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December 1st, 2012, 10:10 PM

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Originally Posted by sky. View Post
rainee, you are not going to learn anything about loyalty if you keep pointing fingers. The lesson is "loyalty" not who was is more loyal. That is the idea of headship. Not focusing on the supposed hardship or subjection of being loyal but just being loyal.
Hi Sky
- my hooyay changed to hooray in your quote of my post in this one of yours, but hooray is not what I meant.

I will think about what you are saying about loyalty.



   
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December 1st, 2012, 10:38 PM

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Originally Posted by rainee View Post
Hi Sky
- my hooray changed to hooray in your quote of my post in this one of yours, but hooray is not what I meant.

I will think about what you are saying about loyalty.
rainee, they were both less than loyal to God and each other that said Satan was an added factor for Eve but not for Adam. Adam sinned against God with his eyes wide open. Rebellion.



   
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December 2nd, 2012, 12:41 PM

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Originally Posted by sky. View Post
Adam did what the wife told him to do when he already knew it was wrong. Adam rebelled by not taking his place in the headship.

Adam's sin was the same as Jesus'. - Adam gave himself for his wife. -- Remember, - Adam was the Head of Eve his wife, and neither died that day because of Adam's scrifice.

Adam lived 930 years after the sin and they lived 70 years, as we know years, before the sin in Paradise. - That is a total of exactly 1000 years, which is a symbol of eternity!!!!!!!!!

Paul -- 120212





---Gal. 4:16.
---"Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth"???
   
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December 2nd, 2012, 12:58 PM

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Originally Posted by Letsargue View Post
Adam's sin was the same as Jesus'. - Adam gave himself for his wife. -- Remember, - Adam was the Head of Eve his wife, and neither died that day because of Adam'sacrifice.

Adam lived 930 years after the sin and they lived 70 years, as we know years, before the sin in Paradise. - That is a total of exactly 1000 years, which is a symbol of eternity!!!!!!!!!

Paul -- 120212
They died "spiritually" on that day. Their conscience was expanded. I think that is the way I learned it.



   
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December 2nd, 2012, 01:51 PM

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Originally Posted by sky. View Post
Yes, I believe that disobeying the known commands of God is rebellion against God. When Satan entered the picture in the garden with Eve there was another force at work but when she presented the same idea to Adam he should have known by his conscience alone that he was going against a known command.
From what I read in the narrative, Eve knew full well the command of God, for she initially defended and quoted God to the serpent. This would be her disobeying a command she fully knew, thus rebelling. If anything Adam's guilty first for not speaking up, when this whole conversation was taking place. For the narrative says He was with her. I see Adam having the possible opportunity to prevent the disobedience of Eve. So I see Eve,"deceived" obeying Satan over God, and Adam obeying Satan and his wife over God. I think they're both equally guilty of rebellion. If God considered Eve an innocent party then He has a strange way of expressing it with,
“I will greatly multiply
Your pain in childbirth,
In pain you will bring forth children;
Yet your desire will be for your husband,
And he will rule over you.”







Crown Him, ye martyrs of your God, who from His altar call;
Hail Him Who saves you by His grace, and crown Him Lord of all!
Let every tribe and every tongue before Him prostrate fall;
The God incarnate, Man divine, and crown Him Lord of all!
"Apart from me you can do nothing."~Jesus


Phil. 3:8 (ESV)
   
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December 2nd, 2012, 01:59 PM

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Originally Posted by 2COR12:9 View Post
From what I read in the narrative, Eve knew full well the command of God, for she initially defended and quoted God to the serpent. This would be her disobeying a command she fully knew, thus rebelling. If anything Adam's guilty first for not speaking up, when this whole conversation was taking place. For the narrative says He was with her. I see Adam having the possible opportunity to prevent the disobedience of Eve. So I see Eve,"deceived" obeying Satan over God, and Adam obeying Satan and his wife over God. I think they're both equally guilty of rebellion. If God considered Eve an innocent party then He has a strange way of expressing it with,
“I will greatly multiply
Your pain in childbirth,
In pain you will bring forth children;
Yet your desire will be for your husband,
And he will rule over you.”


When Satan approached Eve in the garden, he confronts her about the tree of knowledge. Eve rehearsed the commandment that God had given to them about this tree saying, “from the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat, but of the tree that is in the midst of the garden you may not eat from it or touch it lest you die.” It is very clear that she understood both the commandment and its consequences. This represents a revealed language structure about certain truths concerning this tree that she could not know any other way. Satan then introduced a new way of thinking about what is true. He portrays this revealed grammar as unreliable and not to be trusted. “You shall not surely die for God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God knowing good and evil.” The idea obviously appealed to Eve but the force of the temptation was more than just a desire to be like God. This new way of representing truth offered a means by which control could be shifted from God to man.

