[Livelystone]

Originally Posted by calvaryoakville

Impressive thread! This is really a must read to every christians. Great I joined this forum.

Bible teaching church in Oakville

Sorry I overlooked this post but I just checked out the link and for me it did not work.

Maybe you might want to look at it yourself and see what is up with it.

Blessings to you

Doug

[Zeke]

Livelystone;3183895]The parable of Job teaches us that it is God that withholds the hand of Satan. David said the same thing when he said although he walked in the Valley of death, he feared no evil because God walked with him.

The parrable isn't to be takin literaly, satan, serpent, etc.. are just symbolic for the lower mind (left brain) outter camp of jacobs sons desires of the flesh around the holy of holies, which represents the temple where God dwells in each person the holy land Israel. The spirit lights every man that comes into the world and all have that devine spark that will produce flame once inlightenment starts. Adam, Eve, Cain, Able, Saul, David, all teach the same thing, the flesh starts out good but fails every time, only when the spirit leads the way will the Saul in us(seed of the male flesh desires) unite with David in us (seed of the woman spiritual desires)and become one, neither found perfection seperated each failed to produce the devine man.

I agree! Furthermore, it is the kingdom of God within us that is a source of light that dispels the darkness of evil before us as we walk doing our daily chores. Otherwise, we would be overcome by Satan who is the Prince and power of this world.

Evil is a falling short of the mark by the flesh (lower mind), an imbalance with spirit the higher mind (garden of eden where the flesh can't enter without the child of the spirit) thats all, Astrology teaches the reason for the imbalance, the number 12 is complete in earths seasonal period, summer, spring, fall, winter. (Jesus represents the sun in the greek 888 in numerology, and the twelve dsiciples the Zodiac, Jesus was twelve when he was found in his fathers temple teaching etc...)we are born three months short of being complete in Gods creation, which throws much needed light on the real science of the mind and body and why we do, and think the way we do because we are born short of completion which can have bad effects when the real truth is hidden by religions literal applications to inner body science.

Now you have fallen deeply into error. It is those who have returned to sin that are lost and cannot be turned back to repentance.

The error is thinking the wizard ( the lieralist god of the bible coming in literal clouds instead of manifesting within) behind the curtain is something its not, literalism biggest mistake and keeps the religious yoke around necks (minds) literaly.

As Jesus said if you do not believe me, then believe the works that proves the father is in me. This goes hand-in-hand with the statement that we are known by the fruit that we produce. Man cannot produce divine works but God does. This is given evidence in the following verse that proves it was miracles done by God through Jesus that showed he was approved of God.

The real fruit God cares about is devine love, If we stay in adam (falling short) without becoming one with Eve again the two sides of the brain united, where there is neither male nor female, jew or gentile, only the new man the completed temple of God, the bible teaches these ancient truths from the east (right brain is where inlightenment takes place, the Sun rises in the east or right side, the door into the holy of holies located on the right, the tribe of light Judah camped on the east or right side, the wise men came from the east etc....) in allegory and symbology, when takin literaly death, hate, war, self righteousness, rules the minds of men, the last days are giving way to the new day of the Son of Man, Luke 22:10 the sign of the house of Aquaruis.

Acts 2:22
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Paul agrees and in Galatians says that it is the hearing of faith from us that brings forth miracles.

Galatians 3:5
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Therefore, James says that without works, the faith that works miracles and is the presence of truth and the Holy Spirit in us, cannot be proven! Therefore James said that faith without works is dead.

I agree with James.



It is the letter of the law that kills, however, it is the spirit of the law that gives life and are our guidelines for navigating the wilderness, and to prepare us to cross into the promised land at the time of Tabernacles when Israel should have gone into the promised land had they possessed the necessary faith. (That Paul says they did not have and had fallen to the spirit of unbelief in the truth.)

Of course the entire thing of Israel in the Old Testament is nothing more than a prophecy of us going from bondage to liberty through Jesus Christ in us, who to be fully formed is our hope of glory, a.k.a. living in the promised land.

