesus existed long before he was predestined by His Father to be born on earth in a human physical body. In fact Jesus was born out of God first before creation started.
This is confirmed in John 17:5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
'before the world was' means before 'the world came into being'. What existed then . . . 'the Word' or 'the Truth' which was with God. Then from the Word or the Truth came the heaven and the earth and Adam etc. etc.
John 17:5 confirmed that Jesus had glory before the world came into being. Therefore Jesus existed before the world started to exist . . . . . that is far far more than 2000 odd years ago!
. . . . . although Jesus came from heaven to earth in a physical human body only 2000 odd years ago and He left soon after to return to heaven.
In your question: "You are saying that Jesus existed (as Jesus?) before He was born.
I must ask: by the word, 'born', do you mean born on earth?
Fact is Jesus existed before the world was created, He was born from God first, only in His ideas body (i.e. without a spirit body and a physical body), before the world was born and He existed since then until now and He will exist until all eternity.
Jesus has an eternal side . . . . which some people seem to be totally unaware off. They look only at his temporal side.
Those who have communion with Jesus in His Spirit know that Jesus is eternal.
Those who do not have communion with Jesus in His Spirit try to convince everyone that Jesus is physical and temporal. This is blasphemy of the Spirit.
I don't believe Jesus is a set of ideas, nor that He is temporal, but that He is physical. When was Jesus given His name?
Deuteronomy 10:12 (KJV) And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
Deuteronomy 10:13 (KJV) To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?
Slogan/motto:
Being led into relationships by urgings of love which arise and are sustained naturally and spontaneously within my heart, is always 'God-righteous' even if I have to transgress the Ten Commandments.
Reputation:
July 24th, 2012, 10:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Untellectual
I don't believe Jesus is a set of ideas, nor that He is temporal, but that He is physical. When was Jesus given His name?
It does not matter much what you and I believe.
Jesus is the Truth, the way and the life (John: 14 verse: 6).
These are the three expression of Jesus. As the Truth is is pure ideas or information (casual). As the way He is Spirit (spirit manifestation). As the life he is the example of a human on earth in a physical body (physical manifestation).
John 17:5 confirmed that Jesus had glory before the world came into being. Therefore Jesus existed before the world started to exist . . . . . that is far far more than 2000 odd years ago!
Slogan/motto:
Deuteronomy 6:6 (KJV) And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
Reputation:
July 24th, 2012, 10:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurucam
It does not matter much what you and I believe.
Jesus is the Truth
John 17:5 confirmed that Jesus had glory before the world came into being. Therefore Jesus existed before the world started to exist . . . . . that is far far more than 2000 odd years ago!
I believe Jesus is the truth.
When do you believe Jesus was named?
Deuteronomy 10:12 (KJV) And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
Deuteronomy 10:13 (KJV) To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?
Slogan/motto:
Being led into relationships by urgings of love which arise and are sustained naturally and spontaneously within my heart, is always 'God-righteous' even if I have to transgress the Ten Commandments.
Reputation:
July 24th, 2012, 11:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Untellectual
I believe Jesus is the truth.
When do you believe Jesus was named?
What is the Truth?
Jesus has many names. One of them is the Truth.
Truth has many names, depending on how where and when people know Him.
Which name do you ask about?
In the beginning before the world was created He was called the Word. John 17:5 confirmed that Jesus had glory before the world came into being. Therefore Jesus existed before the world started to exist. Then only the Word existed and the Word was with God. Therefore the reference here is to Jesus as the Word.
After that Jesus or the Word became manifested in a spirit body.
When He was manifested in a spirit he was called the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost or the Spirit of Jesus or the Spirit of Truth.
When Jesus manifested in a physical body on earth, among those people, he was called Jesus.
However in fact Jesus is purely the Truth.
Jesus is the Truth, the way and the life (John: 14 verse: 6).
These are the three expressions of Jesus. As the Truth He is pure ideas or information (casual). As the way He is Spirit (spirit manifestation). As the life he is the example of a human on earth in a physical body (physical manifestation).
