[Hobie]

Originally Posted by chrysostom

so what does that mean?
if
not the death of the soul when it ceases to exist

Lets look at the sequence and how sin is cleansed.
When Christ takes the saints at the Second Coming, the judgement of the wicked including Satan and his evil angels is verified.

God's dealing with the rejectors of His truth and of evil angels will be scrutinized (Hebrews 10:26,27; 2 Peter 2:4,9; Jude 6). The saints will judge the world.

Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? 1 Corinthians 6:2,3 NKJV

After the thousand years and the verification of judgment in heaven, the final events in the great controversy between good and evil will take place. These events are described in Revelation chapters 20-22. As the book of Revelation is written in chiastic structure, with the heart of the chiasm (events dealing with the final events before the return of Christ) in the middle of the book, the events described in these chapters appear to be described in reverse sequence. (eg. the wicked surround the New Jerusalem in Revelation 20:9, but the city only comes down from heaven in Revelation 21:2). If the chiastic structure is taken into account, then the sequence of events can be readily discerned.

After the thousand years, Christ returns to the earth to execute final judgment on the rejecters of His truth, and to take back that which is rightfully His. It is then that the kingdom will be restored to the saints.
The New Jerusalem then descends from heaven...
And I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:2
From the safety of the city, the redeemed will then witness the final events which will end the great controversy between Christ and Satan. Satan will have had a thousand years to reflect upon the consequences of his actions and the sentence that awaits him.

Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. Revelation 20:7,8 NKJV

Satan had been bound when the wicked were slain at the first coming of Christ. The wicked that died would not come to life until a thousand years had expired.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished... Revelation 20:5

The resurrection of the wicked of all ages looses the chains of circumstances which had bound Satan, and he spurns the resurrected millions on to take the Holy City in one final effort to retain power.
...and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. Revelation 20:8 NKJV

In Ezekial 38:2 and 39:6, Gog, the king of Magog is described as an enemy of God's people. He is described as the leader of the host that would attack restored Israel. (Ezekial 38:2, 14, 16-19) but he would meet his end. This would happen "after many days" (Ezekial 38:8)
God permits this final act of rebellion by Satan and his hosts together with the resurrected wicked to dispel any lingering doubt as to the antipathy of those arraigned against God and His people. Good and evil stand opposite each other. The saints within the city, the wicked without.
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:11-15 NKJV

The fire that destroys the wicked also cleanses the earth.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat; the earth also and the works that are in it shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness. 2 Peter 3:10-13
God restores the earth to its original beauty - the earth is made new.
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away. And there was no more sea. Revelation 21:1...


The wicked will experience the second death after they are raise when the 1000 years have passed. They will be killed by the judgement of God, in the lake of fire with the second death which is final. Those who are raised in the first resurrection of the righteous, and taken to heaven, the second death has no power!

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. Revelation 2:11.

The second death is only for the wicked. Those who overcometh will not be suffer it, only the wicked. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:13-15

Notice that the second death is connected with the wicked being put in the lake of fire which is final when they die the second death.

"He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Revelation 21:7-8

Now Jesus Christ clearly spoke of two resurrections when He said, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in their graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29). So the wicked are resurrected to join Satan and his evil angels in the lake of fire and be destroyed forever.

Here we see a good description of the destruction coming upon Satan:
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

and what will happen to the wicked when they perish:

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Ps 37:20 20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Ps 68:1 Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.
2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God. 3 But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.

Ps 73:27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.

Isa 41:11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish. 12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.

Now Christ is clear that his saints will not suffer from this second death but it also makes clear who it is that will perish:
John 3:14-18 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1 Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

II Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Pet 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Pet 3: 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Now here is where you have to decide, do the wicked perish in the fire or keep burning in a eternal fire. Look into the definitions from the Greek-English Lexicon.

ETERNAL-aionios-- lasting for an age. ( Age- as a period of individual existence. 1. That part of the duration of a being or a thing which is between its beginning and any given time. ), perpetual, eternal, holding an office or title for life,perpetual.

and

EVER, as in forever-aion--period of existence, I. lifetime, life____ II. long space of time, an age, perpetual, all ones life long, for ever,_____ eternity, 2. space of time clearly defined and marked out, epoch,____this present world.

Though the words eternal and ever can mean eternity as we understand the word in the English language, as is obvious from the above definitions this is not the definite meaning of the word at all times. Thus the context of what is being said using these words must be examined. Not only regarding the individual incident in which it is stated, but in relation to the rest of the scriptures concerning the same subject.