Unfortunately, because Israel did not have the faith necessary to enter in at the time of Tabernacles they could not enter into the promised land other than through death that took them to Passover. For us we are guaranteed that he is our “Passover,” however, should we learn the truth that will allow the fullness of Christ to be formed in us, we can enter in at Tabernacles.

Blessings (overlooking your insults)

Doug

And where does that faith come from, its a gift that rightly belongs to us all and will manifest in all when Jesus gives the finished kingdom the devine Adam up to the Father. All died in adam all made alive in Adam.

Blessings (offense need not apply if you don't have any still within)

[Totton Linnet]

Originally Posted by Livelystone

ND

When Jesus said those who did not believe on him were condemned already, it was not forever burning in hell that there were condemned to (as commonly taught) because nobody is condemned to anything in the afterlife before they die.

What they were condemned to is continuing to living a life underneath the dominion of the Prince and power of the air who has ruled over the spirits and souls of all of naturally born mankind ever since the fall in the garden.

Since the fall the only escape from Satan's dominion has been to cleave unto God to whether it be by commandment or later through His Son.

Following God includes escaping sin and its dominion over mankind. For those who have been baptized in the Holy Spirit and have continued to live in sin, they put Christ to an open shame.

Not only have they refused so great a salvation, they will be held more accountable for sin than those who never had the opportunity to overcome sin such as those who've never heard of Jesus.

God is not mocked, and those who call upon and go by the name of Jesus Christ in their worship, yet bring shame on his name will be held accountable.

It is the fault of these disobedient Christians that many people have turned their back on God because of all of the hypocrisy seen in the church. I've had the misfortune of meeting far too many Christians who are no better than some of the worst criminals I have ever met including those associated with my former lifestyle.

It is because of sin in the church that God no longer makes his presence known within the organized Christian religion as a whole. It has gotten so bad that for the most part Christians are now fulfilling the prophecy in the Bible of calling good evil and what is evil to be called good when it comes to understanding the truth.

It is because of the lack of truth taught concerning the doctrine of the resurrection and eternal judgment that has allowed exceedingly false doctrines such as the rapture to gain momentum in the church. At the time of the great awakening, you can see within some of the speeches made from the pulpit, they still believed in the truth of the resurrection. Therefore, unlike now God was not forced to turn his back on the church, and his presence was still known to appear in most of what was considered to be the church.

As the Scriptures say will be the house of God is what is judged first but what comes out of that judgment will be a church worshiping in truth witnessing many signs and wonders that will not be any different from the 1st century church

Doug

*
I say you are mixing up salvation with discipleship, this is what you must not do, or if you like salvation with sanctification. Much of what you say is a true assessment of the problem [imv] but a wrong conclusion.

Earlier you showed that at a certain time many turned back from the Lord's ministry and walked no more with Him, you conclude from this that they were damned, there is not a scrap in what the Lord said to warrant this.

There never has been a time from this instance onwards where the whole church has been made up of disciples only, nor was it so in OT times.

It is on my heart to say to you, and a good many others like you, FORGIVE...forgive the weakness of your brothers and sisters, God has not chosen the strong and powerful, the wise and able of this world, He has chosen the weak and foolish and UNable. God knows all about how His people fall away so easily from the hard trials that pertain to faithfulness.

This is the true meaning of that word "many are called but few are chosen" it refers not to damnation, christians are much, much too ready to see damnation everywhere in scripture. But only a few go on to become successful ministers. It was ALWAYS that way.

That judgement you talk about is true but it involves discipline in this life, and I am so glad that it is GOD who is the one and the only one who judges and who disciplines. Even Hebrews 6 does not go so far as to damn in my view it goes quite far enough and it stands out from all the other scriptures in it's harsh assessment.

What judgement would YOU cast upon a man who turned up in church in carnal embrace of his own mother? while his father was alive? Yet Paul never once breathed any word about such an one [in the Corinth assembly] being damned, you can be SURE if it were a possibility he would have. No that man's punishment was severe but his salvation was never in question.

[Totton Linnet]

Originally Posted by DAN P

Hi , and the burden , here , is " WHAT FALLING AWAY " means to a believer in the dispensation of Grace ?