Eve relies upon an unrevealed method for making decisions. Rather than consulting God and relying upon revelation which, by her own admission she understood, she relies instead upon her five senses operating in this natural world to formulate her epistemological base. She “rationalizes” (a knowledged based thinking process) why it would be acceptable to eat that which had been forbidden. This reveals a distorted ethic in the misappropriation of things that belong to God. She contemplated stealing that which belongs to God and then attempted to justify the rightness of it in her own mind.

Satan’s temptation was two-fold based upon the decision matrix of the woman. This would imply that Satan understood something of the psychology of the woman and he capitalizes on her naiveté. Experientially, Eve knows nothing of Satan, temptation, evil, craftiness, the pain of disobedience, or death. The serpent creates doubt in her mind about the motives, character, and purpose of God. He accused God of lying and planted the seed of evil ambition. “God knows that in the day you eat of it you will become like God.” The reality was that they were already like God. He creates suspicion in the mind of the woman by implying that God is deliberately withholding something from her that is both desirable and beneficial. It implies that, 1) man is just as good as God is, 2) God is unjust in this prohibition, and 3) man has the right to be God. This is a challenge of God’s sovereignty. At the heart of this, is the question of who has the right to be in control? Who has the right to decide what is best for man? A worldly epistemology says that man has the wisdom to decide what is best for him. A revealed epistemology says that God not only knows what is best he is also able to supply it.

Satan then makes an appeal to the empirical and aesthetic observation. Eve saw that the fruit was good for food and was pleasing to the eye. He also appeals to the subjective impulse; it was desirable to make one wise, which the text defines as knowing good from evil. Where then was the sin? The sin was allowing human logic and rationalization to overrule the revelation of God. This is a propensity of humanly derived standards of ethics. The decision was made by appealing to an uninspired epistemology rather than to the words of the Lord. Human logic and rationalization are not valid determinants for deciding what is right or wrong. God said, “Don’t touch it.” This alone determines what is right or wrong.



   
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December 2nd, 2012, 02:37 PM

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Originally Posted by oldhermit View Post
When Satan approached Eve in the garden, he confronts her about the tree of knowledge. Eve rehearsed the commandment that God had given to them about this tree saying, “from the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat, but of the tree that is in the midst of the garden you may not eat from it or touch it lest you die.” It is very clear that she understood both the commandment and its consequences. This represents a revealed language structure about certain truths concerning this tree that she could not know any other way. Satan then introduced a new way of thinking about what is true. He portrays this revealed grammar as unreliable and not to be trusted. “You shall not surely die for God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God knowing good and evil.” The idea obviously appealed to Eve but the force of the temptation was more than just a desire to be like God. This new way of representing truth offered a means by which control could be shifted from God to man.

Eve relies upon an unrevealed method for making decisions. Rather than consulting God and relying upon revelation which, by her own admission she understood, she relies instead upon her five senses operating in this natural world to formulate her epistemological base. She “rationalizes” (a knowledged based thinking process) why it would be acceptable to eat that which had been forbidden. This reveals a distorted ethic in the misappropriation of things that belong to God. She contemplated stealing that which belongs to God and then attempted to justify the rightness of it in her own mind.

Satan’s temptation was two-fold based upon the decision matrix of the woman. This would imply that Satan understood something of the psychology of the woman and he capitalizes on her naiveté. Experientially, Eve knows nothing of Satan, temptation, evil, craftiness, the pain of disobedience, or death. The serpent creates doubt in her mind about the motives, character, and purpose of God. He accused God of lying and planted the seed of evil ambition. “God knows that in the day you eat of it you will become like God.” The reality was that they were already like God. He creates suspicion in the mind of the woman by implying that God is deliberately withholding something from her that is both desirable and beneficial. It implies that, 1) man is just as good as God is, 2) God is unjust in this prohibition, and 3) man has the right to be God. This is a challenge of God’s sovereignty. At the heart of this, is the question of who has the right to be in control? Who has the right to decide what is best for man? A worldly epistemology says that man has the wisdom to decide what is best for him. A revealed epistemology says that God not only knows what is best he is also able to supply it.

