[chrysostom]

the Lord's prayer says forgive those who trespass against you
not
those who ask for it
or
repent
and
that is what you must do
if
you want to be forgiven by God

[noguru]

I don't completely agree with the "Forgive and forget" saying. Because we do not have to forget in order to forgive.

The Bible does not say we have to forget. The Bible says we should forgive. Sometimes forgiving means we understand the other persons weaknesses and help them along the way because we are better at that particular thing. Other times it is a one time or an infrequent mistake on their part. However, if we forget or put aside our boundaries we often end up in a situation where a person mistakes kindness/mercy for weakness and continues with their transgressions. This later situation helps no one. We do not have to put aside our own boundaries or forget in order to forgive someone else. I am not talking about holding it over someone's head. And there is sometimes a fine line between remembering/reminding and holding it over someone's head. If we choose to pick up the slack, then we should be comfortable with ourselves for doing so. If we choose to not pick up the slack then there is also nothing wrong with reminding the person that we have forgiven them but have not forgotten nor chosen to cover for their own weakness(es).

At any rate when we do not forgive, the person or event ends up taking up space in our heads without paying rent. So it is actually more of a problem for ourselves than the person who committed the transgression.

[csuguy]

Originally Posted by Bradley D

"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots" (Luke 23:34).

Jesus Christ was not demanding repentance from His persecutors while on the cross.

As I pointed out above: sins commited in ignorance are a special case. People aren't to be held accountable for sins they do ignorantly. When they come to realize that what they've been doing is wrong, then they should repent - but before such knowledge they aren't held accountable.

That is why the Law was given - to hold the Jewish people accountable for their actions. That is also why the Law doesn't save, but only bring condemnation.

[csuguy]

Originally Posted by noguru

At any rate when we do not forgive, the person or event ends up taking up space in our heads without paying rent. So it is actually more of a problem for ourselves than the person who committed the transgression.

That depends. If one allows the wrong done to them to turn into hate then yes. But one can refuse to forgive someone till they repent without letting it turn into hate and without obsessing over it. It just requires a different mindset in dealing with it.

[noguru]

Originally Posted by csuguy

That depends. If one allows the wrong done to them to turn into hate then yes. But one can refuse to forgive someone till they repent without letting it turn into hate and without obsessing over it. It just requires a different mindset in dealing with it.

This brings us right back to the question in the OP; What is forgiveness?

I see it as coming to terms with the situation, basically by admitting that "There but for the grace of God, go I". If one does not come to terms with it then there are only two options:

1.) Sweeping the hurt under the rug. This denies the value of our own well being.

2.) Obsessing over it and wishing for poetic justice or worse seeking vengeance. This denies the well being of the other, and leads to a continuing cycle of harm and vengeance.

"Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord"

No where in the Bible does it say that vengeance is also ours. In the meetings we begin by saying the serenity prayer;

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change
The courage to change the things I can
And the wisdom to know the difference"

We cannot control others and make them seek forgiveness from us. In fact it is not from us they really need to seek forgiveness. It is from God that they need to seek forgiveness. They may not seek forgiveness according to our time frame. But I still pray that they do seek forgiveness at some point. And with that simple thought I have let go of it to God.


;

[Bradley D]

Forgivenness falls under the Great Commandment of Love God and Love Neighbor. It goes on to include love your enemies.

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect (Matthew 5:43-48).

[PureX]

Originally Posted by zippy2006

Someone causes you pain. You say, "I forgive you." What do you mean by it?

For example, does it mean:

1. "Don't worry about the pain you caused me, I'm at peace with it."
2. "I accept your apology."
3. "It's okay" (what is okay?)
4. "I take no offense at your action."
5. "I acquit you of your crime."
etc.

Also, does forgiveness require an apology? Does it require that you first take offense? What the heck is this word that we use so often and is such an integral part of the Gospel?

-zip

For me, it means I'm going to stop wallowing in blame and resentment by recognizing that we have all hurt ourselves and others, meaning to or not. So I'm moving on.

