ReligionDiscuss General Theology, Religions and Denominations, God's Attributes, Predestination and Free Will, Dispensationalism, Eschatology, Philosophy, Origins, Archaeology, Science, World History and other such topics.
Which makes all the details that support a global flood made up..
Not "made up," but explained as if a parable about what factually happened but avoiding the direct statements concerning the mass extinction of the previous other 22 now extinct species of man because the people until this Age could not relate to other more direct writings on the matter.
We see this as a writers use of Literary Arts in Gulliver's Travels, for instance, where the apparent story is really about a criticism of poqerful men and institutions which could not be vilified or questioned more directly.
Dr. Suess and Alice in Wonderland are other examples where this technique of communication can be fouind.
Rhetorical device doesn't cut it, says you. Who died and crowned you Pope, may I ask?
The biblical writers are perfectly capable of using such devices (as I demonstrated with the quote from Mark) and there is no reason to believe they weren't using such a device even here.
Peace,
Michael
The real issue is whether one begins reading Genesis with the assumption that it is factually correct and ought correpond directly with the facts as revealed by AScience, or whether one has heard the archaic long existing medieval Bible interpretations of Genesis derived from ancestors who had no clue about the actrual facts of Creation, no desire to doubt the simplistic fairt tale like presentation found in genesis, and not enough tangible concrete evidence yet to even image any different interpretation.
For christians, the choice ought be easy, that the OLD wine of long dead Bible interpretors were naive, and the Scriptires are 100% FACTUALLY correct as I have shown to be the case if read maturally today.
The real issue is whether one begins reading Genesis with the assumption that it is factually correct .
Good point. Because it isn't an assumption. I don't look to prove the Bible. I use the Bible to prove or disprove a theory. It is the authority on "The Begining".
Good point. Because it isn't an assumption. I don't look to prove the Bible. I use the Bible to prove or disprove a theory. It is the authority on "The Begining".
Even for atheists and bible critics convinced that it is not scientific, what they have heard the church people say, they need read what it actually says.
The Church people supply archaic medieval ideas about their own "book report" on the Bible.
One OUGHT, in fairness, read the Scriptures for themselves, with a fresh look, devoid of any of the things they heard in Sunday School or from the mouths of church people.
Good point. Because it isn't an assumption. I don't look to prove the Bible. I use the Bible to prove or disprove a theory. It is the authority on "The Begining".
... also, we need emphasize that until 1940 when Hubble found concrete evidence to support a Big Bang Beginning, even scientists argued whether or no the Universe had a beginning or had always been there.
Genesis did not quibble and is direct and marked in stone on this Fact now universally understood and agreed to.
Do you believe the main point of the theory that states Pangaea was one land mass or not? I don't even care about small details. Be warned, the Bible says it is so. And one large ocean.
Clearly I'm not as convinced by ancient scripture as you are Nick, but if it helps we can agree that it was, but when it was is probably a very different matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick M
Well, there isn't a gopher tree. So it must mean something other than it seems on the surface. There isn't a ply tree either, but we have plywood. You don't suppose that was some sort of process do you?
Plywood is simply manufactured layers (plys) of glued wood btw.
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Originally Posted by Nick M
Tanks? Why have tanks? Fish were not taken on the ark. If you want to debate something, at least be familiar with what the Bible says. What happens when you mix salt water with fresh water? Like at a delta from a large river that dumps into the ocean.
So how salty was the resulting sea then? Do you really think a drastic change in salinity either way coupled with the complete loss of natural habitat allowed all aquatic life to survive as usual without Noah's help? Tropical fish say are never going to survive in less than ideal conditions.
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Originally Posted by Nick M
But what of tropical fish they can be a real problem since like much marine life they could never have survived a deep ocean or loss of habitat. What about the life cycle of salmon without rivers? We will get to that when you tell me what happens when they mix.
Brackish perhaps given the amounts of water involved today. But for a global flood it would be anyone's guess, depending on the origin of all that extra water.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick M
Like I said, at least make yourself familiar with what the Bible says, then we can talk about it. You are asking questions where the answers are already laid out.
