[PureX]

Originally Posted by chatmaggot

The more the public is aided...the less they are inclined to work harder.

Yeah, lots of people think that, but it's not actually true. Given the choice, almost no one would choose welfare over a decent paying job. And your own frugality aside, it depends a whole lot on where you live. There are a lot of places in this country where you won't even be able to afford an efficiency apartment in a bad neighborhood at minimum wage. And if you're a woman, you can't live in those neighborhoods, anyway. And you're forgetting the giant elephant of health insurance. Anyone who needs medicines or regular visits to a doctor can't take any kind of any job without losing their access to medicaid. And if the job doesn't provide good health care insurance with very low deductibles, they simply can't accept the job.

[Cracked]

Originally Posted by LKmommy

You refer to a society needing "slaves". What society, whose principles? A large hungry power machine of a Government that wants all to distribute as only they see fit?

Greed is, overwhelmingly, the driving factor in our economy. Sometimes this works out well for many--the desire to make it big or become rich drives innovation. Other times, it works out well for only a few. Don't believe me? Think outsourcing jobs. When the corporations balk at minimum wages, they find ways to export jobs. Now, you can see this as a good thing--they give jobs to people who desperately need them in poorer countries. However, they usually pay very little, and the jobs often lack humane regulation so it is even more like slavery (think Apple, Nike, many coffee companies, etc.). Its math really--the more you save on expenses, including payroll, the more you make for yourself and your investors. That is why Americans higher many illegal workers. I am not advocating the doomsday government you most certainly dread. I am advocating practical justice in the richest country in the world.

Originally Posted by LKmommy

Speaking of how deterministic "most Americans" are...who is the "we" you speak of and respectfully I ask you "who is on first"?

All of us. "We", in this case, includes you.

Originally Posted by LKmommy

When did the first domino fall to cause the succession of detrimental outcomes of the people at or below the poverty line. *Please keep in mind I do not believe the USA knows of the poverty of other Countries (ALATE is worried about kids going to extracurricular activities when some worry about fresh water or food).

This idea that because we don't have (many) people dying in the streets we somehow should not regulate what we do have is preposterous. If we did not provide a safety net, we would have people dying in the streets. Some seem to think that 3rd world countries are the model. Mexico has to be the ultra conservatives paradise--little in the way of enforced regulation, and very little in the way of a social services. However, I think guns are illegal...

Originally Posted by LKmommy

100% in agreement with you.

Good.

Originally Posted by LKmommy

However, if one has no major physical or emotional disablity they can still contribute SOMEWHERE.....contribute instead of well doing NOTHING. What does the Bible say about a man who can work but chooses not to....they should (___________)fill in the blank please!

Let me change that for you a bit: If a man works, he shall _________. Now, consider the word eat and stretch the imagination to make that word a bit broader and possibly include other things that people need.... Regardless, many do work, but make very little, or move from job to job because they lack certain skills. Most of the jobs they can get are minimum wage with no benefits. Yet, the vast majority of the people in the US are fed--and that is a good thing. However, they do not all have their basic needs met, and if they are met it is through an unsustainable system that does not function as it could because it is constantly sniped at by detractors.

Originally Posted by LKmommy

The current design of Welfare and dependence on Big Daddy has created the current level/standard/measure of the poverty line....which determines who qualifies to have their basic needs met and those who do not.

If a person engages in honest work to the best of their ability they should have their basic needs met. If they are disabled, ill, a child, elderly, or disenfranchised/excluded/persecuted, then this would typically mean that they are unable to engage in the type of work that would result in having their basic needs met. These people too should have their needs met. It is not really complicated, conceptually at any rate.

Originally Posted by LKmommy

SO AGAIN....when you say deterministic, are you speaking literally?

I am saying that your abilities and potential are determined more by genetics, family, society, upbringing, etc. than you will likely admit.

Originally Posted by LKmommy

Who says? You? I can respectfully say I do not adhere to that type of logic or mentality.