It does not mean that I trust you, or will give you an opportunity to hurt me, again. Nor does it mean that you will no longer be held accountable for your actions.

[Traditio]

Originally Posted by zippy2006

Someone causes you pain. You say, "I forgive you." What do you mean by it?

I tried to cheat and look it up in the Catechism. I couldn't find a definition, strictly speaking. I checked on dictionary.com, and in the definitions given, the main focus seemed to be on this notion of "pardon," on the cessation of resentment and on the canceling of debt.

We have examples of forgiveness in 1. the confessional* and 2. Christ's atoning sacrifice at calvary, as well as 3. in his various parables on the subject.

I'll try my hand at a fast and loose definition: to forgive is to restore the ties of goodwill/friendship which otherwise were severed because of wrongdoing; it is the restoration of the pardoned party from penalty and debt.

*Note that here the model of forgiveness culminates in the "te absolvo (I absolve thee)."

Also, does forgiveness require an apology?

I don't recall Christ ever asking for one in the gospels. This is especially true when he asks pardon for those who are crucifying him: "And Jesus said: Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. But they, dividing his garments, cast lots" (Luke 23:34).

But note, even if you forgive someone, that person can still take no benefit from it whatsoever. For example, take the prodigal son. Suppose that the prodigal son chose never to come back. The father could forgive him. He could spend the rest of his life on his front porch waiting for his son to come back, ready even until the end to embrace his son and restore him to his proper place in the household.

On his deathbed, the father could say, with his last breath, that he forgives his son, and instruct all of his servants, if his son should ever come back, to treat his son kindly.

But the son doesn't benefit from this, does he? He never comes back.

This is why conversion is so necessary in the Christian life. God loves us, and He is always waiting for us to turn to Him. He is at the door of our hearts, and He is always knocking. But if we never open the door...?

A good consideration on this matter is the story of Hosea.

Hosea - Come Back to Me

[kmoney]

Originally Posted by zippy2006

Someone causes you pain. You say, "I forgive you." What do you mean by it?

For example, does it mean:

1. "Don't worry about the pain you caused me, I'm at peace with it."
2. "I accept your apology."
3. "It's okay" (what is okay?)
4. "I take no offense at your action."
5. "I acquit you of your crime."
etc.

I generally use this parable.

Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Also, does forgiveness require an apology?

There are a couple different passages about this in scripture. I don't believe so, though.

Does it require that you first take offense?

I believe so. It seems to make sense. I suppose there could be a situation in which someone thinks they have wronged you and seek forgiveness but you never felt trespassed against in the first place. You might accept their apology and forgive them despite not really being offended in the first place.

What the heck is this word that we use so often and is such an integral part of the Gospel?

-zip

I haven't read through the thread yet but I hope this got some good discussion going.

[kmoney]

Originally Posted by zippy2006

Can you elaborate on "I have decided not to hold this against you"? Are you undermining culpability? Does justice demand something else? Is there some reason for your decision, insofar as it may be withheld in other circumstances or with another person? Is it ever right to not forgive?

I think that is an important string of questions. And it ties in with your question about forgiving without an apology.

Does God forgive without repentance? If we are called to forgive without an apology, does God not do the same?

And I think this may tie into my thread about mercy and justice. How are forgiveness and mercy related?

As I've said a few places on here, the view that God has mercy and forgives us but then punishes Jesus for our trespasses doesn't make sense to me. I think it is an odd view of mercy, forgiveness, and justice.

[zippy2006]

Originally Posted by kmoney

I generally use this parable.

Now that is interesting because that is precisely the reading which I disliked in a conversation with a priest. Consider:

Rita commits adultery with Sam. They have both sinned; Rita's husband finds out about it. Sam apologizes, but is not forgiven, the marriage is on the rocks, Sam feels terrible. Sam goes to Christ to receive forgiveness, as we see so often in the gospels. Sam is forgiven, Rita's marriage is getting even worse. How do you understand Christ's forgiveness of Sam with the refusal of forgiveness from Rita's husband and the terrible marriage situation?

There are a couple different passages about this in scripture. I don't believe so, though.