I don't really have to take the word of allegorical ancient scripture since natural sciences show pretty well that no global flood has ever happened at least for billions of years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick M
How many animals, lets go with the size of something that a lion can eat-like a sheep-can fit on the ark? Your best guess since you claim to think about it.
More than two sheep then presumably required. Dinosaur meat perhaps?
If then as it seems you don't think about the practicalities too much yourself then it's perhaps because even you know it just doesn't add up.
You should read again why your opinions on this issue are so roundly rejected.
I will only revisit your claims if you agree to address the real evidences presented in my posts, and leave behind the "you're an idiot" argument, Stripe.
I have no reason to reject a global flood, seeing it is possible for the laws of the universe to break from the normal as seen in joshua 10:13. Noah was living in the region of Mesopotamia and according to the hebrew, the word "earth" can also refer to a land or country. What are your thoughts?
It was likely local. There is evidence of the East undergoing a flood around the time of Noah.
One of these evidences are found in the fact that this flood is told of in mostly all middle/eastern societies of the time- societies whom didn't lope much with each other. Most especially, it shows up in Chinese literature.
My own impulse is to give the authors of scripture some credit (they were not ignoramuses who needed the "Enlightenment" to show them how to see the world rightly).
Peace,
Michael
The Enlightenment may not have meant anything to ancient Jews, but ignoramuses they certainly were.
I believe the geology supports and old earth view. I believe that evolution exists but not out side of God's control. I believe that Genesis is not a literal book but an allegorical book where God describes to sheep herder who has no grasp of the world as we do today the order in which God created things.
I believe that we were created in God's image and as such, we have the capacity to observe and understand God's creation. I do not believe God lied to us be making the earth look old when it is in fact young.
I believe in Jesus as my Lord and Savior. I believe that God raised Jesus from the dead to redeem us. Being and old earth creationist does not preclude me from being a Christian.
I respect you trying to explain to me, and I am sorry if I was rather brusque.
If I tell you something you may either like it or hate it
because of the position you have put yourself in when trying to straddle both the current popular science opinion (I stress opinion, not fact) and your Christianity.
Have you ever heard Richard Feynman?
Well, please hear him speak here:
Yes, he is good. But he should be, shouldn't he?
A genius and a physicist who helped develop the bomb.
And a man who has a conscience, it seems - for he went in to a severe depression it is said after the bomb, and that lasted for years.
I felt sorry for him. He is gone now. This film touches my heart.
Because - he doesn't have faith, precious faith.
And because he has honesty, you will hear him say a number of things, but mainly from 131 to 136 or so
You will hear this:
Quote:
Now there are very remarkable mysteries about the fact
that we are able to do so many more things than apparently animals can do.
You may not hear biologists talk like that. Or any evolutionist talk like that.
Evolutionary biologists can amaze you with how close our DNA is to the Chimp DNA -- but they cannot find where or why or how
we are so different.
Did you you know that?
Stick a pin to them and they will tell you they know it is there in the DNA somewhere. But keep pressing and they may tell you they are looking as hard as they can and shut up!
So you said..
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Originally Posted by CabinetMaker
I believe the geology supports and old earth view.
Huh. You mean like currently biology can support how similar we are to chimps but cannot support we are different?
I'm so sorry.
I hate to stick the knife in but today's science is looking for a breakthrough.
And as remarkable as DNA study is, it is having a heck of a time dealing with one human string being so different from another human strand and can't find yet what makes us soooo different from a chimp..
If you asked them they would rather tell you how much alike we are.
Which you will have to discuss that with a chimp not me for I am a creationist and I totally disagree with that pathetic position..
And only a genius physicist who felt guilty about the creation of the bomb will even admit to you as a scientist who does not believe that the difference between what we can do as humans and animals is a "very remarkable mysterious fact."
Mysterious.
And you think geology is having better luck?
With finding the obvious?
I have no reason to reject a global flood, seeing it is possible for the laws of the universe to break from the normal as seen in joshua 10:13. Noah was living in the region of Mesopotamia and according to the hebrew, the word "earth" can also refer to a land or country. What are your thoughts?
Noah's Flood was a large local flood. It seems clear from scripture.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; Ephesians 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. [NASB]
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