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Reload this Page ECT: Triune God discussion part II
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March 5th, 2013, 11:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by StanJ53 View Post
Been there, done that. From what I read in the Companion Bible, Bullinger says nothing of this.
v16 doesn't contain the word God. V15 uses the term "living God".

I am writing these things to you, even though I am hoping to come to you quickly, 15 but if I wait, so that you may know how it is necessary for people to conduct themselves in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth. 16 And undeniably great is the mystery of godliness, who was revealed in flesh, was vindicated in spirit, appeared to angels; was preached among the nations, was believed in the world, was taken up in glory.(MOUNCE)

I suggest you read Vol 46 of the Word Biblical Commentary where Mounce outlines what this passage says on pages 212 - 232.


Bottom line is Jesus IS God.
Stan,

Good for you!

Quote:
v16 doesn't contain the word God.
that is correct.

Now, when you read Bullinger's note on this verse, you will see that it says, "... The probability is that the original reading was ho (which), with the Syriac and all the Latin versions to agree with musterion (neut.).... "

You can read the rest yourself.

Therefore,

I Timothy 3:16 should read:

" And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: which was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

It is the mystery of godliness which was manifest in the flesh...

That mystery of godliness it the great mystery of Ephesians 3:2-6 and Colossians 1:27 and other places

A mystery so big, so incredible, that God told no one, for if the princes of this world had known it, they never would have crucified the lord of glory!

I Corinthians 2:8

oatmeal





"And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

"For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" Psalm 6:5

I John 3:1-2. Prov 14:34 Psalm 133:1
   
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March 5th, 2013, 11:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by keypurr View Post
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

WHY DO FOLKS HAVE A PROBLEM UNDERSTANDING THIS VERSE?
II Corinthians 4:3-4





"And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

"For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" Psalm 6:5

I John 3:1-2. Prov 14:34 Psalm 133:1
   
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March 5th, 2013, 11:35 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
Hook it up with John 1:1, 14. Why do you have such a problem with it?
John 1:1,14 do not teach a trinity, nor do they teach that Jesus is God.

On the contrary, they teach that Jesus is the anointed one, the son of God

See John 20:31

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."





"And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

"For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" Psalm 6:5

I John 3:1-2. Prov 14:34 Psalm 133:1
   
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March 5th, 2013, 01:39 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by oatmeal View Post
II Corinthians 4:3-4
There is that "Christ is the image of God" again.

An IMAGE is at all times, in all forms, a creation.

That is why Christ could die and God can not.





Psalm 1[/COLOR] and Job 28:28

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

I love the God of my Lord Jesus Christ
   
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March 5th, 2013, 01:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by oatmeal View Post
John 1:1,14 do not teach a trinity, nor do they teach that Jesus is God.

On the contrary, they teach that Jesus is the anointed one, the son of God

See John 20:31

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."
They fail to understand that Christ is only a from of God, that is why they can not explain their trinity.





Psalm 1[/COLOR] and Job 28:28

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

I love the God of my Lord Jesus Christ
   
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March 5th, 2013, 02:14 PM

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Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
It appears you put more faith in the words of men than you do the Word of God. You still cannot say, as Thomas did, "My Lord and my God." Sadly, LA, that puts you in the camp of the antichrists.
My Lord Jesus, and my God Yahweh?





John 1:1-2
1 εν αρχη ην ο λογος At the beginning, it was a word; και ο λογος ην προς ο θεος and a word, it was unto a God; και θεος ην ο λογος and the God, it was.. A word 2 ουτος a-such... 2 ην εν αρχη προς ο θεος ... it was at the beginning unto a God.

"Yahweh" is a word, not just Christ!
   
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March 5th, 2013, 02:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gill White View Post
The bottom line is this, we are told to confess Jesus as the Son of God

John 20:31 KJV
(31) But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Yes and within the context of this scripture and the entire Gospel of John, this statement was to show the hypostatic nature of Jesus. The Messiah AND the Son of God. Anointed as both. You may want to study what the term "Son of God" meant to the Jews in that day. Obviously, based on all the examples in John of where the teachers and Pharisees lost it, to them it meant equating Himself to God.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gill White View Post
1 John 4:15 KJV
(15) Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Yes this also shows Jesus as being God because it is Jesus that becomes our Savior and dwells in us.
Maybe you should have read the entire chapeter here where John states in v3, This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.
John is saying what everyone at that time understood, Jesus Christ was God in the flesh. As John says, "has COME in the flesh". Clearly it is more than being a man BORN in the flesh. It means GOD.







