TheologyOnline, religion, politics, forum
Go Back   Theology Online | Christian Forums & More > Politics, Religion, And The Rest > Religion > Exclusively Christian Theology
Reload this Page ECT: The Five Solas
Exclusively Christian Theology This forum is exclusively for those who consider themselves Christian and consider the Bible to be the inspired word of God.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  (#31) Old
faramir77 faramir77 is offline
Old Timer
 faramir77's Avatar

 


Reputation:
faramir77 will become famous soon enoughfaramir77 will become famous soon enoughfaramir77 will become famous soon enoughfaramir77 will become famous soon enoughfaramir77 will become famous soon enough
March 4th, 2013, 08:21 PM

You'd be amazed at what happens after you tear-out the electric-box in you house.





Remain In Light.
   
Reply With Quote
  (#32) Old
faramir77 faramir77 is offline
Old Timer
 faramir77's Avatar

 


Reputation:
faramir77 will become famous soon enoughfaramir77 will become famous soon enoughfaramir77 will become famous soon enoughfaramir77 will become famous soon enoughfaramir77 will become famous soon enough
March 4th, 2013, 08:26 PM

Yea, truly.

Take a chain-saw and a gallon of gas, _Like a spell wovven,

cut the power. _and behold ppl go retarded -for lack of a better word)





Remain In Light.
   
Reply With Quote
  (#33) Old
Nang Nang is offline
TOL Subscriber
 Nang's Avatar

 



Reputation:
Nang is well respected by his peers
Nang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peersNang is well respected by his peers
March 4th, 2013, 08:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
She is not.
Raspberries . . .





"The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

"Experience teaches us nothing; revelation teaches all we need to know."

“ Those who proclaim that the sovereignty of God determines what justice is, (do so) by observing what God actually does. Whatever God does is just.”


. . . Gordon H. Clark
   
Reply With Quote
  (#34) Old
glorydaz glorydaz is offline
Gold level Subscriber
 glorydaz's Avatar

 



Reputation:
glorydaz is well respected by his peersglorydaz is well respected by his peersglorydaz is well respected by his peers
glorydaz is well respected by his peersglorydaz is well respected by his peersglorydaz is well respected by his peersglorydaz is well respected by his peersglorydaz is well respected by his peersglorydaz is well respected by his peersglorydaz is well respected by his peersglorydaz is well respected by his peersglorydaz is well respected by his peersglorydaz is well respected by his peersglorydaz is well respected by his peersglorydaz is well respected by his peersglorydaz is well respected by his peersglorydaz is well respected by his peersglorydaz is well respected by his peers
March 4th, 2013, 08:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
People misunderstand Paul about no works to their destruction. Paul is speaking about the works the Jews used to have to do to be saved. The works we no longer have to do are these:

The Burnt Offering; The Grain Offering; The Fellowship Offering; The Sin Offering; The Guilt Offering; Dietary Laws; Purification After Childbirth; Cleansing From Infectious Skin Diseases; Cleansing From Mildew; Discharges Causing Uncleanness; The Day of Atonement; Rules for Priests; The Sabbath; Firstfruits; The Passover and Unleavened Bread; Feast of Weeks; Feast of Trumpets; Feast of Tabernacles; Oil and Bread Set Before The LORD; the Sabbath Year; The Year of Jubilee; Circumcision.




The only time the Bible says “faith alone” it is to tell us what kind of faith NOT to have.


James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.



No, you're mistaken. Paul is talking about all the works of all men...even the Gentiles. If you read him, you will see...also Rom. 4:5

Romans 2:14-16
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; ) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


James and Paul speak from different perspectives, but are not in disagreement. Paul speaks of what justifies us before God, and James talks about what justifies us before man. Man looks at the outside, while God sees our heart.



   
Reply With Quote
  (#35) Old
God's Truth God's Truth is offline
TOL Legend
 God's Truth's Avatar

 


Reputation:
God's Truth has been getting noticedGod's Truth has been getting noticedGod's Truth has been getting noticedGod's Truth has been getting noticedGod's Truth has been getting noticedGod's Truth has been getting noticed
March 4th, 2013, 09:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
No, you're mistaken.
You are the one who is mistaken.
Quote:
Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
Paul is talking about all the works of all men...even the Gentiles. If you read him, you will see...also Rom. 4:5
Paul is explaining that ungodly Gentiles could be saved by not doing any works that the Jews once HAD to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post

James and Paul speak from different perspectives, but are not in disagreement.
NO. James and Paul do NOT speak from different perspectives! People misunderstand Paul to their destruction. Dead faith is NOT the saving kind of faith that you keep preaching. Faith alone is only mentioned to tell us what kind of faith NOT to have. Faith without right action saves NO ONE.

These are the works we do not have to do anymore.

