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March 5th, 2013, 11:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Choleric View Post
Not for our sins only but the sins of the whole world.

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True but who is the "we" who sits with Him in heavenly places that they should go on living like the world?



   
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March 5th, 2013, 12:40 PM

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Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
True but who is the "we" who sits with Him in heavenly places that they should go on living like the world?
Non sequitur. Nobody said we should keep on sinning. But Jesus died for our sins (saved Christians) and not our sin only but the sins of the whole world (unsaved people)





Your issue is one of AUTHORITY. All heresy starts and ends where a person sets themselves above God's Word and becomes their own authority. It is disguised as "textual criticism" and "scholarship". All of it ends where the first lie began "Hath God Said?"
   
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March 5th, 2013, 06:20 PM

Choleric,

You have to tell your kids that you aren't sure if Jesus died for them, I don't have to say that.
No-one should be telling any unregenerate person that Christ died for them.
Says calvin, not the bible. Christ was sent for the sins of the whole world. That is in the bible verbatim.
Rather, the fact that there is no preaching to anyone in Acts that Christ was their substitute, tells us that your understanding of the verbatim is errant. The consistent omission in Acts is simply too significant to be incidental.





1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
That He died for sins, does not mean He died as a substitute.

It means that because we were sinners He had to go under the law which rendered us sinners, to redeem us from it. The only way to redeem us from it would be to be judicially executed by it.

For we being in Him as Eve was in Adam, were betrothed to Him according to law, and needed Him to die so that we might be married to Him who was raised from the dead and who would be a husband-proper to us, the figure for such consisting of Adam's being put to sleep and then Eve’s being taken out of him and presented to him as his wife. This is what Rom 7:1-4 is talking about.

So His dying for sins simply means that, because we were sinners, He would have to die to self to render our sin of no account. And dying to self meant He had to render the law which separated Himself from His bride null and void.

The issue is understood in the marital paradigm: the husband absorbs the iniquities of his wife without bringing retribution against her.

So the issue is death to self, not martyrdom.

Your ‘understanding’ is intermediate-level Christianity: it consists of approximations rather than that which is technically correct.

And the problem is that you think you know, when you don’t. And because you think you know, you miss out on so much from the Lord.

I refer viewers who do want to learn to my thread: “Jesus Christ our sacrifice, not our substitute”.




Last edited by Colossians; March 6th, 2013 at 03:31 AM..
   
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March 5th, 2013, 06:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Choleric View Post
Non sequitur. Nobody said we should keep on sinning. But Jesus died for our sins (saved Christians) and not our sin only but the sins of the whole world (unsaved people)
Oh, OK. Now I get it. Gotcha!



   
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March 6th, 2013, 07:48 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colossians View Post
Choleric,

You have to tell your kids that you aren't sure if Jesus died for them, I don't have to say that.
No-one should be telling any unregenerate person that Christ died for them.
Says calvin, not the bible. Christ was sent for the sins of the whole world. That is in the bible verbatim.
Rather, the fact that there is no preaching to anyone in Acts that Christ was their substitute, tells us that your understanding of the verbatim is errant. The consistent omission in Acts is simply too significant to be incidental.





1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
That He died for sins, does not mean He died as a substitute.
Not sure why you are so determined to make a distinction.

Quote:
It means that because we were sinners He had to go under the law which rendered us sinners, to redeem us from it. The only way to redeem us from it would be to be judicially executed by it.
Jesus died to pay for our sins. He was made to be sin for me so I might be made the righteousness of God in Hjm.

He died "for our sins". This is clear

Quote:
For we being in Him as Eve was in Adam, were betrothed to Him according to law, and needed Him to die so that we might be married to Him who was raised from the dead and who would be a husband-proper to us, the figure for such consisting of Adam's being put to sleep and then Eve’s being taken out of him and presented to him as his wife. This is what Rom 7:1-4 is talking about.
Rom 7 1-4 is speaking of our being married to our old man, the flesh, which was under the law. God, thought the operation of God, put our body of flesh to death. Romans 6 says it clearly. Because our old man is dead, we are free from the law and able to be married to another, who is Christ.

