toldailytopic: Should Christians always forgive those who've done them wrong?
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These were the soldiers performing and overseeing the execution. If Jesus had been a mere man, what would they have been guilty of?
Not forgiving one who does not repent doesn't necessarily mean sitting around, burning in your heart with rage and hatred. It simply means not forgiving. It doesn't mean allowing that person any power over you either. It simply means not forgiving! Whatever bitterness you harbor or whatever power you allow that person over yourself has nothing to do with that question. Those things remain entirely in your power whether you forgive or not. Whether they repent or not. These are flowery, poetical, nonsensical justifications for something you know in your heart doesn't make any danged sense at all. Forgiving someone who does not repent.
Again, God does not forgive without repentance. You are not wiser than He for doing things differently. Rather, you're missing something important that He recognizes and you refuse to.
And again, you undermine the gospel completely with this teaching. You teach others that they can expect forgiveness from God without repentance. After all, they have an example from a lesser mortal doing that in God's name! Of course a perfect God will forgive perfectly and consistently. What then do they have to fear from their own sins? Nothing at all, of course. Hence hell and damnation coming as a big surprise to some people you've misled. And they'll curse you for it when it comes.
Forgive as God forgives!
Luke 17:3-4
3 Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.”
As usual Mary Contrary, you are far from the truth. But I forgive you.
Forgiveness is not easy at all. But that does not mean it was not what Jesus taught.
Jesus says the same thing in Matthew 18:15 as he did in the Luke verse you quoted.
Then he goes on in Matthew 18:21-22 to say:
Then Peter came to him and asked, “Lord, how often should I forgive someone who sins against me? Seven times?”
“No!” Jesus replied, “seventy times seven!”
You can rebuke or correct someone for their mistakes, but you still must forgive.
Matthew 18:34-35
34 And in anger his lord handed him over to be tortured until he would pay his entire debt. 35 So my heavenly Father will also do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother or sister from your heart.
The dictionary definition of forgive is to cease to feel resentment against an offender
It is what we feel, our emotion, that we need to deal with and not let control us.
Repent means to turn to God. We all have that potential within us to turn to God. We need to do so for God to infuse us with the "holy spirit" so we can live according to God. If we turn to God, we forgive, because that is what God does.
Matthew 6:14-15
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
(quote)
Lesson 10: Forgive As Christ Has Forgiven You
by Eric Elder
One of the things I’ve noticed about gracious people is that they often have an incredible capacity to overlook the faults of others and focus on their strengths instead. I suppose it’s the same way that God looks at us, even if we don’t always perceive it that way.
While it might seem that gracious people could be simply unaware of just how sinful others can be, usually just the opposite is true. Gracious people, like God, often seem to understand sin and just how destructive sin can be. But just like God, they also understand something else. They understand just how powerful forgiveness can be.
As a result, when faced with a sin in someone else’s life, those who are filled with grace make a conscious decision to choose forgiveness over anger, blessing over cursing, and compassion over destruction.
The Apostle Paul understood these choices as well. In his letter to the Ephesians, he urged them to give up their thoughts of anger, rage and malice, and to extend forgiveness, grace and kindness instead. He wrote:
“ ‘In your anger do not sin’: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold... Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.” (Ephesians 4:26-27, 29-32).
Forgiveness is at the heart of grace. It’s what makes Christ Himself so gracious. The Bible says that Christ didn’t wait for us to turn from our sins before He was willing to die for us, but rather,
“While we were still sinners, Christ died for us” Romans 5:8
That’s grace. That’s forgiveness. That’s what God has done for us in Christ. And that’s what God wants us to do for others.
Being gracious isn’t about ignoring, or excusing, other people’s sin. Being gracious is about forgiving other people’s sin--because God, in Christ, has forgiven you of yours.
In Matthew 18, Jesus tells the parable of the unmerciful servant. In the story, Jesus tells about a king who forgives one of his servants of a huge debt. But when that servant goes home and demands repayment of a debt that one of his fellow men owed to him, the king had the unmerciful servant thrown into prison, saying that he wouldn’t get out until he paid back all he owed. Jesus’ ends the story with these words:
“This is how My heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart” (Matthew 18:35).