Read and study all the things the Jews had to do just to worship God: The Burnt Offering; The Grain Offering; The Fellowship Offering; The Sin Offering; The Guilt Offering; Dietary Laws; Purification After Childbirth; Cleansing From Infectious Skin Diseases; Cleansing From Mildew; Discharges Causing Uncleanness; The Day of Atonement; Rules for Priests; The Sabbath; Firstfruits; The Passover and Unleavened Bread; Feast of Weeks; Feast of Trumpets; Feast of Tabernacles; Oil and Bread Set Before The LORD; the Sabbath Year; The Year of Jubilee; Circumcision.





Oh how I love the Word of God!
Do not just read the word do it.
   
Reply With Quote
  (#36) Old
The Barbarian The Barbarian is offline
TOL Legend
 The Barbarian's Avatar

 


Reputation:
The Barbarian is well respected by his peers
The Barbarian is well respected by his peersThe Barbarian is well respected by his peersThe Barbarian is well respected by his peersThe Barbarian is well respected by his peersThe Barbarian is well respected by his peersThe Barbarian is well respected by his peersThe Barbarian is well respected by his peersThe Barbarian is well respected by his peersThe Barbarian is well respected by his peersThe Barbarian is well respected by his peersThe Barbarian is well respected by his peersThe Barbarian is well respected by his peersThe Barbarian is well respected by his peers
March 5th, 2013, 06:07 AM

Quote:
No, you're mistaken. Paul is talking about all the works of all men...even the Gentiles. If you read him, you will see...
Romans 2:14-16
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; ) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


This merely says that Gentiles will be judged by natural law, which all men understand. This further undercuts your argument.





God bless us, every one.
"Or, the less the supportive data and the more declaration the greater the likelihood of horsefeathers." -TH

From the tetelestai dictionary:
Chicken Little - (n) someone who is winning an argument with a tetelestai.
   
Reply With Quote
  (#37) Old
bybee bybee is offline
TOL Subscriber
 bybee's Avatar

 




Reputation:
bybee is well respected by his peersbybee is well respected by his peersbybee is well respected by his peers
bybee is well respected by his peersbybee is well respected by his peersbybee is well respected by his peersbybee is well respected by his peersbybee is well respected by his peersbybee is well respected by his peersbybee is well respected by his peersbybee is well respected by his peersbybee is well respected by his peersbybee is well respected by his peersbybee is well respected by his peersbybee is well respected by his peersbybee is well respected by his peersbybee is well respected by his peers
Question March 5th, 2013, 06:42 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
Romans 2:14-16
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; ) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


This merely says that Gentiles will be judged by natural law, which all men understand. This further undercuts your argument.
I've also wondered if Paul might have meant that the Gentiles "having not the Law" were not properly equipped to understand and utilize the Law? Jewish men were indoctrinated into the Law almost at birth. It permeated every aspect of life for them.
On the one hand, Paul seems to say that Jews, having the Law, obey it's letter and not it's spirit. On the other hand, gentiles, coming new to the Law cannot grasp it's true intent.
It is through Jesus Christ that the Law is fulfilled and its true intent may be grasped.



   
Reply With Quote
  (#38) Old
God's Truth God's Truth is offline
TOL Legend
 God's Truth's Avatar

 


Reputation:
God's Truth has been getting noticedGod's Truth has been getting noticedGod's Truth has been getting noticedGod's Truth has been getting noticedGod's Truth has been getting noticedGod's Truth has been getting noticed
March 5th, 2013, 08:12 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bybee View Post
I've also wondered if Paul might have meant that the Gentiles "having not the Law" were not properly equipped to understand and utilize the Law? Jewish men were indoctrinated into the Law almost at birth. It permeated every aspect of life for them.
On the one hand, Paul seems to say that Jews, having the Law, obey it's letter and not it's spirit. On the other hand, gentiles, coming new to the Law cannot grasp it's true intent.
It is through Jesus Christ that the Law is fulfilled and its true intent may be grasped.

Sounds like you understand.

See, Paul is explaining about the "ungodly" Gentiles. The Jews who obeyed the ceremonial works were NOT considered ungodly, for they were called God's people, God's children. Paul is explaining that the Gentiles did not have to do any of the works to make themselves clean before God before He would save them.

This shows us more that the works we are not saved by is circumcision, the various external washings the Jews had to do, the various sin offerings the Jews had to give, the adherence to the dietary laws, and the observance of special days the Jews had to observe.

People misunderstand Paul about no works. It is always wrong to do evil, and it is always right to do what God says to do. James says faith without right action is dead faith. However, Calvinists, Lutherans, Baptists, etc, say faith alone.





Oh how I love the Word of God!
Do not just read the word do it.
   