Quote:
So His dying for sins simply means that, because we were sinners, He would have to die to self to render our sin of no account. And dying to self meant He had to render the law which separated Himself from His bride null and void.
His dying for sins was simply that, dying for our sins. We needed atonement and He provided it for us. Without the shedding if blood there is no remission. His blood is better than bulls and goats

Quote:
The issue is understood in the marital paradigm: the husband absorbs the iniquities of his wife without bringing retribution against her.

So the issue is death to self, not martyrdom.
The issue is you had sins that were damning your soul, and Christ paid for them so you wouldn't have to.

Quote:
Your ‘understanding’ is intermediate-level Christianity: it consists of approximations rather than that which is technically correct.
Jesus didn't "die to self" and my salvation is not due to my "dying to self" Or to His dying to self. Not sure what point you are trying to make.

Quote:
And the problem is that you think you know, when you don’t. And because you think you know, you miss out on so much from the Lord.
I know why Jesus went to the Cross. Do you?

What exactly am I missing out on?





Your issue is one of AUTHORITY. All heresy starts and ends where a person sets themselves above God's Word and becomes their own authority. It is disguised as "textual criticism" and "scholarship". All of it ends where the first lie began "Hath God Said?"
   
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March 6th, 2013, 08:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Choleric View Post
Not sure why you are so determined to make a distinction.



Jesus died to pay for our sins. He was made to be sin for me so I might be made the righteousness of God in Hjm.

He died "for our sins". This is clear



Rom 7 1-4 is speaking of our being married to our old man, the flesh, which was under the law. God, thought the operation of God, put our body of flesh to death. Romans 6 says it clearly. Because our old man is dead, we are free from the law and able to be married to another, who is Christ.
And if you don't live like He did, where does that leave you?? If you then don't pursue to know God as a Father, where does that leave you??



   
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March 6th, 2013, 08:57 AM

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Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
And if you don't live like He did, where does that leave you?? If you then don't pursue to know God as a Father, where does that leave you??
I would be chastened as a Son, so I wouldn't be condemned with the world.

1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Much like the man in 1 Cor 5, who was caught in an incestuous relationship, he was "to be saved in the day of the Lord", even though his chastening included being handed over to the devil for the destruction of the flesh.

Much like those in 1 Cor 11 who were abusing the Lords table, some were weak, other sick and some were "asleep". They were all still God's child, all still saved, but were being chastened as disobedient children.





Your issue is one of AUTHORITY. All heresy starts and ends where a person sets themselves above God's Word and becomes their own authority. It is disguised as "textual criticism" and "scholarship". All of it ends where the first lie began "Hath God Said?"
   
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March 6th, 2013, 09:07 AM

[QUOTE=Choleric;3378491]
Quote:
I would be chastened as a Son, so I wouldn't be condemned with the world.
If you don't seek to know God as Father, He would chasten you?? You'd better busy, doncha think?



   
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March 6th, 2013, 09:12 AM

[QUOTE=Cross Reference;3378501]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choleric View Post

If you don't seek to know God as Father, He would chasten you?? You'd better busy, doncha think?
It is my desire to "draw nigh" unto God. What point are you attempting to make? Why not just say it instead of attempting to goad me into it?





Your issue is one of AUTHORITY. All heresy starts and ends where a person sets themselves above God's Word and becomes their own authority. It is disguised as "textual criticism" and "scholarship". All of it ends where the first lie began "Hath God Said?"
   
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March 6th, 2013, 09:29 AM

[QUOTE=Choleric;3378504]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post

It is my desire to "draw nigh" unto God. What point are you attempting to make? Why not just say it instead of attempting to goad me into it?
I am trying to do just that because you don't know that "intimacy" with Him is what God is after from us who claim His Name. cf John 17:3. So the question is not about some ambiguous "drawing nigh" but a definite "seeking Him to KNOW Him". Knowing God is what kept Jesus.

