[Delmar]

Originally Posted by g_n_o_s_i_s

Don't get me wrong, the history of this gun with regards to Lewis and Clark is fascinating and significant. But the failure of the gun as mainstream gun was its long reload time and its proneness to failure.

I hadn't heard about it being prone to failure, but I certainly agree that the gun could never have been practcal for anybody who didn't have "troops" to pump it for them!

[fool]

Originally Posted by Delmar

I hadn't heard about it being prone to failure, but I certainly agree that the gun could never have been practcal for anybody who didn't have "troops" to pump it for them!

40 shots in between having to pump it 2000 times?
I'd take that all day!
That thing is a machine gun for that time period.
I had no idea, I remember reading about the air rifle but didn't know the specs were that fantastic.

So everybody else is like;
BANG......grab powder horn.....open......pour.....seat patch and ball.......ram..........prime pan.......BANG........

And if you got that air rifle you're like;
BANG click BANG click BANG click BANG click BANG click BANG click BANG click BANG click BANG click BANG click BANG click BANG click BANG click BANG click BANG click BANG click BANG click BANG click BANG click BANG click.......drop 20 more balls in the tubular mag.....BANG click BANG click BANG click BANG click BANG click BANG click BANG click BANG click BANG click BANG click BANG click BANG click BANG click BANG click BANG click BANG click BANG click BANG click BANG click BANG click.

Pumping that rifle up would be my favorite hobby.

[fool]

Originally Posted by Delmar

I hadn't heard about it being prone to failure, but I certainly agree that the gun could never have been practcal for anybody who didn't have "troops" to pump it for them!

800 psi !
I didn't know they could contain such pressures back then.
Are there any videos of this thing in action?

[Delmar]

Originally Posted by fool

800 psi !
I didn't know they could contain such pressures back then.
Are there any videos of this thing in action?

Found one
I didn't realize until I watched this one that they took the stock/ air tank off the gun to pump it up.

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[Delmar]

Originally Posted by Delmar

I didn't realize until I watched this one that they took the stock/ air tank off the gun to pump it up.

Now I am wondering if they carried a spare tank? Seems like that would put it very quickly into the practical category.

edit: Wiki says yes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girandoni_Air_Rifle

Contemporary regulations of 1788 required that each rifleman, in addition to the rifle itself, be equipped with three compressed air reservoirs (two spare and one attached to the rifle), cleaning stick, hand pump, lead ladle, and 100 lead balls, 1 in the chamber, 21 in the magazine built into the rifle and the remaining 80 in four tin tubes.

[g_n_o_s_i_s]

Here is a quote from the travel diary of Thomas Rodney, a visitor of Lewis and Clark as they traveled down the Ohio river in 1803, that witnesses some of the problems of the gun.

"Visited Captain Lewess barge. He shewed us his air gun which fired 22 times at one charge. He shewed us the mode of charging her and then loaded with 12 balls which he intended to fire one at a time; but she by some means lost the whole charge of air at the first fire. He charged her again and then she fired twice. He then found the cause and in some measure prevented the airs escaping, and then she fired seven times; but when in perfect order she fires 22 times in a minute. All the balls are put at once into a short side barrel and are then droped into the chamber of the gun one at a time by moving a spring; and when the triger is pulled just so much air escapes out of the air bag which forms the britch of the gun as serves for one ball. It is a curious peice of workmanship not easily discribed and therefore I omit attempting it.”

So the first two attempts they had 3000 pump strokes and managed to fire three bullets. 4500 pump strokes and they managed to fire ten bullets. Assuming it took 1500 strokes to charge it.

[Delmar]

Originally Posted by g_n_o_s_i_s

Here is a quote from the travel diary of Thomas Rodney, a visitor of Lewis and Clark as they traveled down the Ohio river in 1803, that witnesses some of the problems of the gun.

"Visited Captain Lewess barge. He shewed us his air gun which fired 22 times at one charge. He shewed us the mode of charging her and then loaded with 12 balls which he intended to fire one at a time; but she by some means lost the whole charge of air at the first fire. He charged her again and then she fired twice. He then found the cause and in some measure prevented the airs escaping, and then she fired seven times; but when in perfect order she fires 22 times in a minute. All the balls are put at once into a short side barrel and are then droped into the chamber of the gun one at a time by moving a spring; and when the triger is pulled just so much air escapes out of the air bag which forms the britch of the gun as serves for one ball. It is a curious peice of workmanship not easily discribed and therefore I omit attempting it.”

So the first two attempts they had 3000 pump strokes and managed to fire three bullets. 4500 pump strokes and they managed to fire ten bullets. Assuming it took 1500 strokes to charge it.

Lewis was certainly having trouble with the gun that day. I wonder how frequent that kind of troubles were. If the demonstrations normally went that way it would not have been a very effective way of bluffing his way through the west. It could be that the seals for the "air flask" wore out quickly. The fact that the gun didn't stay in production all that long would indicate that there were fatal problems of some sort.