What did they fall away from ??

dan p

*
If there is any meaning in words grace means grace and can have no other conditions whatever attached to it other than faith. The moment you add the incy winciest condition to it then it becomes earnings.

So it is IMpossible to fall away from grace, we can fall away from discipleship and that brings Hebrews 6 into full focus.

The falling away Hebrews talks about is our first confidence, our first faith which was in the cross and in Christ only in the first place, that has ever been the only salvation which God has honoured.

But now those who believe in conditional salvation are saying that discipleship was our first faith.

[NewDay]

Originally Posted by Totton Linnet

*
I say you are mixing up salvation with discipleship, this is what you must not do, or if you like salvation with sanctification. Much of what you say is a true assessment of the problem [imv] but a wrong conclusion.

Earlier you showed that at a certain time many turned back from the Lord's ministry and walked no more with Him, you conclude from this that they were damned, there is not a scrap in what the Lord said to warrant this.

There never has been a time from this instance onwards where the whole church has been made up of disciples only, nor was it so in OT times.

It is on my heart to say to you, and a good many others like you, FORGIVE...forgive the weakness of your brothers and sisters, God has not chosen the strong and powerful, the wise and able of this world, He has chosen the weak and foolish and UNable. God knows all about how His people fall away so easily from the hard trials that pertain to faithfulness.

This is the true meaning of that word "many are called but few are chosen" it refers not to damnation, christians are much, much too ready to see damnation everywhere in scripture. But only a few go on to become successful ministers. It was ALWAYS that way.

That judgement you talk about is true but it involves discipline in this life, and I am so glad that it is GOD who is the one and the only one who judges and who disciplines. Even Hebrews 6 does not go so far as to damn in my view it goes quite far enough and it stands out from all the other scriptures in it's harsh assessment.

What judgement would YOU cast upon a man who turned up in church in carnal embrace of his own mother? while his father was alive? Yet Paul never once breathed any word about such an one [in the Corinth assembly] being damned, you can be SURE if it were a possibility he would have. No that man's punishment was severe but his salvation was never in question.

Amen, well said, Tots.

I wish everyone on this board could GET this....(I know, I know, it took me awhile, too.)......

[NewDay]

Originally Posted by Totton Linnet

*
If there is any meaning in words grace means grace and can have no other conditions whatever attached to it other than faith. The moment you add the incy winciest condition to it then it becomes earnings.

So it is IMpossible to fall away from grace, we can fall away from discipleship and that brings Hebrews 6 into full focus.

The falling away Hebrews talks about is our first confidence, our first faith which was in the cross and in Christ only in the first place, that has ever been the only salvation which God has honoured.

But now those who believe in conditional salvation are saying that discipleship was our first faith.

In my opinion, some of them are defining faith and grace in a true, bibilcal perspective, and those who are not understanding biblical grace and faith, are misrepresenting them at times.

I agree fully with you that we cannot lose salvation, but the one's who think that grace and faith mean we can live any old way OUR flesh would desire are wrong.

There is a difference.

[oldhermit]

Originally Posted by DAN P

Hi , and the burden , here , is " WHAT FALLING AWAY " means to a believer in the dispensation of Grace ?

What did they fall away from ??

dan p

I notice they have still not answered your question. They have only talked around it.

[DAN P]

Originally Posted by oldhermit

I notice they have still not answered your question. They have only talked around it.

Hi , and I was thinking of Gal 5:4 , says why we can " fall from grace " !!!

Falling from Grace has to do with SANTIFICATION , and nothing to do with JUSTIFICATION .

Be coming of " no effect " you become Inactive , when you place your self under the LAW !!

DAN P

[Totton Linnet]

Originally Posted by DAN P

Hi , and the burden , here , is " WHAT FALLING AWAY " means to a believer in the dispensation of Grace ?

What did they fall away from ??

dan p

It means falling away from grace....i.e going back to keeping the commandments etc.

However right and desirable a thing it is that we walk in the Spirit [what commandment will we break if we are walking in the Spirit?] yet this must never be put as a condition for our salvation. If we do so we are falling away.

[NewDay]

Originally Posted by DAN P

Hi , and I was thinking of Gal 5:4 , says why we can " fall from grace " !!!