But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect. 1 Peter 3:15 (NIV)
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 (NIV)
For this very reason, make every effort by your faith to produce virtue, by virtue knowledge, 6 by knowledge self-control, by self-control steadfastness, by steadfastness godliness, 7 by godliness brotherly affection, and by brotherly affection love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will make you effective and productive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:5-8 (NIV)
   
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March 5th, 2013, 03:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omniskeptical View Post
My Lord Jesus, and my God Yahweh?
Glorydaz is modelist otherwise known as oneness, masquerading as trinitarian so she does not receive the trinitarians disproval.

LA





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March 5th, 2013, 03:15 PM

1 John 4:1-3






1 John 4:1-3 (NIV)

(1) Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
(2) This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
(3) but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Many Christians use the above verses in an attempt to prove that one must believe that Jesus is God in order to be saved. We assert that this is not at all what the verses are saying. To understand them, it is most important that we read what is written, and not add our interpolation to the text. Then, to really understand why they were written the way they are, we must understand the cultural context in which they were written, as well as the overall context of 1 John itself.

Verse 2 says that “every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.” Why the emphasis on Jesus Christ having “come in the flesh”?

One of the false belief systems rivaling Christianity at the time 1 John was written was Gnosticism. The Gnostics believed that all matter is evil, and therefore they taught that Jesus Christ was not actually a human being of flesh and blood, but rather some kind of phantom or spirit being. Thus the Gnostics did not believe Jesus had come “in” the flesh.

By saying that Jesus had come “in” the flesh, the Bible is saying that Jesus was a flesh and blood human being. To not believe that Jesus was a human being is to be of the antichrist. In light of that, the assertion of some Christians that anyone who teaches that Jesus is not God is not saved and is of the antichrist is questionable indeed. Biblical Unitarians (such as those of us at Spirit & Truth Fellowship International) believe that Jesus is the Son of God, a man, and that he definitely came in the flesh.

Verse 2 is not saying that Jesus is God incarnate or God in human flesh. Rather, it is saying that those who acknowledge that Jesus Christ was born, grew up, carried out his ministry, and was a real human being, have the spirit of God within them. He came in the flesh indeed, just like every other flesh-and-blood human being.

The remainder of Chapter 4 contains the same fabulous truth found in the world’s most famous verse, John 3:16:


1 John 4:9-15 (NIV)
(9) This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.
(10) This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
(11) Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
(12) No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
(13) We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.
(14) And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
(15) If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.

A careful reading of verse 15 shows that it is not about whether or not Jesus is God, but about acknowledging him as the Son of God. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwells in him.

Chapter 5 begins by affirming this same truth:


1 John 5:1 (NIV)
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.

Let us read carefully as we closely examine the following verses:


1 John 5:5-8 (NIV)
(5) Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
(6) This is the one who came by water and blood [meaning that he was born]—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood.
(7) And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
(8) For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

Verse 5 says that Jesus is the Son of God. Verse 6 says that he was born of a woman like every other human being since Adam and Eve (“by water and blood”). Then he received the spirit of God upon him. If you are familiar with the KJV, you know that there is a discrepancy between it and the NIV in verses 7 and 8. See the discrepancy of 1 John 5:7-8.

So the point is that Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, was a true human being, a spotless lamb from out of the flock, and any teaching that claims he is anything other than fully human is against Christ, that is, against the truth of who he is.

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses/1-john-4-1-3

Some boxed verses did not copy.





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March 5th, 2013, 03:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
No, I'm saying you listen to satan when you deny Jesus Christ is God. Get as huffy as you please, it won't help you when you answer to Him.

Read the WHOLE WORD OF GOD or you will continue to be deceived by the father of lies. God says He is the only God and Saviour. You stake your life on one verse. That will be your undoing. You flat out IGNORE all the multitude of scripture you have been given....that will be your condemnation. You turn from it. You spit on it and get all huffy.

Throughout the Word we see LORD and God, or God and Saviour, or God and Redeemer. In the OT, you accept it as being one and the same God. In the NT, you reject it and claim Jesus is merely some "form of God." You reject Jesus as your Lord and God. You can't afford to miss that one. IT IS AN ESSENTIAL for salvation.

Isaiah 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Philippians 3:20
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Timothy 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

1 Timothy 2:3
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

1. Some Trinitarians believe that Christ must be God because they are both called “Savior.” There are many references to God the Father being called “Savior.” That makes perfect sense because He is the author of the plan of salvation and is also very active in our salvation. For example, God, the Father, is called “Savior” in Isaiah 43:11, 1 Timothy 1:1; 2:3; 4:10; Titus 1:3; 2:10; 3:4; Jude 25. Jesus Christ is called “Savior” because he is the agent who carried out God’s plan, and without whom it could not have come to pass.