Reply With Quote
  (#39) Old
False Prophet False Prophet is offline
TOL Subscriber
 False Prophet's Avatar

 


Reputation:
False Prophet has been getting noticedFalse Prophet has been getting noticedFalse Prophet has been getting noticedFalse Prophet has been getting noticedFalse Prophet has been getting noticedFalse Prophet has been getting noticed
March 5th, 2013, 08:24 AM

The just shall live by faith.



   
Reply With Quote
  (#40) Old
Nick M Nick M is offline
Carpet Bagger
 Nick M's Avatar

 



Reputation:
Nick M is well respected by his peersNick M is well respected by his peersNick M is well respected by his peers
Nick M is well respected by his peersNick M is well respected by his peersNick M is well respected by his peersNick M is well respected by his peersNick M is well respected by his peersNick M is well respected by his peersNick M is well respected by his peersNick M is well respected by his peersNick M is well respected by his peersNick M is well respected by his peersNick M is well respected by his peersNick M is well respected by his peersNick M is well respected by his peersNick M is well respected by his peers
March 5th, 2013, 08:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
James says faith alone CANNOT save a man. James says faith alone is DEAD faith. Calvinists, Baptists, and Lutherans say that dead faith is the most important faith ever; they say it is the saving kind of faith!
Yep, no argument here. How do you reconcile Paul's letters going directly against this?

Romans 4

4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,


Have you noticed Paul refers to Abraham before circumcision, and James refers to Abraham after circumcision? Do you understand that contract (covenant) God has with the circumcision?





Jesus saves completely.

Titus 1:10-11

For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

http://www.climatedepot.com/
   
Reply With Quote
  (#41) Old
God's Truth God's Truth is offline
TOL Legend
 God's Truth's Avatar

 


Reputation:
God's Truth has been getting noticedGod's Truth has been getting noticedGod's Truth has been getting noticedGod's Truth has been getting noticedGod's Truth has been getting noticedGod's Truth has been getting noticed
March 5th, 2013, 09:48 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
Yep, no argument here. this?
That is something I do not hear much but sure do like it when I do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
How do you reconcile Paul's letters going directly against
Romans 4

4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
I am so glad you brought this up, and at the perfect time.
Okay, please, give this explanation a chance consider it carefully…

Notice that Paul in Romans 4:4 speaks about works. Paul is speaking about the works Jews did to make themselves clean, like circumcision. I can prove this easily, because what kind of works does Paul immediately start talking about? He starts talking about---circumcision! You see, that is just five sentences down. In addition, please notice that Paul does NOT speak of works such as abstaining from sin and doing good---no, he speaks of circumcision. Paul never says that we are not saved by obeying Jesus but only by believing. James proves that that is nonsense when he explains faith alone is dead and can save no one. Peter also explains that people misunderstand Paul to their destruction!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
Have you noticed Paul refers to Abraham before circumcision, and James refers to Abraham after circumcision? Do you understand that contract (covenant) God has with the circumcision?
Again, please consider what I just said. James is speaking about Abraham obeying God, not about obeying God and by being circumcised. Please, consider, there is ALSO a time that Paul speaks of Abraham obeying before circumcision…obeying when God said to go to another country, he obeyed and went!

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.

Please note, that no time anywhere do any of the Apostles warn any Christian to be careful for obey Jesus’ teachings, for fear that they are feeling justified by what they do. Christians are ONLY warned about falling from grace by being circumcised and observing special days. Those WORKS are worthless now. However, they were once the works people had to do to stay a child of God.





Oh how I love the Word of God!
Do not just read the word do it.
   
Reply With Quote
  (#42) Old
Nick M Nick M is offline
Carpet Bagger
 Nick M's Avatar

 



Reputation:
Nick M is well respected by his peersNick M is well respected by his peersNick M is well respected by his peers
Nick M is well respected by his peersNick M is well respected by his peersNick M is well respected by his peersNick M is well respected by his peersNick M is well respected by his peersNick M is well respected by his peersNick M is well respected by his peersNick M is well respected by his peersNick M is well respected by his peersNick M is well respected by his peersNick M is well respected by his peersNick M is well respected by his peersNick M is well respected by his peersNick M is well respected by his peers
March 5th, 2013, 09:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
Notice that Paul in Romans 4:4 speaks about works. Paul is speaking about the works Jews did to make themselves clean, like circumcision.
More than that. Good works, period. This is what is in Galatians. They judged by good works. James said, was not Abraham justified when he offered up his son Issac and he asked it rhetorically. Of course he was. He did good works, and was obediant to God.

And circumcision is the key. That is the sign that you are bound to the law, all of it.

James goes on an on about good works. So does Paul, and he condemns it. He says you do not do this for justification. James says you do this for justification.

This isn't really debatable. Paul didn't write Hebrews.

2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Compare

James 2

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.


Continuing with Paul, who is the apostle for the gospel of uncircumcision....

Romans 5

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous
.

I was made righteous by another man's obediance. Namely, the Lord Jesus Christ, who was God in the flesh.