Falling from Grace has to do with SANTIFICATION , and nothing to do with JUSTIFICATION .

Be coming of " no effect " you become Inactive , when you place your self under the LAW !!

DAN P

I agree with you on this, Dan.

That is why instead of 'falling from grace', which if you think about it, it is a ...moving away from it, and what it is in the biblical definition. What EVER born again believer is told to do is to GROW in grace and in knowledge, AFTER we are saved; which is likewise proof that we are not fully understanding it, upon initial salvation, as some claim, too.

When Jesus wants us to grow in grace....and in knowledge, it is HIS will to bring us to a full ASSURANCE. You do NOT have it upon initial salvation.

He is both the Author and Finisher of our faith; once you are fully assurred away from the law and the old covenant, you are then complete in Him, in the area of knowing fully what grace is.

Some think grace is a license to continue living a sinful lifestyle, and Paul dealt with that error, too, and they are likewise ignorant of what bibilcal grace is.

[Livelystone]

Originally Posted by NewDay

I agree with you on this, Dan.

That is why instead of 'falling from grace', which if you think about it, it is a ...moving away from it, and what it is in the biblical definition. What EVER born again believer is told to do is to GROW in grace and in knowledge, AFTER we are saved; which is likewise proof that we are not fully understanding it, upon initial salvation, as some claim, too.

When Jesus wants us to grow in grace....and in knowledge, it is HIS will to bring us to a full ASSURANCE. You do NOT have it upon initial salvation.

He is both the Author and Finisher of our faith; once you are fully assurred away from the law and the old covenant, you are then complete in Him, in the area of knowing fully what grace is.

Some think grace is a license to continue living a sinful lifestyle, and Paul dealt with that error, too, and they are likewise ignorant of what bibilcal grace is.

You just do not get it!

Until you've overcome sin you have not been saved from anything! Churches that teach the false doctrine a permanent afterlife living in a physical fire for never saying the sinner's prayer even though the person may have never heard the gospel message will spend more time being corrected in the afterlife than those who never heard the name of Jesus.

When Jesus said those who did not believe on his name were condemned already, these people you were condemned to living a life under the dominion the god of this world who has ruled over mankind ever since the fall. On the other hand through grace and the gift of the Holy Spirit, Christians have been given an opportunity to rise above earthly dominion and be seated in heavenly places, but that will only happen IF and WHEN Christ has become the Lord of their hearts. Those who teach that the ones who are condemned already are condemned to permanent exile in flaming napalm, are at the least submitting to a watered-down form of the false doctrine of Calvinism predestination.The Bible makes it quite clear that until after one dies there is no judgment passed, and even then it is for better or for worse as in both winners and losers. Accepting Christ is not a guarantee of not being judged for sin but is a guarantee if you learn the truth you will overcome sin.

The Bible makes it very clear that people are held accountable on the based on the knowledge they have. Those who are familiar with the Bible, and the commandment of Jesus to sin no more yet do so willingly, are going to be held far more accountable than someone who was never heard the gospel message........... and that you can take to the bank!

Your evangelical message that those who say a prayer despite living a life in sin are going to be better off than someone who is not said the same prayer yet live a life to the best of their knowledge of right and wrong and the golden rule, is enough to gag a maggot.

Then you wonder why the whole world considers the church nothing more than a bunch of hypocrites patting each other on the back and congratulating themselves for winning the eternal lottery while everybody else burns to death without ever dying.

How repugnant

Doug

[NewDay]

Originally Posted by Livelystone

You just do not get it!

Until you've overcome sin you have not been saved from anything! Churches that teach the false doctrine a permanent afterlife living in a physical fire for never saying the sinner's prayer even though the person may have never heard the gospel message will spend more time being corrected in the afterlife than those who never heard the name of Jesus.