2. The term “savior” is used of many people in the Bible. This is hard to see in the English versions because, when it is used of men, the translators almost always translated it as “deliverer.” This in and of itself shows that modern translators have a Trinitarian bias that was not in the original languages. The only reason to translate the same word as “Savior” when it applies to God or Christ, but as “deliverer” when it applies to men, is to make the term seem unique to God and Jesus when in fact it is not. This is a good example of how the actual meaning of Scripture can be obscured if the translators are not careful when they translate the text. God’s gracious provision of “saviors” is not recognized when the same word is translated “Savior” for God and Christ but “deliverer” for others. Also lost is the testimony in Scripture that God works through people to bring His power to bear. Of course, the fact that there are other “saviors” does not take away from Jesus Christ, who is the only one who could and did save us from our sins and eternal death.

If all the great men and women who were “saviors” were openly portrayed as such in the English versions, the grace and mercy God demonstrates in saving His people by “saviors” He has raised up would be openly displayed. Furthermore, we believe no reader would confuse the true God with the people He was working through. A good example that shows God raising up “saviors” to rescue Israel through history occurs in Nehemiah in a prayer of confession and thanksgiving to God. The Israelites prayed, “But when they [Israel] were oppressed they cried out to you. From heaven you heard them, and in your great compassion you gave them deliverers [saviors], who rescued them from the hand of their enemies” (Neh. 9:27). Some other examples of men designated as “savior” are in 2 Kings 13:5; Isaiah 19:20 Obadiah 21. It is incorrect to say that because Christ and God are both called “Savior,” they are one and the same, just as it would be incorrect to say that the “saviors” God raised up throughout history were the same individual as Jesus Christ.


http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses/luke-1-47





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March 5th, 2013, 03:42 PM

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Originally Posted by oatmeal View Post
Now, when you read Bullinger's note on this verse, you will see that it says, "... The probability is that the original reading was ho (which), with the Syriac and all the Latin versions to agree with musterion (neut.).... "
As I said there is nothing there, but if you actually provided the citation I may be able to find it somewhere.
As I provided to you, WORD BIBLICAL COMMENTARY Vol 46 by William D. Mounce, ISBN13: 9780849902451 ISBN10: 0849902452
and Edited by Bruce M. Metzger, states UNEQUIVOCALLY, on page 214, regarding ὅς /hos, "Ellicott (49-50) was able personally to examine Alexandrinus and confirm that it clearly read ὅς /hos (100).
If you want to see it yourself, go here: http://archive.org/details/GA_02
I doubt very much you will be able to read it. I'll trust what MOUNCE has to say.

Bullinger is NOT quoted or cited at all by modern Greek scholars today.
What Bullinger had available to him as resources in the 19 century, is far less than what is available today. For the very same reason, I DON'T read the KJV or ANY English translation earlier than the 20th century.







But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect. 1 Peter 3:15 (NIV)
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 (NIV)
For this very reason, make every effort by your faith to produce virtue, by virtue knowledge, 6 by knowledge self-control, by self-control steadfastness, by steadfastness godliness, 7 by godliness brotherly affection, and by brotherly affection love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will make you effective and productive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:5-8 (NIV)
   
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March 5th, 2013, 04:36 PM

Quote:
If you want to see it yourself, go here: http://archive.org/details/GA_02
WOW, a peice of crap transcribed by the hand the great forger Eusebius of Caseara, with over 5000 scribal errors. Face it, the word θεος is in there, and it means the God not Jesus like Eusebius wanted to believe was manifested in such a way.





John 1:1-2
1 εν αρχη ην ο λογος At the beginning, it was a word; και ο λογος ην προς ο θεος and a word, it was unto a God; και θεος ην ο λογος and the God, it was.. A word 2 ουτος a-such... 2 ην εν αρχη προς ο θεος ... it was at the beginning unto a God.

"Yahweh" is a word, not just Christ!
   
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March 5th, 2013, 05:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omniskeptical View Post
WOW, a peice of crap transcribed by the hand the great forger Eusebius of Caseara, with over 5000 scribal errors. Face it, the word θεος is in there, and it means the God not Jesus like Eusebius wanted to believe was manifested in such a way.