Satan then makes an appeal to the empirical and aesthetic observation. Eve saw that the fruit was good for food and was pleasing to the eye. He also appeals to the subjective impulse; it was desirable to make one wise, which the text defines as knowing good from evil. Where then was the sin? The sin was allowing human logic and rationalization to overrule the revelation of God. This is a propensity of humanly derived standards of ethics. The decision was made by appealing to an uninspired epistemology rather than to the words of the Lord. Human logic and rationalization are not valid determinants for deciding what is right or wrong. God said, “Don’t touch it.” This alone determines what is right or wrong.
A wonderful description of the possible perception and workings of the psyche in the first woman. So even though the basis of the action was produced from a relying upon, an appealing to, an insufficient decision epistemically. Is it safe to say that there was laid upon her the guilt of rebellion, as you say, 'God said, “Don’t touch it.” This alone determines what is right or wrong.'







Crown Him, ye martyrs of your God, who from His altar call;
Hail Him Who saves you by His grace, and crown Him Lord of all!
Let every tribe and every tongue before Him prostrate fall;
The God incarnate, Man divine, and crown Him Lord of all!
"Apart from me you can do nothing."~Jesus


Phil. 3:8 (ESV)
   
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December 2nd, 2012, 02:41 PM

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Originally Posted by 2COR12:9 View Post
A wonderful description of the possible perception and workings of the psyche in the first woman. So even though the basis of the action was produced from a relying upon, an appealing to, an insufficient decision epistemically. Is it safe to say that there was laid upon her the guilt of rebellion, as you say, 'God said, “Don’t touch it.” This alone determines what is right or wrong.'
All sin is an act of rebellion. It is a defiance of a revealed ethic no matter what particular sin may be involved. They both sinned thus thy both rebelled against the prohibition of the tree. Deception was merely the mothod of inciting that rebellion.



   
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December 2nd, 2012, 02:43 PM

2COR12:9

I recognize a snake. So I defer your posts to the men.



   
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December 2nd, 2012, 02:44 PM

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2COR12:9

I recognize a snake. So I defer your posts to the men.
LOL. No. Just kill the snake.



   
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December 2nd, 2012, 02:56 PM

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Originally Posted by sky. View Post
2COR12:9

I recognize a snake. So I defer your posts to the men.
What are you implying? If you're claiming my response as being one of a snake's, I think that's unwarranted. I was pretty straightforward, in dealing with the text, there's no reason to defer your answer to someone else. It wasn't necessary for me to be "shrewd as a serpent" in my response.







Crown Him, ye martyrs of your God, who from His altar call;
Hail Him Who saves you by His grace, and crown Him Lord of all!
Let every tribe and every tongue before Him prostrate fall;
The God incarnate, Man divine, and crown Him Lord of all!
"Apart from me you can do nothing."~Jesus


Phil. 3:8 (ESV)
   
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December 2nd, 2012, 03:24 PM

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Originally Posted by sky. View Post
2COR12:9

I recognize a snake. So I defer your posts to the men.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldhermit View Post
LOL. No. Just kill the snake.
Let me translate; he is dead to me.



   
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December 2nd, 2012, 04:11 PM

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Originally Posted by sky. View Post
Let me translate; he is dead to me.
I don't understand why you would consider me dead to you, for simply not agreeing on all theological matters. I have never disrespected you as a person with insults or unkindness. I have not intended for you to wish to disassociate yourself with me completely, solely on the basis of differentiating opinions. I still completely love you as a person, and believer in Christ, I would hope you could extend the same courtesy. You must've known that partaking in a theological debating forum there would be a difference in opinions that wouldn't align with your own; then why would you respond as if they're an unexpected personal attack of a sort, when there is no malicious intent involved. Can you not just simply disagree with me, and peacefully leave it at that, instead of completely writing me off for responding to one of your posts with an alternate point of view. My intentions are to discuss these matters that are presented, not to create enemies. So I'm sorry if I have offended, that was not my motivation. Peace.







Crown Him, ye martyrs of your God, who from His altar call;
Hail Him Who saves you by His grace, and crown Him Lord of all!
Let every tribe and every tongue before Him prostrate fall;
The God incarnate, Man divine, and crown Him Lord of all!
"Apart from me you can do nothing."~Jesus


Phil. 3:8 (ESV)
   
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December 2nd, 2012, 08:20 PM

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Originally Posted by Nang View Post
Adam knew better and deliberately rebelled causing the curse of death upon all creation.

Nang
Wow. A post I am not going to bomb into oblivian. Good job.





Jesus saves completely.

Titus 1:10-11

For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

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December 2nd, 2012, 08:38 PM

Quote:
Sky
I recognize a snake. So I defer your posts to the men.
Quote:
oldhermit
LOL. No. Just kill the snake.
Quote:
2Cor.12:9
What are you implying? If you're claiming my response as being one of a snake's, I think that's unwarranted. I was pretty straightforward, in dealing with the text, there's no reason to defer your answer to someone else. It wasn't necessary for me to be "shrewd as a serpent" in my response.
I think I missed something here???



   
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