Okay.

I believe so. It seems to make sense. I suppose there could be a situation in which someone thinks they have wronged you and seek forgiveness but you never felt trespassed against in the first place. You might accept their apology and forgive them despite not really being offended in the first place.

Originally Posted by kmoney

I think that is an important string of questions. And it ties in with your question about forgiving without an apology.

Does God forgive without repentance? If we are called to forgive without an apology, does God not do the same?

That is what I was wondering as well. It seems to be a general inconsistency in some beliefs. I have not historically thought that you can forgive without an apology, but I am trying to reconsider it.

And I think this may tie into my thread about mercy and justice. How are forgiveness and mercy related?

Right.

As I've said a few places on here, the view that God has mercy and forgives us but then punishes Jesus for our trespasses doesn't make sense to me. I think it is an odd view of mercy, forgiveness, and justice.

Agreed.

[Son of Jack]

Originally Posted by zippy2006

Do you think their act still deserves punishment?

From me? No. It's not mine to give.

So what consequences do you not mitigate?

Well, the example I have in mind is something like a drug addict who has ruined his family's life through his choices. They can certainly forgive him, but they cannot change the results of his actions on his body.

Does the person do something to merit your forgiveness that another person might not do? Could you ever justly refuse forgiveness?

The reason I can and should forgive is because I have been forgiven. Moreover, it is a realization that I will, in the future, need others to forgive me. If I can't offer it to them, why should I expect them to offer it to me? Hence, Matthew 7:12.

Ought God forgive all without an apology? Without repentance?

Forgive my dslyexia Luke 23:34

I think you've answered your own question. It isn't really a matter of whether God ought to do anything. It is a matter of whether God has. Now, about repentance, that's about receiving forgiveness, not giving it.

Okay.

[kmoney]

Originally Posted by zippy2006

Now that is interesting because that is precisely the reading which I disliked in a conversation with a priest. Consider:

Rita commits adultery with Sam. They have both sinned; Rita's husband finds out about it. Sam apologizes, but is not forgiven, the marriage is on the rocks, Sam feels terrible. Sam goes to Christ to receive forgiveness, as we see so often in the gospels. Sam is forgiven, Rita's marriage is getting even worse. How do you understand Christ's forgiveness of Sam with the refusal of forgiveness from Rita's husband and the terrible marriage situation?

I think I'm missing your point and how those two things are or might be connected.

That is what I was wondering as well. It seems to be a general inconsistency in some beliefs. I have not historically thought that you can forgive without an apology, but I am trying to reconsider it.

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Is there forgiveness in that?

Agreed.

Really? Because I thought you were on the other side.

[zippy2006]

Originally Posted by kmoney

I think I'm missing your point and how those two things are or might be connected.

The story you quoted had to do with debts. How does God forgive us debts we owe to others? We sin against God, but also against fellow creatures.

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Is there forgiveness in that?

I don't think Paul had universalism in mind. Does that answer your question?

Really? Because I thought you were on the other side.

Nope, I've never disagreed with you there. We disagree when I bring up things like Isaiah 53 and note that, in some way, Christ's death pays for our sins and puts us in right relationship with God. From what I understand, you'd prefer chapter 53 didn't exist.

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Originally Posted by zippy2006

Someone causes you pain. You say, "I forgive you." What do you mean by it?

Forgiveness is dismissing a debt. In the New Testament, the Greek noun aphesis denotes a "dismissal" or "release." When you grant forgiveness, you dismiss the debt owed to you. When you receive forgiveness, your debt is dismissed. When you grant forgiveness, you dismiss the debt from your thoughts. Forgiveness is dismissing your demand that others owe you something, especially when they fail to meet your expectations... fail to keep a promise... fail to treat you justly.

Examine yourself to determine if you have genuinely forgiven. After someone has offended you, you can test the "quality" of your forgiveness by asking yourself the following questions:

• "Do I still expect my offender 'to pay' for the wrong done to me?"

• "Do I still have bitter feelings toward my offender?"

• "Do I still have vengeful thoughts toward my offender?"

AMR