If someone has wronged you, God understands. He knows the hurt and pain that sin can cause. But He also knows how heavy it can be to carry around the burden of anger, as well as the burden of what’s been done to you. You don’t have to carry both. Let go of the anger, and let God heal the hurt.
When Jesus taught His disciples how to pray, he included these words: “Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors” (Matthew 6:12).
Slogan/motto:
"Tolerance and Apathy are the last virtues of a dying society."
~UNKNOWN
Reputation:
August 14th, 2012, 02:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sky.
Yes. If someone harms me I should forgive them and give it to God but that doesn't mean I have to have a relationship with the one who hurt or wronged me.
Slogan/motto:
Screaming at the top of my lungs, pretending the echoes belong to someone.
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August 14th, 2012, 03:06 PM
I'm not much one for repentance in the Christian sense, but taking the ordinary meaning of the word, I don't disagree that those who repent deserve forgiveness.
It just makes sense logically. I don't mean repent as sinners and bow to God, I simply mean feel regret and sorrow for what they have done. A person who doesn't care that they have hurt others or acted wrongly does not deserve forgiveness, where one who is truly sorry does.
Slogan/motto:
Ecclesiastes 10:10 If the ax is dull, And one does not sharpen the edge, Then he must use more strength; But wisdom brings success.
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August 14th, 2012, 04:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eameece
Forgiveness is not easy at all. But that does not mean it was not what Jesus taught.
Why imply that I claim Jesus did not teach forgiveness? I was pretty clear, I thought, in pointing out there is a specific way we're supposed to forgive. Are you being dishonest here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by eameece
Jesus says the same thing in Matthew 18:15 as he did in the Luke verse you quoted.
Then he goes on in Matthew 18:21-22 to say:
Then Peter came to him and asked, “Lord, how often should I forgive someone who sins against me? Seven times?”
“No!” Jesus replied, “seventy times seven!”
So you argue against Luke by pointing to Matthew, because Matthew omits "repent". That's your argument.
What, was Luke incorrect? Lying? Do these two scriptures contradict one another, do you think?
Quote:
Originally Posted by eameece
You can rebuke or correct someone for their mistakes, but you still must forgive.
Agreed. And if they repent, then you actually should. Don't play games.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eameece
Matthew 18:34-35
34 And in anger his lord handed him over to be tortured until he would pay his entire debt. 35 So my heavenly Father will also do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother or sister from your heart.
Why didn't the lord in the story forgive the man, as you say he should? This does not support your argument.
If we're supposed to forgive as God forgives and "the lord" in the story is supposed to symbolize God, then apparently there are times when we should not forgive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eameece
The dictionary definition of forgive is to cease to feel resentment against an offender
It is what we feel, our emotion, that we need to deal with and not let control us.
That's not the only use of the word "forgive" and you know it. Don't be dishonest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eameece
Repent means to turn to God. We all have that potential within us to turn to God. We need to do so for God to infuse us with the "holy spirit" so we can live according to God. If we turn to God, we forgive, because that is what God does.
God forgives those who repent. He doesn't forgive everyone. Why do you insist we should?
Quote:
Originally Posted by eameece
Matthew 6:14-15
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
Again, this doesn't confront the simple concept that we should forgive as God forgives. As we're plainly commanded to do.
I stopped responding to your post here. It's more of the same, ignoring the condition of repentance and arguing for unconditional forgiveness. God does not do that and nor should we.
Now, why doesn't God forgive unconditionally? Forgiving even those that do not repent? That should be the next question here, so we can understand why we should not.
First forgiveness isn't easy it damn hard and not a wimpy option.
Its also the default position for Christians, I know some scriptures do say repent but there are plenty of others that don't.
Forgiveness before repentance often leads to repentance and restoration.
There are times when forgiveness needs to be at a distance and outside ongoing relationship but they are rare and not the Christian norm. these usually relate to an abuse of power.
The decision to forgive in a vulnerable way should never be taken by the aggressor and wrongdoer, but laid down by the forgiver from a position of choice and strength. To do otherwise serves neither party.
