[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

A thought from feedback regarding this thread..

Is the law or laws the result of or even the terms of a/the covenant?

In other words, is the law the covenant? I say no. Though it may relate to the covenant somehow.

[tharindhu008]

it is related to covenant. but not always it

Dashquid
fatlossprofessional.co.uk
fatlossprofessional
mobilehelper
securetrip
whichpetcover
google
abc
facebook
craigslist

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by tharindhu008

it is related to covenant. but not always it

Can we say that it is a shame if people just do good deeds but don't know God?!

[Hawkins]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

The reason for this thread, is to discuss the difference and/or relationship between "the book of the law", and "the book of the covenant".

They both refer to the same book, maybe just from a slidely different perspective. The "book of Covenant" is an emphasis on that it's an agreement between God and the Jews. The "book of Law" is an emphasis on what shall the Jews obey (in accordance to the covenant).

Although by the time the verse "book of Covenant" appears, the 10 commandments are not yet available to Moses, that won't mark a difference between the 2. It only says that the book is not yet a complete book without the 10 commandments, whether you name it "the book of Covenant" or "the book of Law".

(Although before Noah's time there was no covenant, it is however said that Jesus Christ preached to the spirits at Noah's time. So there's a chance that humans before Noah and at Noah's time are under the protection of the New Covenant, no one knows how this can be implemented though)

The question is, "Is God's Covenant with Israel His Law?"

Each covenant is composed of two basic parts, namely the law part and the faith part. The law part specifies "what to obey" while the law part specifies "what to believe".

The 10 commandments are a little bit special, I think. First, they contain the faith specifications such as "you should love your God". Second they contain laws which may be common to all covenants, such as "do not murder, do not steal...". But still they are a mixture of faith plus law. Mostly they can be treated as the Law.

Is this just about the Ten Commandments? Is this about more than the Ten Commandments? And, are the Ten Commandments included? Some say the Ten Commandments are God's moral law.

Technically, the law part of the covenant with Moses contains the 10 commandments, the Oral Torah as well as the written Torah. The faith part is that the Jews need to believe the one and only one true God.

The first covenant is introduced through Noah. As a summary,

1) Before Noah, no covenant
- the absolute version of God's Law is applied (the same Law caused Adam and Lucifer to fall)

Virtually, no humans can abide by this version of God's Law though it can't be judged if Noah can abide by this version of Law. Mostly Noah is considered righteous in God's eye because he has faith in Him, which is, even at this moment righteousness may be measured by faith. Alternatively speaking, God may have already classified Noah to be under the first Covenant instead of His absolute version of Law.

2) The Covenant with Noah:
The faith part: to believe the only true God
The law part: law in heart (the same version of Law applied the the gentiles in Jesus's time and today's non-believers.

The Judge on Judgment Day: Jesus Christ
The primary accuser on Judgment Day: Satan

3) The Covenant with Abraham:
The faith part: to believe the only true God (Abraham himself is with tested faith). From this point faith is strongly emphazied.
The law part: law in heart but with literal laws applied, including circumcision.

The Judge on Judgment Day: Jesus Christ
The primary accuser on Judgment Day: unknown (can be Abraham)

4) The covenant with Moses
The faith part: to believe the only true God (this is literally specified as one of the most important commandments)
The law part: 10 commandments + written Torah + Oral Torah

The Judge on Judgment Day: Jesus Christ
The primary accuser on Judgment Day: Moses

5) The New Covenant
The faith part: to believe the only true God and Jesus Christ
the law part: replaced by Christ teaching and His commands

The Judge on Judgment Day: Jesus Christ
The primary accuser: none, as this is no longer applicable.

It by no means says that Law is forfeited in the New Covenant. Law won't be fortfeted until after the Final Judgment as Law will be used for the Judgment. The law in heart will be used on the Judgment to judge the Gentiles/non-believers. Mosaic Law will be used to judge the Jews under its covenant, and so on.

We still need to uphold Law even under the New Covenant. But the form of how we obey them is changed and re-prioritized.
1) Faith and repentance should take the highest priority as they define whether one is saved or not

2) You need to obey Christ teaching and His commands, while He said that we need to obey the commandments. The difference is that we don't obey them as Law but as His teaching. The difference is that if we failed the Law we are dead, but if we violated a teaching we can still be forgivable.

3) We don't need to abide by the food laws as circumcision. Because the NT Bible says so, that is, the New Covenant says so. If you are in doubt, you can still abide by but they shouldn't take a higher priority than those leading to your salvation such as faith in Christ and repentance and Christ's teaching and His commands. You abide by them only when your own salvation is secured. The same applied to other laws, that is, you uphold them but take good care of your own salvation first. And in case you failed, seek for forgiveness and don't give up.