καὶ ὁμολογουμένως μέγα ἐστὶν τὸ τῆς εὐσεβείας μυστήριον: Ὃς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί, ἐδικαιώθη ἐν πνεύματι, ὤφθη ἀγγέλοις, ἐκηρύχθη ἐν ἔθνεσιν, ἐπιστεύθη ἐν κόσμῳ, ἀνελήμφθη ἐν δόξῃ.

Maybe you can backup your rant WITH facts?










But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect. 1 Peter 3:15 (NIV)
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 (NIV)
For this very reason, make every effort by your faith to produce virtue, by virtue knowledge, 6 by knowledge self-control, by self-control steadfastness, by steadfastness godliness, 7 by godliness brotherly affection, and by brotherly affection love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will make you effective and productive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:5-8 (NIV)
   
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March 5th, 2013, 05:15 PM

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Originally Posted by StanJ53 View Post
καὶ ὁμολογουμένως μέγα ἐστὶν τὸ τῆς εὐσεβείας μυστήριον: Ὃς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί, ἐδικαιώθη ἐν πνεύματι, ὤφθη ἀγγέλοις, ἐκηρύχθη ἐν ἔθνεσιν, ἐπιστεύθη ἐν κόσμῳ, ἀνελήμφθη ἐν δόξῃ.

Maybe you can backup your rant WITH facts?


Comparative Greek New Testament with Variants
1 Timothy 3:16 και ομολογουμενως μεγα εστιν το της ευσεβειας μυστηριον A ος TSB θεος εφανερωθη εν σαρκι εδικαιωθη εν πνευματι ωφθη αγγελοις εκηρυχθη εν εθνεσιν επιστευθη εν κοσμω A ανελημφθη TSB ανεληφθη εν δοξη

A= Alexandrian TSB=textus receptus, Schrivener TR, and "Byzantine" majority text.

Greek New Testament Patriarchal Edition 1904
1 Timothy 3:16 καὶ ὁμολογουμένως μέγα ἐστὶ τὸ τῆς εὐσεβείας μυστήριον· Θεὸς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί, ἐδικαιώθη ἐν Πνεύματι, ὤφθη ἀγγέλοις, ἐκηρύχθη ἐν ἔθνεσιν, ἐπιστεύθη ἐν κόσμῳ, ἀνελήμφθη ἐν δόξῃ.

Done.





John 1:1-2
1 εν αρχη ην ο λογος At the beginning, it was a word; και ο λογος ην προς ο θεος and a word, it was unto a God; και θεος ην ο λογος and the God, it was.. A word 2 ουτος a-such... 2 ην εν αρχη προς ο θεος ... it was at the beginning unto a God.

"Yahweh" is a word, not just Christ!
   
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March 5th, 2013, 05:23 PM

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Originally Posted by Omniskeptical View Post
Comparative Greek New Testament with Variants
1 Timothy 3:16 και ομολογουμενως μεγα εστιν το της ευσεβειας μυστηριον Aος TSB θεος εφανερωθη εν σαρκι εδικαιωθη εν πνευματι ωφθη αγγελοις εκηρυχθη εν εθνεσιν επιστευθη εν κοσμω Aανελημφθη TSB ανεληφθη εν δοξη

A= Alexandrian TSB=textus receptus, Schrivener TR, and "Byzantine" majority text.

Greek New Testament Patriarchal Edition 1904
1 Timothy 3:16 καὶ ὁμολογουμένως μέγα ἐστὶ τὸ τῆς εὐσεβείας μυστήριον· Θεὸς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί, ἐδικαιώθη ἐν Πνεύματι, ὤφθη ἀγγέλοις, ἐκηρύχθη ἐν ἔθνεσιν, ἐπιστεύθη ἐν κόσμῳ, ἀνελήμφθη ἐν δόξῃ.

Done.
In 1 Timothy 3:16 it has textual variant ὃς ἐφανερώθη (he was manifested) supported by Sinaiticus, Ephraemi, Boernerianus, 33, 365, 442, 2127, 599, against θεός ἐφανερώθη (God manifested) (Sinaiticuse, A˛, C˛, Dc, K, L, P, Ψ, 81, 104, 181, 326, 330, 436, 451, 614, 629, 630, 1241, 1739, 1877, 1881, 1962, 1984, 1985, 2492, 2495, Byz, Lect).[60][61]

DONE is right! Both codexes you refer to, show Ὃς









But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect. 1 Peter 3:15 (NIV)
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 (NIV)
For this very reason, make every effort by your faith to produce virtue, by virtue knowledge, 6 by knowledge self-control, by self-control steadfastness, by steadfastness godliness, 7 by godliness brotherly affection, and by brotherly affection love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will make you effective and productive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:5-8 (NIV)
   
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