ReligionDiscuss General Theology, Religions and Denominations, God's Attributes, Predestination and Free Will, Dispensationalism, Eschatology, Philosophy, Origins, Archaeology, Science, World History and other such topics.
I see Christ as a copy of the Father. It was given the fullness of the Father, in other words, it is a God or form of God. God is a spirit so his image is a spirit. There is one true God, the Father, and one Lord, Christ.
Reading the entire thread is well worth you time friend. Its a theory that was given to me this spring. I believe it as truth.
Thank you for the invitation but I will pass on this discussion.
Best Wishes....
Make A Difference Day Award Winner - Outstanding National Project - 2000
How about Hebrews 1 or Colossiians 1' if God used Christ to create the world, he had to be before Jesus. Christ is a spirit, like God. Christ is much more than a man.
Wow...
That is a great observation.
Christ was before Abaham, but clearly, Jesus was long after Abraham.
If Jesus, the physical man, was also the spirit f God, Teh Christ, then this could not be.
What you say here makes the point very clearly.
At birth, even we have to define ourselves, as we discover our toes and hands are actually part of us.
As we create in our mind our own self, the Truth forms in our mind about the real world around us, including us.
The Truth, i.e., the Christ, is the image we are forming in our mind.
This is was Jesus said, "Leave the children alone! Allow the little ones to come to Me, and do not forbid or restrain or hinder them, for of such [as these] is the kingdom of heaven composed," Matthew 19:14.
Hi keypurr
Remember me. We've discussed this before.
1) John 1:1 is true:
In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was WITH GOD, and the WORD WAS GOD.
2) And the manifested WORD of God shared the glorious presence with the Father before the world was..
Hmmm,...
2) Your addition of "shared" replacing "with" is unwarranted when we consider that Christ is Truth.
Truth exists with the ever unfolding Reality which father's it, but does no "sharing" at all.
1) John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, (i.e.; Truth: [John 14:6]), and the Word, ([John 14:9], Truth, itself), was (synonymous) with God, (i.e.; the ever unfolding Reality), and the Word, (Truth: [John 14:6]), was (for men, indistinguishable from the ever unfolding Reality), God, (almighty for all men).
2 "He," (Truth, the symbolic Word to come: [Jud 1:3]) was with God, (the ever unfolding Reality), in the beginning, (that is, the initial unfolding of Reality is what as the Creation).
Jn 1:3 ALL (real) THINGS, (phenomenally, i.e.; mentally), came into existence through him, (this concept of Truth), and apart from him, (this ideal of Truth), not even ONE (real) thing came into (actual) existence.
Slogan/motto:
Deuteronomy 6:6 (KJV) And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
Reputation:
August 11th, 2012, 05:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave3712
John 8:58
Jesus replied, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I AM.
This verse doesn't answer my question, but I will comment on it as best as I can at this time.
I can see it meaning, that the prophets spoke of the coming of Jesus even before Abraham.
I can see it meaning, that Jesus is God and preexisted.
What I don't see it saying, is that Christ is separate from Jesus.
The verse does not mention Christ. So though it does speak of Jesus, it cannot mean that Christ preexisted Jesus.
Deuteronomy 10:12 (KJV) And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
Deuteronomy 10:13 (KJV) To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?
Thank you for the invitation but I will pass on this discussion.
Best Wishes....
If you change your mind my hand of friendship is waiting for you.
Peace
Psalm 1[/color] and Job 28:28
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
2) Your addition of "shared" replacing "with" is unwarranted when we consider that Christ is Truth.
Truth exists with the ever unfolding Reality which father's it, but does no "sharing" at all.
1) John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, (i.e.; Truth: [John 14:6]), and the Word, ([John 14:9], Truth, itself), was (synonymous) with God, (i.e.; the ever unfolding Reality), and the Word, (Truth: [John 14:6]), was (for men, indistinguishable from the ever unfolding Reality), God, (almighty for all men).
2 "He," (Truth, the symbolic Word to come: [Jud 1:3]) was with God, (the ever unfolding Reality), in the beginning, (that is, the initial unfolding of Reality is what as the Creation).
Jn 1:3 ALL (real) THINGS, (phenomenally, i.e.; mentally), came into existence through him, (this concept of Truth), and apart from him, (this ideal of Truth), not even ONE (real) thing came into (actual) existence.
Christ, being an express image of God, is the only one who could ever fully understand just how great our God is.
Psalm 1[/color] and Job 28:28
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
John 8:58
Jesus replied, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I AM.
Psalm 1[/color] and Job 28:28
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
Slogan/motto:
Ps82 KJV You will die like mere men, you will fall like one of the princes, but who is it that is not a man that dies like a man?