That's pretty much my 2 cents.

[Untellectual]

I'm proposing that there may be a difference between "the book of the Law" from the text and "the written Torah" which we likely both say comprises the first five books of the Bible. Moses was already dead when the end of Deuteronomy was penned, we know that.

Deuteronomy 31:26 "Take this book of the law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may remain there as a witness against you.

[Hawkins]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

I'm proposing that there may be a difference between "the book of the Law" from the text and "the written Torah" which we likely both say comprises the first five books of the Bible. Moses was already dead when the end of Deuteronomy was penned, we know that.

Deuteronomy 31:26 "Take this book of the law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may remain there as a witness against you.

Yes. In a Jewish sense, the written Torah refers to the 5 books of Law. The "book of Law" is the one book written by Moses. They can be written and authenticated very differently. I think that the book of Law is what later referred to as the Mosaic Law (the written part). It highlights what the Jews should do in accordance to God's instruction.

The 5 book written Torah however is written from a witnessing perspective. Moses does not necessarily write it all by himself, as God may authenticate another witness to write for him, especially the parts concerning his own deeds. But in the end, the 5 book Torah can still be considered as crafted by Moses under the authentication of God. And in this sense, Moses is still the writer of the 5 book Torah.

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by Hawkins

Yes. In a Jewish sense, the written Torah refers to the 5 books of Law. The "book of Law" is the one book written by Moses. They can be written and authenticated very differently. I think that the book of Law is what later referred to as the Mosaic Law (the written part). It highlights what the Jews should do in accordance to God's instruction.

The 5 book written Torah however is written from a witnessing perspective. Moses does not necessarily write it all by himself, as God may authenticate another witness to write for him, especially the parts concerning his own deeds. But in the end, the 5 book Torah can still be considered as crafted by Moses under the authentication of God. And in this sense, Moses is still the writer of the 5 book Torah.

I don't know who wrote the Torah, but I do know that the book of Genesis was written after one of the events in the book of Exodus (when God made His name known).

As for what you call the "book of Law", if Moses wrote a book I am imagining you are saying it was not one of the 5 books of the Torah. Unless you declare which one you think it is.

[student x]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

It has entered into my discussion and thoughts now the idea that there is a difference between a covenant and a law or law code (code of law).

Hi U, I have read your thread, but not the source thought.
Why doesn't 2 Corinthians 3:6 affect this discussion?

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by student x

Hi U, I have read your thread, but not the source thought.
Why doesn't 2 Corinthians 3:6 affect this discussion?

It does. No one is saying it doesn't.

But the OP examines in particular what we attribute to Moses in that the Old Covenant and the Law came to Israel by way of Moses the prophet.

[student x]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

It does. No one is saying it doesn't.

But the OP examines in particular what we attribute to Moses in that the Old Covenant and the Law came to Israel by way of Moses the prophet.

Okay, I apologize for wondering why we are looking back at a shadow without a figure.

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by student x

Okay, I apologize for wondering why we are looking back at a shadow without a figure.

The Old Covenant is relevant to us in the New Covenant, who have never lived under the Old Covenant, because it came to Israel from God. The way in which it is relevant remains to be seen in discussion. However, I am pointing out that if the Law of Moses is moral, and not just the Ten Commandments, and it is from God (which I believe), then we should never speak of it negatively... but only that in Jesus Christ we have something the Law could not do. We have something better. A New Covenant. And yet Jesus said He did not come to abolish the Law. Does that mean He did not come to abolish the Ten Commandments? Or, is there more to it than that?

What is "the moral law"?

Are we to observe the Ten Commandments today (in this day and age)?

[moldstadt]

I know I'm a bit late on this thread, but the main question is something that I was wondering about.

Originally Posted by Untellectual

The reason for this thread, is to discuss the difference and/or relationship between "the book of the law", and "the book of the covenant".

From the relevant verses I have found, it seems like there was a difference between the "Book of the Covenant" and the "Book of the Law". It seems to me that the former was given at about the same time as the ten commandments, in Horeb, and the latter was given after Israel's unfaithfulness, at Moab. I think that what is found in Exodus and Leviticus was taken from the Book of the Covenant and what is found in Deuteronomy was taken from the Book of the Law. I am not sure of this though.

1 Ki 8:9: There was nothing in the ark except the two tablets of stone that Moses put there at Horeb, where the LORD made a covenant with the people of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.

Dt 4:13: And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Ex 24:7: Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it in the hearing of the people. And they said, All that the LORD has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient.

Dt 29:1: These are the words of the covenant that the LORD commanded Moses to make with the people of Israel in the land of Moab, besides the covenant that he had made with them at Horeb.