Then perhaps you do not adhere to history, or present reality. Tell me, what would happen if, all of a sudden, companies started paying their employees sufficient wages and providing reasonable health benefits and retirement? Some companies would go out of business! Others would see a dramatic decrease in the money paid to those at the top and investors. Do you think that most businesses are going to go that route willingly? Those that are threatened with closing up shop should certainly not go that route, and that is why something needs to be done collectively to insure the well being of their employees.

[voltaire]

Does it make sense that the financial sector, which produces nothing is financially rewarded to such an extreme degree.

The financial system may not swing a hammer or clean a table, but without the financial system, there would be far fewer hammers swinging and far fewer tables being cleaned. The war on the financial system including measures like the Dodd-Frank bill , have had the opposite effect on those whom they were supposedly meant to help. You have to finance a used car now in TN for less than 24 months and at an interest rate that makes monthly payments of 700.

[Nick M]

Originally Posted by Cracked

Greed is, overwhelmingly, the driving factor in our economy.

Yeah, and?

Sometimes this works out well for many--

Or with the United States, it has worked out well for the world. But now that we are sinking from our welfare state, we are dragging the world back down again.

the desire to make it big or become rich drives innovation.

Yep. The dark ages and other times in history that were unprofitable were welfare states. The economic class you were born in is where you died.

Other times, it works out well for only a few.

The few being the government.

[Ktoyou]

Much of it is corporate outsourcing. Face it, it costs less to pay those who live in a less costly society. Want to do something about it, pass tariffs in outsourcing work and imports of goods, yet you will see another problems soon arise.

[noguru]

Originally Posted by Ktoyou

Much of it is corporate outsourcing. Face it, it costs less to pay those who live in a less costly society. Want to do something about it, pass tariffs in outsourcing work and imports of goods, yet you will see another problems soon arise.

Be careful what you wish for, it might come true.

[highlife]

Originally Posted by voltaire

The financial system may not swing a hammer or clean a table, but without the financial system, there would be far fewer hammers swinging and far fewer tables being cleaned. The war on the financial system including measures like the Dodd-Frank bill , have had the opposite effect on those whom they were supposedly meant to help. You have to finance a used car now in TN for less than 24 months and at an interest rate that makes monthly payments of 700.

If people stopped financing stuff the cost of goods would come down, the financial sector by in large truely is a dredge on society.

Back in the day financing was only done for grand projects like the rail road or other huge infrastructure, not to buy a horse. The financial sector has artificially inflated the prices of EVERYTHING. Now instead of saving for a reasonable amount of time to buy something you have to sign an indentured servitude contract becasue otherwise you will be saving for a decade or more to buy things like a house, car, etc. Even when you signed an indentured servitude contract back in the day the work was gaurenteed, now days employers could care less what kind of contracts you have.

The level of shrewdness required to do well in this day and time in this nation is unprecidented, I always feel like i cant afford to relax without being eaten alive.

[lifeisgood]

Originally Posted by noguru

In a vast anonymous society like ours there are many people who don't see too many other people and have no relatives or have been estranged from them. We have people who are like shut ins, or have mental issues that would limit the number of people that want to help. What do you propose we do for people like that?

Truthfully, you can only help some people. How are we going to help those that we do not know that they have an issue such as mental problems?

I give myself as an example:

If when people who know you, and are considered to be your "friends", know that something has happened to you, and they do not come to your aid, like in my case, how can anyone expect that strangers would, when strangers who do not know you and have no idea what has happened to you?

To put it another way, how can a stranger know that I was OK one moment, working, had just gotten a promotion, doing the everyday things, and the next couple of minutes, because of convulsions that came out of the blue, getting very close to dying, and when I came out of the convulsions, I am not able to walk, talk, eat, take care of myself?

I am still waiting for all those who knew me, there were many, to come and visit me or pick up the phone and ask how I am doing.

Fifteen years has passed and not one of my "friends" has cared to even find out if I am OK.

From my "friends" I expected something. From strangers, I CANNOT expect anything for they do not know me or of me.

The only ones who stayed with me were the Lord and my spouse of now, 36 years. May the Lord bless and protect my spouse. If it wasn't for my spouse, I would not be here causing trouble.

