[WizardofOz]

Originally Posted by keypurr

When does a baby breath through its nostrils?

Again, how is this relevant? Should abortion be legal in the 9th month of pregnancy and up until birth and that first breath?

If you don't think it should be, the above is irrelevant.

Silent Hunter should feel free to answer this as well....that way his little red herring can be put to rest as well.

Defining personhood should be the first step in any abortion law.
Thats all I am saying.

Attempting to get a concensus on the definition of "personhood" is where any sincere discussion on the subject of aborition goes to die.

Debating semantics has nothing to do with the actual topic.

[Angel4Truth]

Originally Posted by Silent Hunter

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Well then you aren't alive either since you seem to believe that verse alone defines God breathed life, since God didn't directly breath into your nostrils after you were created from the dust of the earth.

[keypurr]

Originally Posted by WizardofOz

Again, how is this relevant? Should abortion be legal in the 9th month of pregnancy and up until birth and that first breath?

If you don't think it should be, the above is irrelevant.

Silent Hunter should feel free to answer this as well....that way his little red herring can be put to rest as well.



Attempting to get a concensus on the definition of "personhood" is where any sincere discussion on the subject of aborition goes to die.

Debating semantics has nothing to do with the actual topic.

I see a difference between fetus and a child. Personhood would define that difference. If your going by scripture to make the defination for you then produce one that says the fetrus is a person (soul).

A fetus is a child in development, not a child. If your going to make laws to protect children in development define when they are children.

No one in their right mind wants to hurt or kill children. To make a blanket law to stop some folks from have a life saving abortion is not right. To make someone give birth to a rape child is not right either. Surely that child would face a life time of hate. So there are cses where abortion might be the best way for a woman to go. That decision should always be hers, not yours, not mine. For the fetus is not a person until it is born. Gen 2:7

Its a tough question, I am glad that I do not have to worry about it any more. But abortion should NEVER be used as a method of birth control.

Peace

[alwight]

Originally Posted by WizardofOz

Again, how is this relevant? Should abortion be legal in the 9th month of pregnancy and up until birth and that first breath?

If you don't think it should be, the above is irrelevant.

Silent Hunter should feel free to answer this as well....that way his little red herring can be put to rest as well.



Attempting to get a concensus on the definition of "personhood" is where any sincere discussion on the subject of aborition goes to die.

Debating semantics has nothing to do with the actual topic.

The OP video talks about making abortion on demand illegal in the US, while here in the UK abortion on demand is already illegal. However in practice it shouldn't prevent a reasonably considered and timely abortion occurring. The idea that a woman could simply decide at the last moment to abort a healthy foetus is not part of my own otherwise pro-choice thinking at least.
I don't know how often such late abortions actually do happen in the US, I'd guess not many, are they not rather a red herring here?

[Silent Hunter]

Originally Posted by WizardofOz

Again, how is this relevant? Should abortion be legal in the 9th month of pregnancy and up until birth and that first breath?

If you don't think it should be, the above is irrelevant.

Silent Hunter should feel free to answer this as well....that way his little red herring can be put to rest as well.

Red herring? I'm quoting from the book which states unequivocally when a person "becomes" a "living soul" . . . that being . . . at first breath.

[WizardofOz]

Originally Posted by alwight

The OP video talks about making abortion on demand illegal in the US, while here in the UK abortion on demand is already illegal. However in practice it shouldn't prevent a reasonably considered and timely abortion occurring. The idea that a woman could simply decide at the last moment to abort a healthy foetus is not part of my own otherwise pro-choice thinking at least.
I don't know how often such late abortions actually do happen in the US, I'd guess not many, are they not rather a red herring here?

You have not been following the thread.

keypurr and Silent Hunter are arguing that a fetus is not a "person" or does not embody "personhood" until they are born and take their first breath.

However, unless they think abortion should be legal at any point during pregnancy, the point they think they are making is actually a red herring.

[WizardofOz]

Originally Posted by Silent Hunter

Red herring? I'm quoting from the book which states unequivocally when a person "becomes" a "living soul" . . . that being . . . at first breath.

This can be settled rather easily.

Should a woman be able to get an abortion at any point prior to the first breath of the baby being taken?

If you don't think so, your "tactic" is nothing but a red herring.

[WizardofOz]

Originally Posted by keypurr

I see a difference between fetus and a child.

As do I

Personhood would define that difference. If your going by scripture to make the defination for you then produce one that says the fetrus is a person (soul).

A fetus is a child in development, not a child. If your going to make laws to protect children in development define when they are children.

"Personhood" is impossible to define in a way to gain a consensus. It is ambiguous and subjective. We should stick with what we know, biologically speaking.

Is a newborn a "child"? Seems we'd only be dealing with more ambiguity.

No one in their right mind wants to hurt or kill children.

By allowing them to be killed before they can become children prevents the hurt or death of children?

To make a blanket law to stop some folks from have a life saving abortion is not right.

Don't abort to end the life of the fetus. Remove the fetus and try to save it.

To make someone give birth to a rape child is not right either.

Adoption. Someone wants to love that child if the mother cannot.

Surely that child would face a life time of hate.

It would be better to have been aborted than to never have lived? I hope children that were conceived from rape never read your hurtful words.

For the fetus is not a person until it is born. Gen 2:7

Again, should abortion be legal at any point prior to the first breath being taken? If you don't agree that it should be legal, presenting Gen 2:7 is such an obvious red herring.

But abortion should NEVER be used as a method of birth control.

But it is being used for just that a majority of the time. You are allowing exceptions to superseded the rule in an attempt to rationalize.

[Silent Hunter]

Originally Posted by WizardofOz

This can be settled rather easily.

Should a woman be able to get an abortion at any point prior to the first breath of the baby being taken?

IF the born baby CAN take a breath and live then according to your bible . . . no.

If you don't think so, your "tactic" is nothing but a red herring.

Either way you look at it there is no red herring since no one but you is trying to change the subject . . . and that into a straw man.

Is your bible to be trusted as the sourcebook of truth . . . or not?

[alwight]

Originally Posted by WizardofOz

You have not been following the thread.

keypurr and Silent Hunter are arguing that a fetus is not a "person" or does not embody "personhood" until they are born and take their first breath.

However, unless they think abortion should be legal at any point during pregnancy, the point they think they are making is actually a red herring.

I disagree that I have been remiss, all they have said imo is that for them a person is not present from the moment of conception.

Keypurr, rather like I do, seems to think that a person rather comes about during the course of development, a matter of opinion as to exactly when that is.

SH had asked where in the Bible would there be guidance for Christian views, not for his own view, and pointed out that Adam taking a breath might be a possible sign, but that actually there is none. However doctrine to one side, keypurr at least is clearly not advocating that his own view is "first-breath" and neither is SH either I suspect.
Clearly both of them agree as do I that abortions should of course be legal under the proper circumstances, if not simply on demand.

[drbrumley]

Originally Posted by alwight

Keypurr, rather like I do, seems to think that a person rather comes about during the course of development,

So in the course of development, it can develop into, say an ape?

[alwight]

Originally Posted by drbrumley

So in the course of development, it can develop into, say an ape?

Humans are already apes, do you want to suggest something else?

[drbrumley]

Originally Posted by alwight

Humans are already apes, do you want to suggest something else?

Really?

[alwight]

Originally Posted by drbrumley

Really?

Yeah Google it sometime.

[Lighthouse]

Anyone who thinks life, or personhood, begins at first breath should not be opposed to killing the baby right after birth, before it is made to draw it's first breath.