Some humans can know or detect Jesus on all three levels (ideas, spirit and physical i.e. like no one in the bible). Some only on two levels (physical and spiritual, i.e. like Paul) and some only on one level (physical only, i.e. like Peter).
Here look!!!, at what these verses say. Let us not pervert them. Let us take them to their literal meaning:
* John: 1 verse: 1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
* John: 1 verse: 14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
* John: 17 verse: 5 - "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
. . . . . see, Jesus' first name is "the Word" and see how far back He was named, with that first name.
. . . . . now it is not me saying so, eh! Fact is my beliefs do not count. Revelations as recorded in the KJV N.T. say so, literally.
Therefore when Jesus was on earth in a human physical body He was the word made flesh. This seems to confirm that Jesus was simply All the word for creating sustaining and dissolving every thing in the creation. And this Word is from God and came to exist in a human physical body. He simply came to earth in a human physical body for a visit.
Last edited by Gurucam; July 25th, 2012 at 07:01 AM.
Slogan/motto:
Being led into relationships by urgings of love which arise and are sustained naturally and spontaneously within my heart, is always 'God-righteous' even if I have to transgress the Ten Commandments.
Reputation:
July 25th, 2012, 09:56 AM
Untellectual
The first identity of Jesus:
KJV N.T. John:
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
It would be nice if you would render these verses in your own words as an explanation to all who read your posts.
Last edited by Gurucam; July 25th, 2012 at 10:29 AM.
Slogan/motto:
Deuteronomy 6:6 (KJV) And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
Reputation:
July 25th, 2012, 10:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurucam
Which name do you ask about?
The name of Jesus.
Deuteronomy 10:12 (KJV) And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
Deuteronomy 10:13 (KJV) To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?
Slogan/motto:
Being led into relationships by urgings of love which arise and are sustained naturally and spontaneously within my heart, is always 'God-righteous' even if I have to transgress the Ten Commandments.
Reputation:
July 25th, 2012, 04:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Untellectual
The name of Jesus.
He was first called 'the Word'. He was called 'the word' before the world was created. After that first description, He was called by other descriptive nouns, like 'Jesus'. His name always conformed to to the manner of his manifestation at the particular time.
'The Word' describes all the knowledge or ideas which cover the mysteries of God's kingdom of heaven. Jesus, from the beginning and thereafter for all eternity, is the mysteries of God's kingdom of heaven, in totality, accuracy and clarity simply as ideas. At first God held these ideas.
Then from God these ideas (called Jesus) flowed out to be the first begotten son of God. The first begotten son of God are these ideas called Jesus. Then from these idea (called Jesus) everything else was born and now sustains the creation.
In order for these ideas (called Jesus) to become the creation, these ideas (called Jesus) had to to give rise to a spirit. This spirit is called the Holy Spirit, the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Jesus, the Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of the Word and/or the Spirit. These ideas called Jesus cannot become the material creation without operating through a spirit which are that mentioned above, carrying all those descriptions. Jesus operates from within the Spirit perpetually recreating and sustaining and dissolving the creation according to the will of God and the will of humans at the level of their own individual spirits. Those who can and do search their hearts or spirit to know what the Spirit of Jesus has in mind for them to pray for say and do, become aware of the flow of creation as determined by Jesus in accordance with God's will and their own needs, desires and aspiration at the level of their own spirits or hearts.
Jesus who is the mysteries of God's kingdom of heaven, in totality, accuracy and clarity simply as ideas, simultaneously exists in a Spirit (i.e. the Holy Spirit). Through this Spirit Jesus created and now sustains the entire creation. Then at times, while all also simultaneously holding himself as ideas and as Spirit, Jesus also comes to earth in a human physical body. He will have different description (i.e. names) at each of these occasions and/or forums.
Last edited by Gurucam; July 26th, 2012 at 08:29 AM.
His name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6
THE NAME OF JESUS
The name of Jesus is so sweet,
I love its music to repeat;
It makes my joys full and complete,
The precious name of Jesus!