The Devil wanted to destroy me and he almost was able to do so, but I have never been so blessed in my whole life. I was supposed to be dead but I am still alive. I was supposed to be homeless but I am still living in my house. I was supposed not to be able to walk, talk, etc., but praise the Lord I can walk, talk, and now can take care of my own physical needs.

But the person I was died. I cannot do the things I used to do. I have "blackouts" where darkness comes. A few years ago one of these "blackouts" happened as I was going down the stairs and when I came back I was laying down at the bottom of the stairs with a broken foot.

And the thing is that no CT Scan, no MRI, no EEG, etc. has shown anything wrong and the doctors cannot pinpoint why I have blackouts. I get totally dehydrated without diarrhea or vomiting and end up in the hospital.

After a couple of years of being in bed without being able to do anything, I started being able to get out of bed.

I began to feel "guilty" that I had not called some of my friends. So, I called my "best" friend and explained to her what had happened to me and for her to forgive me for me not being able to call her for the past two years. Her response? "Well, the saying is true. 'Out of sight, out of mind.'"

Another of my "best" friends when I called her said, "I have better things to do than to be listening to you."

So, NOW, I EXPECT NOTHING FROM ANYBODY, because being that the people I considered to be my friends could care less about me, there are no friends in my circles.

There was no difference between my Christian friends and my worldly friends. I received the same treatment. "You got sick, deal with it. Not my problem."

So, I ask again, how could/can a stranger help you if they do not know you, or your situation, when your own, who know you and your situation, do not care for you?

Besides Jesus said that there would always be "poor' people. I take that to mean not only people who do not have money but those who are in situations like mine. There will not be help for everybody.

However, God is good! To Him be all the Glory and the Power and the Honor! Eternity will not be enough time to thank the Lord for all that He has done, and continues to do, for me.

[noguru]

Originally Posted by lifeisgood

Truthfully, you can only help some people. How are we going to help those that we do not know that they have an issue such as mental problems?

I give myself as an example:

If when people who know you, and are considered to be your "friends", know that something has happened to you, and they do not come to your aid, like in my case, how can anyone expect that strangers would, when strangers who do not know you and have no idea what has happened to you?

To put it another way, how can a stranger know that I was OK one moment, working, had just gotten a promotion, doing the everyday things, and the next couple of minutes, because of convulsions that came out of the blue, getting very close to dying, and when I came out of the convulsions, I am not able to walk, talk, eat, take care of myself?

I am still waiting for all those who knew me, there were many, to come and visit me or pick up the phone and ask how I am doing.

Fifteen years has passed and not one of my "friends" has cared to even find out if I am OK.

From my "friends" I expected something. From strangers, I CANNOT expect anything for they do not know me or of me.

The only ones who stayed with me were the Lord and my spouse of now, 36 years. May the Lord bless and protect my spouse. If it wasn't for my spouse, I would not be here causing trouble.

The Devil wanted to destroy me and he almost was able to do so, but I have never been so blessed in my whole life. I was supposed to be dead but I am still alive. I was supposed to be homeless but I am still living in my house. I was supposed not to be able to walk, talk, etc., but praise the Lord I can walk, talk, and now can take care of my own physical needs.

But the person I was died. I cannot do the things I used to do. I have "blackouts" where darkness comes. A few years ago one of these "blackouts" happened as I was going down the stairs and when I came back I was laying down at the bottom of the stairs with a broken foot.

And the thing is that no CT Scan, no MRI, no EEG, etc. has shown anything wrong and the doctors cannot pinpoint why I have blackouts. I get totally dehydrated without diarrhea or vomiting and end up in the hospital.

After a couple of years of being in bed without being able to do anything, I started being able to get out of bed.

I began to feel "guilty" that I had not called some of my friends. So, I called my "best" friend and explained to her what had happened to me and for her to forgive me for me not being able to call her for the past two years. Her response? "Well, the saying is true. 'Out of sight, out of mind.'"

Another of my "best" friends when I called her said, "I have better things to do than to be listening to you."

So, NOW, I EXPECT NOTHING FROM ANYBODY, because being that the people I considered to be my friends could care less about me, there are no friends in my circles.

There was no difference between my Christian friends and my worldly friends. I received the same treatment. "You got sick, deal with it. Not my problem."