Reputation:
August 11th, 2012, 10:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave3712
Hmmm,...
2) Your addition of "shared" replacing "with" is unwarranted when we consider that Christ is Truth.
Truth exists with the ever unfolding Reality which father's it, but does no "sharing" at all.
1) John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, (i.e.; Truth: [John 14:6]), and the Word, ([John 14:9], Truth, itself), was (synonymous) with God, (i.e.; the ever unfolding Reality), and the Word, (Truth: [John 14:6]), was (for men, indistinguishable from the ever unfolding Reality), God, (almighty for all men).
2 "He," (Truth, the symbolic Word to come: [Jud 1:3]) was with God, (the ever unfolding Reality), in the beginning, (that is, the initial unfolding of Reality is what as the Creation).
Jn 1:3 ALL (real) THINGS, (phenomenally, i.e.; mentally), came into existence through him, (this concept of Truth), and apart from him, (this ideal of Truth), not even ONE (real) thing came into (actual) existence.
There is only ONE God. God the Father is God the Son/Savior.
Isaiah 43:11
I (the ONE God), even I am the LORD, beside ME (as the ONE God and as the LORD ) there is no savior.
Our Lord Jesus told us that he and LORD the Father are ONE.
He told us that when anyone had SEEN HIM (the Son of flesh), they had SEEN THE Father.
That is because they are the ONE God, who were both revealed with the same visible bodily form.
God the Father was revealed within creation with a super-natural / body of heaven ... while God the Son was revealed with a natural / body of flesh in his day. But this bodily form was the same image... it was just the essence of which the body was manifested that was different between the Father and the Son.
John the Baptist declared the identity of God the Son to us. We read about what was revealed to us by John the B in John 1:18.
No man at any time hath seen, God, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he (John the B) hath declared him (God the Son)
The time of Jesus was the first time any man had ever seen God manifested as the Son of flesh... until that time God had never revealed himself with flesh!
It is in this way that I say the God the Father ... and God the Son shared the same likeness of a bodily form... After all Jesus explained that they did ... when he said, "When you have SEEN ME ... you HAVE SEEN the Father."
Posted by dave3712
John 8:58
Jesus replied, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I AM.
///
This verse doesn't answer my question, but I will comment on it as best as I can at this time.
I can see it meaning, that the prophets spoke of the coming of Jesus even before Abraham.
I can see it meaning, that Jesus is God and preexisted.
What I don't see it saying, is that Christ is separate from Jesus.
The verse does not mention Christ. So though it does speak of Jesus, it cannot mean that Christ preexisted Jesus.
You seem to bow appreciate the idea that Christ is not actually Jesus, which has been my point.
Jesus, as the son-of-man did not pre-date Abraham, because we know Mary gave birth in 32AD.
But Christ, the Truth, clearly pre-dates that whole of the creation , following in the wake of the Reality that evermore unfolds at the time of the Big Bang Beginning of the heaven and the earth.
Read, your a thinking person for sure. You want me to show you why I think he was created BEFORE creation itself, I assume yu mean before the world was created.
First, I never base my assumptions on one verse. So let me tell you why I believe that he had it before creation.
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
He had power to create BEFORE the world was created
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power,
This makes him a form of God. It would not be unreasonableto think that he had the power before creation if he used it to create.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Again, combined with Hebrews, this shows he is the image of God, He is also the firstborn of every creature. To my way of thinking it appears that Christ was God's first creation and second he is firstborn. Now I am aware most think that firstborn in this verse means first in rank, I agree, but it also means first born.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
He is the creator for his father. God was pleased that he had his fullness.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Now that makes me wonder if the father was concerned that it might not have his fullness, or is that God's way of telling us that he created another God?
Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
This image, which I see as spirit was IN Christ Jesus.
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
More words to tell us that Christ (the image spirit) is a form of God.
That is how I came to the conclusions I have, I think they are correct but I am not a person of high education. God had other plans for me in my younger days.
Anyway Mr Read, that is my story. And I am open to your or any ones elses thoughts for this is all new to me. This is something that I think was given to me for a reason.
Peace and God Bless
Keypurr, you write,
"You want me to show you why I think he was created BEFORE creation itself, I assume yu mean before the world was created."
One of the most popular texts quoted in an attempt to prove that Christ was created before the world is the one you quoted lastly, that is Philippians 2:5-6.
There has been a lot of arguments about this passage epecially about the phrase "the form of God". Lets use Weymouth's translation of the text of Phil.2:5-8 which may allow us a new understanding.