[fool]

Originally Posted by Delmar

Lewis was certainly having trouble with the gun that day. I wonder how frequent that kind of troubles were. If the demonstrations normally went that way it would not have been a very effective way of bluffing his way through the west. It could be that the seals for the "air flask" wore out quickly. The fact that the gun didn't stay in production all that long would indicate that there were fatal problems of some sort.

The Austrians used it for 35 years so it couldn't have been that terrible.
The article says that they ditched it because the air flasks were so hard to make and were always in short supply. No wonder with what they were trying to accomplish, 800 psi that cost you 2000 pumps, if that thing had a microscopic leak that let your air bleed out overnite I would chuck it in the woods too.

But seeing a demonstration of some one rip off even five rounds with that thing understanding the limitations of powder actuated guns of the time I'd still be impressed.

[g_n_o_s_i_s]

Originally Posted by Delmar

Lewis was certainly having trouble with the gun that day. I wonder how frequent that kind of troubles were. If the demonstrations normally went that way it would not have been a very effective way of bluffing his way through the west. It could be that the seals for the "air flask" wore out quickly. The fact that the gun didn't stay in production all that long would indicate that there were fatal problems of some sort.

You have to remember the Indians was just as impressed by its silent operation as its rapid fire. As fool stated, five rapid and silent shot would likely be equally impressive to Indians who only knew of "Bang" and "Smoke", as 22 rapid shots.

[g_n_o_s_i_s]

Originally Posted by fool

The Austrians used it for 35 years so it couldn't have been that terrible.
The article says that they ditched it because the air flasks were so hard to make and were always in short supply. No wonder with what they were trying to accomplish, 800 psi that cost you 2000 pumps, if that thing had a microscopic leak that let your air bleed out overnite I would chuck it in the woods too.

But seeing a demonstration of some one rip off even five rounds with that thing understanding the limitations of powder actuated guns of the time I'd still be impressed.

Here is some information that answers/corrects some of your statements above from a very detailed article on the gun. If you are interested in the Girandoni, read the full article.

Originally Posted by http://www.beemans.net/images/Austrian%20airguns.htm

Emperor Joseph personally was involved in the most detailed matters of the Austrian military airgun project and their use in combat. He realized early that the air guns must be “deployed correctly and maintained at the best standard. It is necessary that the simple soldier, whose intelligence is generally quite limited, is given this training immediately upon receiving the gun – and that the training is delivered in individual parts and not too much at once.” It was determined that two corporals would have to be especially trained to train and supervise the rank soldiers in the use of the Girandoni airguns. Thus every 20 air-riflemen would be supported by these two special corporals plus a specially trained officer. In addition, there would be a specially trained journeyman gunsmith for each 100 airguns and a supply of replacement seals, air reservoirs, mainsprings, etc.. . Even with this intense support, there was considerable malfunctioning and poor maintenance of the airguns. Emperor Joseph was soon complaining that “we appear to have a miserable bunch of riflemen, none of who is suitable for service with the air rifles.” By end of November 1788 the Emperor seems to have ordered that the air rifles be taken away from the troops. The General Artillery Director, the Duke of Colloredo himself, reported on July 21, 1789: “Due to their construction, these guns were much more difficult to use effectively than normal, as one had to handle them much more cautiously and carefully. In addition, the soldiers using them had to be supervised extremely carefully, as they were unsure about the operation. The guns become inoperable after a very short time – so much so that after awhile no more than one third of them were still is in a usable state. We needed the whole winter to repair and replace them.” After this it was deemed wise to take back the airguns and issue them only to select, specially trained Tyrolean sharpshooter units. The last order given by the Emperor prior to his death was “to select the most promising and skilful soldiers to use these guns.” Because of extensive service work, and most importantly, the lack of Emperor Joseph’s interest and involvement, the airguns still had not been issued on December 16, 1792. However, the Tyrol Sharp Shooter Corps indicated “that these weapons were really accurate and effective” in the Turkish War and in 1790 against Prussia. (Contrary to many accounts, they never saw service against any of Napoleon's troops.) The air rifles were later supplied only with the wheeled and short hand pumps behind the lines – the idea being that captured airguns would not be very useful without the pumps!

Thus, the Girandoni air rifle in combat required persons highly trained in its use and supported by wheeled air pumps and wagons of pre-charged air bottles. These air guns easily were put of service and needed constant and expert tending. A Girandoni air rifle was predestined to give inexperienced users trouble and charging with individual hand pumps was punishing to the user. The dependability of the gun for lethal combat, under field conditions, especially without the backup of dozens of other airguns, was not high.

[Delmar]

The Remington 1858 revolving carbine
As far as I can tell this is one of the earliest American attempts at a commercially available repeating rifle. Problem is cap and ball guns had the potential to chain fire, so you couldn't, if you value your hands, support the barrel with your hand forward of the cylinder. Also the lever action rifle came along very quickly after this gun was introduced so it was almost immediately obsolete.

Still that puppy would look fantastic hanging on my wall!

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