So, I ask again, how could/can a stranger help you if they do not know you, or your situation, when your own, who know you and your situation, do not care for you?

Besides Jesus said that there would always be "poor' people. I take that to mean not only people who do not have money but those who are in situations like mine. There will not be help for everybody.

However, God is good! To Him be all the Glory and the Power and the Honor! Eternity will not be enough time to thank the Lord for all that He has done, and continues to do, for me.

It helps one's mental state to not have expectations of others. I entirely agree that we should check our expectations at the door. However, when someone does offer a hand in such situations we are very grateful that another took the time to care and help out in whatever way they can.

In FL I had 2 elderly neighbors. One was resentful because she became disillusioned based on her expectations not being filled. Helping her was troublesome, and nothing I or an one did was good enough. The other woman had little or no expectations, and was grateful for any help people would give her. I know that we should not be helping people based on these attitudes, but realistically helping the later person ended up receiving more help, because being around her was like a breath of fresh air.

So although I agree with you about having very few people to rely upon, I think it is very important that people are grateful for what help they do receive. If all people were grateful we would not have people dependent on welfare. But this does not mean we should ignore all people simply because some have a very poor attitude.

P.S. If I lived near you, I would definitely come over and help out in any way I could.

[highlife]

Originally Posted by lifeisgood

Truthfully, you can only help some people. How are we going to help those that we do not know that they have an issue such as mental problems?

I give myself as an example:

If when people who know you, and are considered to be your "friends", know that something has happened to you, and they do not come to your aid, like in my case, how can anyone expect that strangers would, when strangers who do not know you and have no idea what has happened to you?

To put it another way, how can a stranger know that I was OK one moment, working, had just gotten a promotion, doing the everyday things, and the next couple of minutes, because of convulsions that came out of the blue, getting very close to dying, and when I came out of the convulsions, I am not able to walk, talk, eat, take care of myself?

I am still waiting for all those who knew me, there were many, to come and visit me or pick up the phone and ask how I am doing.

Fifteen years has passed and not one of my "friends" has cared to even find out if I am OK.

From my "friends" I expected something. From strangers, I CANNOT expect anything for they do not know me or of me.

The only ones who stayed with me were the Lord and my spouse of now, 36 years. May the Lord bless and protect my spouse. If it wasn't for my spouse, I would not be here causing trouble.

The Devil wanted to destroy me and he almost was able to do so, but I have never been so blessed in my whole life. I was supposed to be dead but I am still alive. I was supposed to be homeless but I am still living in my house. I was supposed not to be able to walk, talk, etc., but praise the Lord I can walk, talk, and now can take care of my own physical needs.

But the person I was died. I cannot do the things I used to do. I have "blackouts" where darkness comes. A few years ago one of these "blackouts" happened as I was going down the stairs and when I came back I was laying down at the bottom of the stairs with a broken foot.

And the thing is that no CT Scan, no MRI, no EEG, etc. has shown anything wrong and the doctors cannot pinpoint why I have blackouts. I get totally dehydrated without diarrhea or vomiting and end up in the hospital.

After a couple of years of being in bed without being able to do anything, I started being able to get out of bed.

I began to feel "guilty" that I had not called some of my friends. So, I called my "best" friend and explained to her what had happened to me and for her to forgive me for me not being able to call her for the past two years. Her response? "Well, the saying is true. 'Out of sight, out of mind.'"

Another of my "best" friends when I called her said, "I have better things to do than to be listening to you."

So, NOW, I EXPECT NOTHING FROM ANYBODY, because being that the people I considered to be my friends could care less about me, there are no friends in my circles.

There was no difference between my Christian friends and my worldly friends. I received the same treatment. "You got sick, deal with it. Not my problem."

So, I ask again, how could/can a stranger help you if they do not know you, or your situation, when your own, who know you and your situation, do not care for you?

Besides Jesus said that there would always be "poor' people. I take that to mean not only people who do not have money but those who are in situations like mine. There will not be help for everybody.

However, God is good! To Him be all the Glory and the Power and the Honor! Eternity will not be enough time to thank the Lord for all that He has done, and continues to do, for me.