We have an abundance of scripture that testify to the fact that the wicked perish, and that the soul of the sinner can and will die. This being the case, obviously when the words eternity, or forever, are stated in relation to the punishment and judgment of the wicked, the verse is either referring to the effects of eternal fire, or the meaning to be applied to the word is not eternity. The following scripture more or less finalizes the issue.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gomorrha, are set forth as examples of the effects of eternal fire. They are no more. Nor will they ever be again.

So when the wicked perish they are no more.

[Hobie]

Here is another good explanation on this issue that I found in my notes:

"...THE only knowledge we have about the condition of death that God reveals in His word, the Holy Bible. No one has come back from the grave to tell us his impressions of the after-death state. Lazarus was raised from the dead by our Lord, but nothing is recorded regarding a visit to heaven or any other place during the four days he was dead. The Lord alone can tell us what the state of the departed is, and we should accept His teachings. All other speculation is a waste of time.

We have a few examples of persons who were dead and were raised to life again. Moses died and was buried, but the Lord raised him and took him to heaven. Deuteronomy 34:5,6, Jude 9; Matthew 7:1-3. Elijah was translated without seeing death (2Kings 2:10) and so was Enoch (Genesis 5:24). There was also a multitude that rose from the dead when Jesus came back to life. "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the Holy City, and appeared unto many." Matthew 27:52,53. They went to heaven when Jesus ascended.
Ephesians 4:8....

It was such an unusual occurrence for those persons to go to heaven that Holy Writ recorded it. However, this does not prove that all go to heaven when they die or are raised from the dead before the generalresurrection. We quote: "David is not ascended into the heavens." Acts 2:34. If he did not go to heaven, where did he go? Did he go to hell-fire? No! The Bible states that he went to the grave, and his sepulcher was still intact at the time of the apostles. "Let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day." Verse 29. David was dead, not alive; and he went to the grave.

Jesus makes it plain that people do not go to heaven immediately when they die, but go there after the resurrection. Jesus said: "I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself. That where I am, there you may be also." John 14:2,3. Jesus has not come yet, so the righteous are not yet in heaven. They will go there when Jesus comes to take them. We know that the Lord has not yet come, for "every eye shall see Him" when He comes. Revelation 1:7. This has not yet taken place. All the dead will rest in their graves until that day. If those who have died are now rejoicing in heaven, how could Jesus say that He will receive them when He comes?

When Jesus comes back to this earth He will come visibly. If "every eye shall see him," He surely will be seen. "And when He [jesus] had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, You men of Galilee, why stand you gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as you have seen Him go into heaven." Acts 1:9-11. When Jesus comes He comes visibly, and He will receive the righteous.

Daniel rests in the grave "till the end be;" and that time has obviously not come. Daniel 12:13. So he is not in heaven. If the righteous do not go to heaven at death, but after they are raised from the dead, where do the wicked go when they die? "The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." 2 Peter 2: 9. The wicked are "reserved unto judgment." Verse 4. That is, they will be judged first, then they will be punished. You would not punish first, and then judge; and neither would God. You do not send a man to jail for ten years and then take him out to see what sentence he deserves.

The Bible states clearly that the wicked are reserved "unto the day of judgment to be punished." If the unjust are reserved to be judged, first, it is evident that they are not in hell before the judgment takes place. The judgment takes place after we die. Hebrews 9:27. The Lord has appointed a day when He will judge the world. Acts 17:30, 2 Corinthians 5: 10; Ecclesiastes 12:14. The judgment was still future in the time of Christ. Matthew 12:4 1; 11:22. It was still future in the time of Paul. Acts 24:25; Romans 2:16. If the judgment was yet future at that time, then all the people that had died before were not yet judged. How then could they be in hell or heaven? Even the evil angels are reserved to be judged before their final punishment. 2 Peter 2:4.... This punishment comes after the resurrection. Revelation 20:4-9. The righteous go to heaven after the resurrection. 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17. The judgment is not completed until the verdict of God is pronounced: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still. And he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." Revelation 22:11.

Jesus speaks about the separation of the wicked from the righteous "as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats: and He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom.... Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." Matthew 25:32-41.