When Jesus said those who did not believe on his name were condemned already, these people you were condemned to living a life under the dominion the god of this world who has ruled over mankind ever since the fall. On the other hand through grace and the gift of the Holy Spirit, Christians have been given an opportunity to rise above earthly dominion and be seated in heavenly places, but that will only happen IF and WHEN Christ has become the Lord of their hearts. Those who teach that the ones who are condemned already are condemned to permanent exile in flaming napalm, are at the least submitting to a watered-down form of the false doctrine of Calvinism predestination.The Bible makes it quite clear that until after one dies there is no judgment passed, and even then it is for better or for worse as in both winners and losers. Accepting Christ is not a guarantee of not being judged for sin but is a guarantee if you learn the truth you will overcome sin.

The Bible makes it very clear that people are held accountable on the based on the knowledge they have. Those who are familiar with the Bible, and the commandment of Jesus to sin no more yet do so willingly, are going to be held far more accountable than someone who was never heard the gospel message........... and that you can take to the bank!

Your evangelical message that those who say a prayer despite living a life in sin are going to be better off than someone who is not said the same prayer yet live a life to the best of their knowledge of right and wrong and the golden rule, is enough to gag a maggot.

Then you wonder why the whole world considers the church nothing more than a bunch of hypocrites patting each other on the back and congratulating themselves for winning the eternal lottery while everybody else burns to death without ever dying.

How repugnant

Doug

Well, Doug,.......

I find it equally repugnant that you think that salvation can only occur, AFTER sin has been overcome in a person.

It is the very Holy Spirit that we overcome it by.

That means, you must FIRST be saved for it to occur.

Geesh.

We are saved, without the AID of human hands; it is a FREE gift, I am sorry you find it repugnant.

It is not your right to judge what God gives to those who HE freely saves, yet never move on into maturity.

Let God be their judge.

Then, you might feel less SICK.

[Livelystone]

Originally Posted by NewDay

Well, Doug,.......

I find it equally repugnant that you think that salvation can only occur, AFTER sin has been overcome in a person.

It is the very Holy Spirit that we overcome it by.

That means, you must FIRST be saved for it to occur.
.

We are saved, without the AID of human hands; it is a FREE gift, I am sorry you find it repugnant.

It is not your right to judge what God gives to those who HE freely saves, yet never move on into maturity.

Let God be their judge.

Then, you might feel less SICK.

Salvation is overcoming sin in mankind!!!!!!!!!!

Sin is what man was born into but through Jesus Christ we have been given the ability to overcome it.

Just what do you think you have been saved from if you have not yet learned how to overcome sin? The apostle John makes it very clear in his epistles that those who have gone on from the baptism of the Holy Spirit have overcome sin.

Take a look at the teaching of the unclean spirit in Matthew 12 and Luke 11

The only thing that can cause an unclean spirit to depart is the arrival of a clean spirit a.k.a. the Holy Spirit. This follows the rule that darkness is never changing to light but is displaced by the presence of light.

However when the Holy Spirit does not continue to rule the heart and unclean spirit returns as seen in the end of this teaching, what does Jesus say about the person??????????????

Jesus says very clearly that the person is worse off than they ever were before the unclean spirit was displaced from their heart. Amen? I think so.........

What is so hard for you to see within that teaching from Jesus? Please answer this.......... maybe it will cause a light bulb to come on for you.

Doug

[Totton Linnet]

Originally Posted by Livelystone

You just do not get it!

Until you've overcome sin you have not been saved from anything! Churches that teach the false doctrine a permanent afterlife living in a physical fire for never saying the sinner's prayer even though the person may have never heard the gospel message will spend more time being corrected in the afterlife than those who never heard the name of Jesus.

When Jesus said those who did not believe on his name were condemned already, these people you were condemned to living a life under the dominion the god of this world who has ruled over mankind ever since the fall. On the other hand through grace and the gift of the Holy Spirit, Christians have been given an opportunity to rise above earthly dominion and be seated in heavenly places, but that will only happen IF and WHEN Christ has become the Lord of their hearts. Those who teach that the ones who are condemned already are condemned to permanent exile in flaming napalm, are at the least submitting to a watered-down form of the false doctrine of Calvinism predestination.The Bible makes it quite clear that until after one dies there is no judgment passed, and even then it is for better or for worse as in both winners and losers. Accepting Christ is not a guarantee of not being judged for sin but is a guarantee if you learn the truth you will overcome sin.