I think it is strange that this whole post is almost purposly gender neutral.

[lifeisgood]

Originally Posted by noguru

It helps one's mental state to not have expectations of others. I entirely agree that we should check our expectations at the door. However, when someone does offer a hand in such situations we are very grateful that another took the time to care and help out in whatever way they can.

Absolutely yes. I am always grateful no matter what.

Originally Posted by noguru

In FL I had 2 elderly neighbors. One was resentful because she became disillusioned based on her expectations not being filled. Helping her was troublesome, and nothing I or an one did was good enough.

I know a couple family members like this lady.

Originally Posted by noguru

The other woman had little or no expectations, and was grateful for any help people would give her.

That is nice.

Originally Posted by noguru

I know that we should not be helping people based on these attitudes, but realistically helping the later person ended up receiving more help, because being around her was like a breath of fresh air.

I agree, attitude is everything.

Originally Posted by noguru

So although I agree with you about having very few people to rely upon, I think it is very important that people are grateful for what help they do receive.

I am always so grateful for what I receive. The Lord has been so good to me.

Originally Posted by noguru

If all people were grateful we would not have people dependent on welfare.

I tend to agree with this statement.

Originally Posted by noguru

But this does not mean we should ignore all people simply because some have a very poor attitude.

No. Even people with bad attitude deserve help. Who knows what their experiences were and why that person was so damaged.

Originally Posted by noguru

P.S. If I lived near you, I would definitely come over and help out in any way I could.

And I would be so very happy with your visit. Thank you for the thought.

[lifeisgood]

Originally Posted by highlife

I think it is strange that this whole post is almost purposly gender neutral.

Yeah, I know. I do it on purpose.

I have this thing with people knowing my gender, because people have a tendency of placing you into a box.

You probably know what I mean,

"You're a man, all man are the same" OR "Yeah. That's because you're a man."

"It had to be a woman" OR "All women think that way."

It drives me crazy.

But if you would like to know if I am a man or a woman you can send me a PM. I'll answer you. No problem.

However, the story is true. It is my story. It began March 2, 1997 and continues until now.

[highlife]

Originally Posted by lifeisgood

Absolutely yes. I am always grateful no matter what.



I know a couple family members like this lady.



That is nice.



I agree, attitude is everything.



I am always so grateful for what I receive. The Lord has been so good to me.



I tend to agree with this statement.



No. Even people with bad attitude deserve help. Who knows what their experiences were and why that person was so damaged.



And I would be so very happy with your visit. Thank you for the thought.

I would think that if I spent enough time living on the edge I woudl almost just want it to be over with at some point. There is alot of anxiety that comes with living that close to the edge.

I dont know which would be worse a life time of anxiety or just finally starving to death on the streets?

[PureX]

Originally Posted by lifeisgood

So, I ask again, how could/can a stranger help you if they do not know you, or your situation, when your own, who know you and your situation, do not care for you?

They can make sure there is a doctor available for you to see, and a hospital for you to check into. And insurance that will allow you in the doors.

They can make sure you have access to food when you're sick and can't work or buy groceries or cook for yourself.

They can make sure you have somewhere to live when you can't work to pay rent.

They can make sure you have some way of getting around when you have no money and no car or are unable to walk to wherever you need to go.

They can make sure you are treated with compassion and respect even though you may not be able to provide for yourself.

And in fact a lot of people who don't know you did all these things for you, and you didn't even notice. You just took it all for granted.

[lifeisgood]

Originally Posted by PureX

They can make sure there is a doctor available for you to see, and a hospital for you to check into. And insurance that will allow you in the doors.

They can make sure you have access to food when you're sick and can't work or buy groceries or cook for yourself.

They can make sure you have somewhere to live when you can't work to pay rent.

They can make sure you have some way of getting around when you have no money and no car or are unable to walk to wherever you need to go.

They can make sure you are treated with compassion and respect even though you may not be able to provide for yourself.

And in fact a lot of people who don't know you did all these things for you, and you didn't even notice. You just took it all for granted.

It always amazes me that some people 'hear' only what they want to hear. The diatribe was about "my friends."