Weymouth translates:
v.5 Let the same disposition be in you which was in Christ (Messiah)Jesus.
v.6 Although from the beginning He had the nature of God He did not reckon His equality with God a treasure to be tightly grasped.
v.7 Nay, He stripped Himself of His glory, and took on Him the nature of a bondservant by becoming a man like other men.
v.8 And being recognized as truly human, He humbled Himself and even stooped to die; yes, to die on a cross.
Now most people reading this passage, associate the word "glory" here with Christ's supposed "pre-incarnate" heavenly existence.
But what in context is the glory he stripped himself of? It is not that Jesus was God Almighty as some insist! The answer is given just two verses earlier which stresses the enormous status Jesus enjoyed as the man Messiah as verse 5 introduces him.
The Son of God did not empty himself of one form in order to take on another form, that of a servant. That is only read into the text!
"Nay, He stripped Himself of His glory that was his as the man Messiah, and took on Him the nature of a bondservant by becoming a man like other men (Phil.2:7). This explanation you can find in the text.
An example of Jesus stripping himself of his glory is found in the gospels when "...charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Messiah" (Mt.16:20).
So Keypurr, let the same disposition be in us which was in Jesus, who though he was the man Messiah, "the pre-destined Lord of the universe, the appointed heir of all things" (Heb.1:2); nevertheless "took on Him the nature of a bondservant by becoming a man like other men" (Phil.2:7).
Posted by dave3712
John 8:58
Jesus replied, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I AM.
///
Your observation, that Christ pre-existed Abraham,... clearly establishes that Jesus was merely the son-of-man.
While, what the gospels are telling us, is that Christ is a euphemism for the ideal of Truth.
It is Truth, as a concept, which, as a spirit, (holy, indeed), is the Christ an savior of mankind.
Truth is the "son-of-the-creative-force" that unfolds the real world we are all both trapped within and nurtured by.
It was the spirit of Truth which came down from heaven and alighted upon jesus, transfiguring him into the Elijah, returned.
It was Elijah in 800BC who suddenly appeared at an age of @30, and did all the things Christ would do again in 32AD.
Both mere men were endowed with the spirit of truth and transfigured.
Both men were pre-dated by Truth that has always existed from the beginning.
1) John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, (i.e.; Truth: [John 14:6]), and the Word, ([John 14:9], Truth, itself), was (synonymous) with God, (i.e.; the ever unfolding Reality), and the Word, (Truth: [John 14:6]), was (for men,... indistinguishable from the ever unfolding Reality, i.e...), God, (almighty Reality for all men).
2 "He," (Truth, the symbolic Word to come: [Jud 1:3]) was with God, (i.e.; the ever unfolding Reality), in the beginning, (that is, in the initial unfolding of Reality in what was the Creation).
Jn 1:3 ALL (real) THINGS, (phenomenally, i.e.; mentally), came into existence (for men) through him, (i.e.; this concept of Truth), and apart from him, (this ideal of Truth), not even ONE (real) thing came into (actual) existence (as far as men are concerned).
/////
Christ, being an express image of God, is the only one who could ever fully understand just how great our God is.
Exactly.
Truth corresponds, one-to-one, with what is real. As the ever unfolding Reality engulfs us, Truth is sired in its wake.
But mortal man must discern Truth and establish it as a concept in his mind.
When he does, his thoughts embody the holy kind of spirit that can save men, and work towards the everlasting life of our species.
But Truth, itself, is the expression of what is and has been Real, differentiating the fantasy worlds from the Reality all sane men accept and recognize.
.... "the pre-destined Lord of the universe, the appointed heir of all things" (Heb.1:2); nevertheless "took on Him the nature of a bondservant by becoming a man like other men" (Phil.2:7).
.... the pre-destined Lord of the universe, (Truth), the appointed heir (in the wake) of all things (that have actually been created)... "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, (i.e.; the Truth sired in the wake of the unfolding Reality before us), whom he (almighty Reality, itself), hath appointed heir, ( or the express image) of all things,... by whom, (i.e.; this concept of what is true), also he made (the congruent image of) the worlds, (one external to man and one envisioned within, mentally) Heb.1:2;
...nevertheless "took on Him, (while in the State of the Christ), the nature of a bondservant by becoming (again, as before he was baptized), a man like other men".... who, [Christ], though he was in the form [Gk morphE] of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, but emptied [Gk keno, from which English "kenosis" is derived] himself, taking the form of a slave (i.e.; as Jesus, and no longer, The Christ), being born in human likeness [Gk homoima]. And being found, (again, as before his baptism: [Matt 3;16,17][), in human form [Gk schema], (returned to the son-of-man, again) :Phil.2:7.
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