The Bible makes it very clear that people are held accountable on the based on the knowledge they have. Those who are familiar with the Bible, and the commandment of Jesus to sin no more yet do so willingly, are going to be held far more accountable than someone who was never heard the gospel message........... and that you can take to the bank!

Your evangelical message that those who say a prayer despite living a life in sin are going to be better off than someone who is not said the same prayer yet live a life to the best of their knowledge of right and wrong and the golden rule, is enough to gag a maggot.

Then you wonder why the whole world considers the church nothing more than a bunch of hypocrites patting each other on the back and congratulating themselves for winning the eternal lottery while everybody else burns to death without ever dying.

How repugnant

Doug

*
I'm gunna shock you for I know you, oh yes...we have never met or spoken but I know you.

People wonder why I bang on so much about the doctrines of freewill and YOU are the reason. All freewill doctrine comes with a little puff of pride. God has brought you to this thread so that I might offer counsel to you.

You are hurting my brother and you are heading for a BIG hurt. God is going to pull you off of that pedestal unless, unless you can be brought to humble yourself.

I KNOW God has blest you, I KNOW He has used you, but however much you say "it's all by grace" freewill teaching with all it's pride puffery implants into your mind that it is because YOU are more faithful than your brothers and sisters. Your prayers, your bible study, your devotion, your single-minded following after God.

Ah me! I wish I could somehow prevent you from hurting yourself so badly, it is like seeing a child playing on a high wall or in the road .

Get it in to your soul dear brother that it truly IS all by God's grace alone, I had no idea what saved would be when I first kneeled to pray but the heavens opened and such a weight of glory fell it blew me out of my socks. I made such a racket shouting the glory that my Jewish neighbour woman came rushing to my door "Susanne, Susanne are you alright? shall I call the police?" She was the first person I witnessed to.

I did nothing to deserve that, I still am nothing deserving of all His wondrous blessing to me "one lavished upon in the Belovéd" is more than just a nice catchphrase. All I can do is thank Him and praise Him and WORSHIP Him for His glorious grace.

God has given His gifts for the building up, the strengthening, the encouragement, the comforting, yes the admonishment, of His people.
He wants to bless them, lift them up when they are down, help them to stand in the day of temptation, heal them, cheer them up, knit them together in love.

This is God's will.

Read your posts my brother do they reflect God's will? I write this in love in love. And no I am not so perfect myself.

[NewDay]

Originally Posted by Livelystone

Salvation is overcoming sin in mankind!!!!!!!!!!

Sin is what man was born into but through Jesus Christ we have been given the ability to overcome it.

Just what do you think you have been saved from if you have not yet learned how to overcome sin? The apostle John makes it very clear in his epistles that those who have gone on from the baptism of the Holy Spirit have overcome sin.

Take a look at the teaching of the unclean spirit in Matthew 12 and Luke 11

The only thing that can cause an unclean spirit to depart is the arrival of a clean spirit a.k.a. the Holy Spirit. This follows the rule that darkness is never changing to light but is displaced by the presence of light.

However when the Holy Spirit does not continue to rule the heart and unclean spirit returns as seen in the end of this teaching, what does Jesus say about the person??????????????

Jesus says very clearly that the person is worse off than they ever were before the unclean spirit was displaced from their heart. Amen? I think so.........

What is so hard for you to see within that teaching from Jesus? Please answer this.......... maybe it will cause a light bulb to come on for you.

Doug

Perhaps you are misunderstanding me?

I believe the ONLY way anyone overcomes sin is this:

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb,

this is when salvation OCCURS.

It cannot ever be through our works, or our doing anything. That is why it is called a free gfit......

THEN:


and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

This is what is the RESULT, OF THE ABOVE.

When He comes to live in you, HE WORKS.

We submit, and through submission, we grow and prosper, and learn the full will of God.

Some quench this part out...but, it does NOT REMOVE THEIR SALVATION.

The reason it says 'they become worse than they were before' is because they will ultimately find themselves ashamed, when HE CORRECTS them, and HE will, and it is NOT possible for HIM not to.