His salvation is a gift. I was made righteous by his obediance, not mine. And not by my works.

Ephesians 2

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.


If you continue to say Paul and James preach the same thing, I know I can count you with God's enemies who want to pervert the gospel. Paul says let those people go to hell.





Jesus saves completely.

Titus 1:10-11

For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

http://www.climatedepot.com/
   
Reply With Quote
  (#43) Old
God's Truth God's Truth is offline
TOL Legend
 God's Truth's Avatar

 


Reputation:
God's Truth has been getting noticedGod's Truth has been getting noticedGod's Truth has been getting noticedGod's Truth has been getting noticedGod's Truth has been getting noticedGod's Truth has been getting noticed
March 5th, 2013, 10:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
More than that. Good works, period. This is what is in Galatians. They judged by good works. James said, was not Abraham justified when he offered up his son Issac and he asked it rhetorically. Of course he was. He did good works, and was obediant to God.

And circumcision is the key. That is the sign that you are bound to the law, all of it.
Well, the Galatians fell from grace, because some Jews convinced them that they had to do the things the Jews had to do before Jesus came to earth. The Galatians were observing special days, the special days the Jews once had to do.

Paul had to form Christ in the Galatians all over again.

Galatians 4:19 My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you,





Oh how I love the Word of God!
Do not just read the word do it.
   
Reply With Quote
  (#44) Old
God's Truth God's Truth is offline
TOL Legend
 God's Truth's Avatar

 


Reputation:
God's Truth has been getting noticedGod's Truth has been getting noticedGod's Truth has been getting noticedGod's Truth has been getting noticedGod's Truth has been getting noticedGod's Truth has been getting noticed
March 5th, 2013, 10:34 AM

I just notice that you added some more to your original post. I would like to reply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
James goes on an on about good works. So does Paul, and he condemns it.
No. Paul only condemns the works like circumcision, the works the Jews had to do themselves just to make themselves clean. We are not made clean by circumcision anymore. Remember, the Gentiles were Unclean they were the Uncircumcised. The Gentiles were also Unclean because they did not obey the dietary laws that the Jews once had to do.

Paul NEVER rebukes people for obeying Jesus’ teachings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
He says you do not do this for justification. James says you do this for justification.
Again, Paul is speaking about circumcision, being made clean by the blood of bulls, and the observance of special days, etc. James corrects people who misunderstand Paul. James tells us that we have to do good we have to obey Jesus.

Look, we ARE justified by what we do too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick M View Post

This isn't really debatable. Paul didn't write Hebrews.

2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Compare

James 2

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Continuing with Paul, who is the apostle for the gospel of uncircumcision....

Romans 5

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
You have not proven that Paul did not write Hebrews. Timothy is mentioned, and we know Timothy was Paul’s helper. Not only that, the apostles do NOT nullify the others preaching in the Bible. When Peter acted out of line, we have in the Bible where Paul corrects Peter. We also have Peter and James in the Bible correcting believers from MISUNDERSTANDING what Paul says about no works. Never ever does it make sense to teach it is not right to obey Jesus’ teachings, or that there is some kind of warning to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
I was made righteous by another man's obediance. Namely, the Lord Jesus Christ, who was God in the flesh.
You did not have to be circumcised, or have the blood of goats, and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on you. You still have to obey Jesus’ teachings!


Hebrews 9:13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
If you continue to say Paul and James preach the same thing, I know I can count you with God's enemies who want to pervert the gospel. Paul says let those people go to hell.
With the measure you use it is measured to you. You blasphemy things you do not understand. You misunderstand Paul to your destruction.





Oh how I love the Word of God!
Do not just read the word do it.
   
Reply With Quote
  (#45) Old
john w john w is offline
Gold level Subscriber
 john w's Avatar

 



Reputation:
john w is well respected by his peersjohn w is well respected by his peers
john w is well respected by his peersjohn w is well respected by his peersjohn w is well respected by his peersjohn w is well respected by his peersjohn w is well respected by his peersjohn w is well respected by his peersjohn w is well respected by his peersjohn w is well respected by his peersjohn w is well respected by his peersjohn w is well respected by his peersjohn w is well respected by his peersjohn w is well respected by his peers
March 5th, 2013, 02:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nang View Post
So funny . . . to the point that I feel guilty about laughing with you. But I do, at times called drunken . . .

Relax, and have a smoke, like Rebekah did:

Genesis 24:64 KJV
And Rebekah lifted up her eyes, and when she saw Isaac, she lighted off the camel.





Saint John W
   
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Skin developed by: vBStyles.com
Copyright ©1997-2014 TheologyOnLine



Logos Bible Study Software Up to 15% OFF FOR THEOLOGYONLINE MEMBERS! Study twice, post once.
Logos Bible Software —take your Bible study to the next level.