When God has given the verdict, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still," there is no case where this decision is revoked. His judgment is final. God cannot say that a person is guilty and not guilty at the same time. No one is half-saved or half-condemned. If this could be so, then God would not be certain of His decisions. He would have to alter cases. This would make God an unreliable judge. "Let God be true, but every man a liar." Romans 3:4

God knows whether a man is guilty or not guilty. He knows whether a person has been a great sinner or whether he barely missed heaven, and He judges accordingly. He gives everyone according to his works.... The righteous and the wicked go to the grave, and remain there until the resurrection. They do not go to a place called hell or to heaven immediately at death. "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:2,8,29.

The dead, both righteous and unrighteous, come forth from the graves and not from heaven or hell. They come from the place where they were while dead, which is the grave. While the dead are in their graves, do they have any consciousness or feeling; can they remember, see, hear, and talk?

...The Bible tells us plainly that the dead do not remember. In death there is no remembrance of Thee." Psalm 6:5. If there is no remembrance, then that quality of the mind does not exist. While we are alive we can remember, but after death we do not remember. "His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." Psalm 146:4.....If the thoughts perish when a person dies, he surely cannot think. There is no consciousness.

When we die, God takes the breath of life, also called the spirit, away from us, and then all consciousness ceases. It takes the spirit and the body to produce consciousness, and when the two are severed, all consciousness and feeling cease.

Many times we hear it said at funeral services that the deceased person is in heaven praising God, singing before the throne, and interceding for us before the Father; but what does the Bible teach? "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence [the grave]." Psalm 115:17 ...... How could the dead praise the Lord after God has taken away the breath of life and the body is decomposed? How could they praise the Lord after death, when the Bible says, "The dead praise not the Lord?" This would be impossible, because their memory is taken away, they cannot think, and their thoughts have perished.

Death is compared with sleep. "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that you sorrow not, even as others which have no hope." 1 Thessalonians 4:13 ....Jesus spoke of Lazarus's death as a sleep. "Our friend Lazarus sleeps; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.... Howbeit Jesus spoke of his death." John 11:11-13. When a person is asleep, he is unconscious and knows not what happens around him. The dead are similarly unconscious......." excerpts from 'What Catholics and Protestants Should Know' by J. H. MEIER

Here are the verses where the Bible likens death to the unconccious state or sleep in the Bible. Twenty three are listed here but there are more:

1. Deuteronomy 31:16 - And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
2. 2 Samuel 7:12 - And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
3. 1 Kings 1:21 - Otherwise it shall come to pass, when my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers, that I and my son Solomon shall be counted offenders.
4. Job 7:21 - And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.
5. Job 14:12 - So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
6. Psalms 13:3 - Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;
7. Psalms 76:6 - At thy rebuke, O God of Jacob, both the chariot and horse are cast into a dead sleep.
8. Jeremiah 51:39 - In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD.
9. Jeremiah 51:57 - And I will make drunk her princes, and her wise men, her captains, and her rulers, and her mighty men: and they shall sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the King, whose name is the LORD of hosts.
10. Daniel 12:2 - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
11. Matthew 9:24 - He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.
12. Mark 5:39 - And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.
13. Luke 8:52 - And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
14. John 11:11 - These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
15. John 11:13 - Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
16. Acts 7:60 - And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
17. Acts 13:36 - For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
18. 1 Corinthians 15:51 - Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
19. Ephesians 5:14 - Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
20. 1 Thessalonians 4:13 - But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
21. 1 Thessalonians 4:14 - For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
22. 1 Thessalonians 4:15 - For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
23. 2 Peter 3:4 - And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Even Tyndale, one of the great reformers of Protestantism, understood this concept well as did the early protestant churches:
WIlliam Tyndale: And ye, in putting them [the departed souls] in heaven, hell, and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurrection.... And again, if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good case as the angels be. And then what cause is there of the resurrection?—William Tyndale, An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue (Parker's 1850 reprint), bk. 4, ch. 4, pp. 180, 181.

[Hobie]

Originally Posted by Lon

LOL! Sorry, I just can't believe you 20 guys or so, keep saying this. It makes me laugh because you seem to be serious. It is about the same thing as a Shaklee salesmen trying to get me away from a surgeon to purchase his miracle vitamins.
Even if you don't see the humor, you'll at least have to take the 'no' from me. I'm not trading for whatever you got, no matter how hard the sell.


And the Sadducees thought the same. That I disagree with you is more than apparent, and I did before I ever got that education, so there you are.

Well use your Bible instead of your opinion and see what it says