I love the name of Him whose heart
Knows all my griefs and bears a part;
Who bids all anxious fears depart,
I love the name of Jesus!
That name I fondly love to hear,
It never fails my heart to cheer;
Its music dries the falling tear,
Exalt the name of Jesus!
No word of man can ever tell
How sweet the name I love so well;
O let its praises ever swell,
O praise the name of Jesus!
Jesus, O how sweet the name!
Jesus, every day the same;
Jesus, let all saints proclaim
Its worthy praise forever!
.....O LORD my God, in You I put my trust. Psalm 7:1
.....To You, O LORD, I lift up my soul. Psalm 25:1
Too often we underestimate the power of a touch, a smile, a kind word, a listening ear, an honest compliment, or the smallest act of caring, all of which have the potential to turn a life around. ~ Leo Buscaglia
From Genesis to Malachi
"Who is this Jesus?''
Consider these themes from the Old Testament
Jesus In the Old Testament…
In Genesis, He is the Creator God
In Exodus, He is the Redeemer
In Leviticus, He is the High Priest
In Numbers, He is our light and guide
In Deuteronomy, He is our teacher
In Joshua, He is the mighty conqueror
In Judges, He gives victory over enemies
In Ruth, He is our Kinsman-Redeemer
In I Samuel, He is the Root of Jesse
In 2 Samuel, He is the Son of David
In Kings, He is King of Kings, Lord of Lords
In Chronicles, He is our reigning King
In Ezra, He is our Faithful Scribe
In Nehemiah, He is our Rebuilder
In Esther, He is our Mordecai
In Job, He is our Ever-Living Redeemer
In Psalms, He is our Shepherd and Song
In Proverbs, He is our Wisdom
In Ecclesiastes, He is our time and purpose
In the Song of Solomon, He is our Lover
In Isaiah, He is our everything
In Jeremiah, He is our balm of Gilead
In Lamentations, He is the Ever-Faithful One
In Ezekiel, He is our wheel in a wheel
In Daniel, He is the Fourth Man
In Hosea, He is the Faithful Husband
In Joel, He is our Refuge
In Amos, He is our Burden-Bearer
In Obadiah, He is the Mighty to Save
In Jonah, He is our Salvation
In Micah, He is the Messenger
In Nahum, He is the our Avenger
In Habakkuk, He is the Holy One
In Zephaniah, He is the Witness
In Haggai, He is the Restorer
In Zechariah, He is Lord of Hosts, the Fountain
Malachi, the Sun of Righteous
.....O LORD my God, in You I put my trust. Psalm 7:1
.....To You, O LORD, I lift up my soul. Psalm 25:1
Too often we underestimate the power of a touch, a smile, a kind word, a listening ear, an honest compliment, or the smallest act of caring, all of which have the potential to turn a life around. ~ Leo Buscaglia
From Matthew to Revelation
"Who is this Jesus?''
Consider these themes from the New Testament
Jesus in The New Testament…
In Matthew, He is king Messiah
In Mark, He is the Servant
In Luke, He is the Son of Man, the Great Physician
In John, He is the Son of God
In Acts, Holy Spirit and power
In Romans, He is the Justifier
In 1 Corinthians, He is the Triumphant Victor
In 2 Corinthians, He the Seen in the Unseen
In Galatians, He is our Liberty
In Ephesians, He is the Head of the Church
In Philippians, He is our Joy and Supplier
In Colossians, He is the fullness of the Godhead
In 1 Thessalonians, He is our Hope
In 2 Thessalonians, He is our Glory
In 1 Timothy, He is our Faith
In 2 Timothy, He is our stability
Titus, He is our Faithful Pastor
In Philemon, He is our Faithful Friend
In Hebrews, He is our Perfection
In James, He is the power behind our faith
In 1 Peter, He is our example
In 2 Peter, He is our purity
In 1 John, He is our love and life
In 2 John, He is our pattern
In 3 John, He is our motivation
In Jude, He is the foundation of our faith
In the Revelation, He is our coming King
.....O LORD my God, in You I put my trust. Psalm 7:1
.....To You, O LORD, I lift up my soul. Psalm 25:1
Too often we underestimate the power of a touch, a smile, a kind word, a listening ear, an honest compliment, or the smallest act of caring, all of which have the potential to turn a life around. ~ Leo Buscaglia
He is Jesus, the Christ, the Son of Living God, our Savior, our Companion, our Champion, The Captain of the army of heaven, Lord and King!