To know=be intimate with as in a marriage.___________Father and son relationship.



   
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March 6th, 2013, 10:17 AM

[QUOTE=Cross Reference;3378522]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choleric View Post

I am trying to do just that because you don't know that "intimacy" with Him is what God is after from us who claim His Name. cf John 17:3. So the question is not about some ambiguous "drawing nigh" but a definite "seeking Him to KNOW Him". Knowing God is what kept Jesus.

To know=be intimate with as in a marriage.___________Father and son relationship.
You say "you don't know what intimacy with Him is." Are you attempting to pick a fight, or do you have some evidence to that effect?

And "drawing nigh" is not ambiguous, is is taken verbatim from the Scripture as what God wants from His children. If you don't like the verbiage, take it up with God.





Your issue is one of AUTHORITY. All heresy starts and ends where a person sets themselves above God's Word and becomes their own authority. It is disguised as "textual criticism" and "scholarship". All of it ends where the first lie began "Hath God Said?"
   
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March 6th, 2013, 11:43 AM

[QUOTE=Choleric;3378568]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post

You say "you don't know what intimacy with Him is." Are you attempting to pick a fight, or do you have some evidence to that effect?

And "drawing nigh" is not ambiguous, is is taken verbatim from the Scripture as what God wants from His children. If you don't like the verbiage, take it up with God.
Children?? It was spoken to unbelievers__to the unregenerate! Baptists

"Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded." James 4:8 (KJV)

Now you take it to God and get understanding as to where you stand in the matter.

Intimacy per Jn 17:3 is what He is after from those who claim His name. It is not arguable. You really don't want to do that, do you? Why would you? Why would anyone?



   
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March 6th, 2013, 11:48 AM

[QUOTE=Cross Reference;3378682]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choleric View Post

Children?? It was spoken to unbelievers__to the unregenerate!

"Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded." James 4:8 (KJV)

Now you take it to God and get understanding as to where you stand in the matter.

Intimacy per Jn 17:3 is what He is after from those who claim His name. It is not arguable. You really don't want to do that, do you? Why would you? Why would anyone?
He was not talking to unbelievers. That is your imagination.

You said that I don't know what intimacy with the father is. I asked if you had proof of that. I assume you don't have any. So again I ask you what exactly is your point in all of this?





Your issue is one of AUTHORITY. All heresy starts and ends where a person sets themselves above God's Word and becomes their own authority. It is disguised as "textual criticism" and "scholarship". All of it ends where the first lie began "Hath God Said?"
   
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March 6th, 2013, 12:19 PM

[QUOTE=Choleric;3378687][QUOTE=Cross Reference;3378682]
Quote:
He was not talking to unbelievers. That is your imagination.
Then you don't read anything for understanding, do you? I read the word, "doubleminded". Jesus has no place in the life of one who is. Now, what does that make them, aside from "sinners".

Quote:
You said that I don't know what intimacy with the father is. I asked if you had proof of that. I assume you don't have any. So again I ask you what exactly is your point in all of this?
At the start I thought I might find agreement or at least curiosity and a desire to know more than the nominal Christian perspective.. My mistake.



   
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March 6th, 2013, 12:35 PM

[QUOTE=Cross Reference;3378721][QUOTE=Choleric;3378687]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post


Then you don't read anything for understanding, do you? I read the word, "doubleminded". Jesus has no place in the life of one who is. Now, what does that make them, aside from "sinners".



At the start I thought I might find agreement or at least curiosity and a desire to know more than the nominal Christian perspective.. My mistake.
You are strange. Have a good day





Your issue is one of AUTHORITY. All heresy starts and ends where a person sets themselves above God's Word and becomes their own authority. It is disguised as "textual criticism" and "scholarship". All of it ends where the first lie began "Hath God Said?"
   
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