-circumventing the justice of God
-assuming time will heal all wounds
-letting the offender off the hook
-reconciliation
-excusing unjust behaviors
-attempting to explain the hurt away
-based on notions of fairness
-some idea of weak martyrdom
-quashing your anger
-a natural act
-denying your hurt
-becoming a doormat
-conditional
-forgetting
-a feeling
-presuming of repentance by the offender
-enablement
Yes, God commands us to forgive. Forgiveness is an act of the will, it is not some emotion.
Slogan/motto:
Luke 9:23 Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me."
"If a sheerly linguistic version of the gospel could be concocted, it would merely so be no longer the gospel. In the Lutheran Reformation’s understanding, which we believe in this matter to be correct, the sacraments make the inalienable externality of the gospel message and therefore are necessary to the authenticity of that message." (Christian Dogmatics [1984], II:302-303 as cited in Pontifications)
Slogan/motto:
2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Reputation:
August 15th, 2012, 04:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight
toldailytopic: Should Christians always forgive those who've done them wrong?
Yes
2 Timothy 2:15 KJV Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Slogan/motto:
2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Reputation:
August 15th, 2012, 04:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inzl Kett
Wimpy forgive all Christianity actually isn't biblical. It is cowardly.
Ephesians 4:32 KJV And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
2 Timothy 2:15 KJV Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Slogan/motto:
2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Reputation:
August 15th, 2012, 04:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Raven
Matthew 6:14-15
We are in the dispensation of the grace of God. Even if I do not forgive someone I am already forgiven ALL trespasses. Colossians 2:13 KJV
2 Timothy 2:15 KJV Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Slogan/motto:
2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Reputation:
August 15th, 2012, 04:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lighthouse
Only if they repent. We forgive them the same as God forgave us.
Funny, I don't see "only if they repent" in this passage. Ephesians 4:32 KJV And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
You were forgiven long before you repented.
2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
When Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) having been made sin for you (2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV), He forgave you all of your sins. Or are you willing to say that your sins were not forgiven by the faith and finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ in your stead?
2 Timothy 2:15 KJV Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Slogan/motto:
2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Reputation:
August 15th, 2012, 05:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryContrary
Luke 17:3-4
3 Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.”
Forgive as God forgives. Whenever your brother sins against you and repents, forgive them.
Colossians 3:13
13 bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do.
How does Christ forgive?
Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Mark 1:15
15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”
I find it interesting that you say that we should forgive as Christ forgave as in Colossians 3:13 KJV (which is right) and then go further and say how does Christ forgive (quoting another gospel than that which Paul preached).
Christ forgave you. There is no forgiving left to give. He gave Himself a ransom for all to be testified in due time (1 Timothy 2:6 KJV). He forgave you long before you were even around to "repent". Romans 5:6 KJV, Romans 5:8 KJV, Romans 5:10 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, 2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV, 2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV, Colossians 2:13 KJV
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We should not attempt to conform God to what we think is right. Rather, confirm ourselves to God.
Yes, and as an ambassador for Christ you ought to know a thing or two about forgiveness, how God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself not imputing their trespasses unto them and how God is operating in the dispensation of the grace of God. just sayin'
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Haven't you established then that unbelievers do not need to repent to be saved?
Repent of what?
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How many unbelievers will stand before God and point to you as a witness that they did not need to submit to God?
Submit to God in what regard?
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Again, God does not forgive without repentance.
I trusted the Lord after hearing and believing the word of truth, the gospel of my salvation and am saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) and sealed unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV, Ephesians 4:30 KJV). Was there some religious hoop that I failed to jump through?
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And again, you undermine the gospel completely with this teaching.
What gospel would that be? I saw you quote Acts 2:38, but I must have missed where you posted the gospel of Christ, the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth...Romans 1:16 KJV.
Quote:
Forgive as God forgives!
Luke 17:3-4
3 Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.”
Forgive as God forgave!
Ephesians 4:32 KJV And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
2 Timothy 2:15 KJV Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Last edited by heir; August 15th, 2012 at 05:48 AM.
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