.....O LORD my God, in You I put my trust. Psalm 7:1
.....To You, O LORD, I lift up my soul. Psalm 25:1
Too often we underestimate the power of a touch, a smile, a kind word, a listening ear, an honest compliment, or the smallest act of caring, all of which have the potential to turn a life around. ~ Leo Buscaglia
Last edited by Psalmist; July 26th, 2012 at 04:13 AM.
Slogan/motto:
Deuteronomy 6:6 (KJV) And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
Reputation:
July 25th, 2012, 07:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurucam
He was first called 'the Word'. He was called 'the word' before the world was created. After that first description, He was called by other descriptive nouns, like 'Jesus'. His name always conformed to to the manner of his manifestation at the particular time.
Some babies are named after they are born, and some are named before they are born?
Deuteronomy 10:12 (KJV) And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
Deuteronomy 10:13 (KJV) To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?
Slogan/motto:
Being led into relationships by urgings of love which arise and are sustained naturally and spontaneously within my heart, is always 'God-righteous' even if I have to transgress the Ten Commandments.
Reputation:
July 26th, 2012, 04:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Untellectual
Some babies are named after they are born, and some are named before they are born?
Babies existed before they are brought forth to earth. They are not created at birth. They are simply brought forth in human physical bodies.
They may have had names before (they came into zygotes), most probably. They certainly had existence before they came into zygotes.
Others can be named in the mother's womb before birth. It happens.Most, it seems, are named after their birth.
All that human parents do, with respect to bring forth children, is to provide a physical human body for a preexisting person so that he or she can come and live on earth in a physical human body.
Everyone has a choice to bring forth either a child from heaven (i.e. a child of God) or a child from earth (i.e. a child of the flesh), through their physical procreative sexual act.
When couples are led into their sexual procreative act by the Spirit, at all events, they bring forth a child of God from heaven. When they are led into their physical sexual procreative act only by urgings of the flesh, at all events, (even if they were upholding the law properly) they bring forth a child of the flesh from the region of earth.
Children of God from heaven have lives in heaven, before they are born on earth, therefore they will have names in heaven. These names would be descriptions of their spiritual inclinations and spiritual characters.
Last edited by Gurucam; July 26th, 2012 at 04:54 AM.
Slogan/motto:
Being led into relationships by urgings of love which arise and are sustained naturally and spontaneously within my heart, is always 'God-righteous' even if I have to transgress the Ten Commandments.
Reputation:
July 26th, 2012, 06:18 AM
Untellectual, About naming. It is said that the American Indians were more in touch with their past spiritual roots than their white counterparts.
This story might help you to understand the ideas of naming.
Quote:
.
An American Indian boy came back home after his first day at school and asked his father,, 'Father how come all the white boys have short names like Jim, John, Tom and we Indians have such long ones like, Crazy Horse, Sitting Bull, Thunder Cloud?"
'You see my son, the white people are new. They do not have ancient traditions. Their names have no significant; they are just casually picked up where as for us a name, like every thing else has meaning, a poetic significance, which is inspired by the moment when a woman becomes pregnant.
For example, take your elder brother, your mother and I were making love under the nest of a beautiful eagle when he was conceived, so when he was born we called him Grey Eagle. And we called your sister Moon Ray because she was conceived during the full moon when the silvery light was filtering through the opening of our wigwam.
"That son is the beauty and significance of our customs. Do you understand now, Leaking Condom?"
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