Dt 30:10: when you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Originally Posted by Untellectual

I don't know who wrote the Torah, but I do know that the book of Genesis was written after one of the events in the book of Exodus (when God made His name known).

I used to think this way as well, but I think this might not be the correct way to view this. It seems more likely that God had already revealed his name to man, before the account in Exodus. Perhaps Moses didn't know it, since he had grown up as an Egyptian.

Gen 4:26: To Seth also a son was born, and he called his name Enosh. At that time people began to call upon the name of the LORD.

That said, I think there is other evidence that the Torah was written down after God spoke to Moses.

Michael.

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by moldstadt

I know I'm a bit late on this thread, but the main question is something that I was wondering about.

From the relevant verses I have found, it seems like there was a difference between the "Book of the Covenant" and the "Book of the Law". It seems to me that the former was given at about the same time as the ten commandments, in Horeb, and the latter was given after Israel's unfaithfulness, at Moab. I think that what is found in Exodus and Leviticus was taken from the Book of the Covenant and what is found in Deuteronomy was taken from the Book of the Law. I am not sure of this though.

1 Ki 8:9: There was nothing in the ark except the two tablets of stone that Moses put there at Horeb, where the LORD made a covenant with the people of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.

Dt 4:13: And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Ex 24:7: Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it in the hearing of the people. And they said, All that the LORD has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient.

Dt 29:1: These are the words of the covenant that the LORD commanded Moses to make with the people of Israel in the land of Moab, besides the covenant that he had made with them at Horeb.

Dt 30:10: when you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

I used to think this way as well, but I think this might not be the correct way to view this. It seems more likely that God had already revealed his name to man, before the account in Exodus. Perhaps Moses didn't know it, since he had grown up as an Egyptian.

Gen 4:26: To Seth also a son was born, and he called his name Enosh. At that time people began to call upon the name of the LORD.

That said, I think there is other evidence that the Torah was written down after God spoke to Moses.

Michael.

The phrase "book of the law" and "book of the covenant" I think are shown to be from the same literary context. That is, they are found in the same passage. The law was given to Moses. When was the covenant made with the people? Moses gave the law to the people. I need to find the specific verses on this.

These verses may help you regarding God's name, the transliteration from Hebrew being "YHVH", which is found in the English as LORD or JEHOVAH.

Exodus 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this [is] my name for ever, and this [is] my memorial unto all generations.

Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by [the name of] God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

[moldstadt]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

The phrase "book of the law" and "book of the covenant" I think are shown to be from the same literary context. That is, they are found in the same passage.

It does seem that at a later date (in Josiah's time), they were considered to be one book, but originally they seem to have been separate. Moses read from the "Book of the Covenant" (Ex 24:7) long before the "Book of the Law" was written (Dt 29-31).

Originally Posted by Untellectual

The law was given to Moses. When was the covenant made with the people? Moses gave the law to the people. I need to find the specific verses on this.

This is how I am seeing it: The first covenant was made a Horeb (Sinai) and was written on the tablets of stone (Ex 34:28, Dt 4:13, Dt 9:10-11). This was accompanied by the fineprint in the Book of the Covenant, which Moses wrote at God's dictation at the same time (Ex 24, Ex 34:27). However, the Israelites were unfaithful to this covenant and had to wander in the desert for 40 years. Thereafter, God made a second covenant with them, in Moab (Dt 29:1). This was accompanied by the Book of the Law which Moses also wrote (Dt 31:24-26) at God's dictation. This had more specific laws in it, relating to when Israel would enter the promised land.

With regards to God revealing his name to man, how do you understand Gen 4:6, which states that "at that time people began to call on the name of YHWH"?

Michael.

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by moldstadt

It does seem that at a later date (in Josiah's time), they were considered to be one book, but originally they seem to have been separate. Moses read from the "Book of the Covenant" (Ex 24:7) long before the "Book of the Law" was written (Dt 29-31).



This is how I am seeing it: The first covenant was made a Horeb (Sinai) and was written on the tablets of stone (Ex 34:28, Dt 4:13, Dt 9:10-11). This was accompanied by the fineprint in the Book of the Covenant, which Moses wrote at God's dictation at the same time (Ex 24, Ex 34:27). However, the Israelites were unfaithful to this covenant and had to wander in the desert for 40 years. Thereafter, God made a second covenant with them, in Moab (Dt 29:1). This was accompanied by the Book of the Law which Moses also wrote (Dt 31:24-26) at God's dictation. This had more specific laws in it, relating to when Israel would enter the promised land.

With regards to God revealing his name to man, how do you understand Gen 4:6, which states that "at that time people began to call on the name of YHWH"?

Michael.

My understanding is that Genesis was written after the events with Moses where God's name was revealed.