toldailytopic: Should Christians always forgive those who've done them wrong?
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Why imply that I claim Jesus did not teach forgiveness? I was pretty clear, I thought, in pointing out there is a specific way we're supposed to forgive. Are you being dishonest here?
To forgive means that; not only under certain conditions.
"The way" is to repent; not to resent others because they don't repent.
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So you argue against Luke by pointing to Matthew, because Matthew omits "repent". That's your argument.
What, was Luke incorrect? Lying? Do these two scriptures contradict one another, do you think?
Not an unheard-of situation in the Bible. What Matthew says is confirmed by other verses though. Luke says, "if he repents, forgive." It does not say, "if he doesn't repent, withhold your forgiveness."
If you compare the two verses, which were both posted in my previous post, you will see that they don't actually contradict at all; just slightly different words are used.
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Agreed. And if they repent, then you actually should. Don't play games.
Games? should instead of must?
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Why didn't the lord in the story forgive the man, as you say he should? This does not support your argument.
Yes it does, because if we don't forgive, we carry resentment. That means we have not received the Spirit, and we suffer for it. That is what the story means. If we want forgiveness for ourselves, we must give it to others "from your hearts." That's exactly what the story means.
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That's not the only use of the word "forgive" and you know it. Don't be dishonest.
That IS what it means, and it's what Jesus means, and Paul, by the word.
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God forgives those who repent. He doesn't forgive everyone. Why do you insist we should?
Again, this doesn't confront the simple concept that we should forgive as God forgives. As we're plainly commanded to do.
God carries no resentment in his heart. Neither should we. Not that this is easy for us. But that is the path Christ teaches. Repent means we receive the Spirit, and thus forgiveness. God does not withhold that Spirit from us. He forgives. We repent, and we receive the forgiveness. Turning to God, means we turn to Spirit, not to the resentments that we often allow to control us instead of Spirit. It is not to judge and resent others because THEY don't turn to the Spirit.
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Now, why doesn't God forgive unconditionally? Forgiving even those that do not repent? That should be the next question here, so we can understand why we should not.
That was the implication of the Romans verse, and the others; that he does forgive unconditionally, and has already done so.
Grace is unconditional love, and that means unconditional forgiveness. It does not mean we don't rebuke or correct, or even punish according to the law.
And I can agree that we may not be obligated to "forgive a debt." We may or may not forgive a debt, even if the other party repents, or does not. It makes no difference. "Forgive our debtors" means we carry no resentment against them. "Repentance" only refers to that. They may or may not still be obligated to pay their debts, to society and/or to us. As usual, if you take Jesus' parables too literally, you miss the message. They who have ears to hear, let them hear.
Keep the Spirit alive;
Eric the Green
Last edited by eameece; August 15th, 2012 at 03:59 PM.
-circumventing the justice of God
-assuming time will heal all wounds
-letting the offender off the hook
-reconciliation
-excusing unjust behaviors
-attempting to explain the hurt away
-based on notions of fairness
-some idea of weak martyrdom
-quashing your anger
-a natural act
-denying your hurt
-becoming a doormat
-conditional
-forgetting
-a feeling
-presuming of repentance by the offender
-enablement
Yes, God commands us to forgive. Forgiveness is an act of the will, it is not some emotion.
Slogan/motto:
Luke 9:23 Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me."
Reputation:
Heresy -
August 15th, 2012, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by heir
You are adding a requirement to the gospel of Christ~which is perverting the gospel when you say that someone has to repent of their sins to be saved.
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Galatians 1:8-9 KJV But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
And what is the Gospel?
Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
Luke 13:3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.
Mark 1:14-15 Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 3:19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,
Acts 26:20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.
1 John 1:8-9 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Luke 24:47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Mark 6:12 So they went out and preached that people should repent.
Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
Acts 20:20-21 how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you, and taught you publicly and from house to house, testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
"If a sheerly linguistic version of the gospel could be concocted, it would merely so be no longer the gospel. In the Lutheran Reformation’s understanding, which we believe in this matter to be correct, the sacraments make the inalienable externality of the gospel message and therefore are necessary to the authenticity of that message." (Christian Dogmatics [1984], II:302-303 as cited in Pontifications)
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever....
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
Luke 13:3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.
Mark 1:14-15 Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 3:19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,
Acts 26:20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.
1 John 1:8-9 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Luke 24:47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Mark 6:12 So they went out and preached that people should repent.
Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
Acts 20:20-21 how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you, and taught you publicly and from house to house, testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
Slogan/motto:
I know I'm saved because:
The FATHER gave HIS WORD; that The One that will Judge my works, is the same person that offered His Life, for the atonement of my sins.
Reputation:
August 15th, 2012, 08:36 PM
Dose forgiving someone who’s done me wrong; mean I have to trust them?
Forgive as we are forgiven.
Pray for thoes who sin against you.
God will judge them.
Psalm 1[/color] and Job 28:28
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
-circumventing the justice of God
-assuming time will heal all wounds
-letting the offender off the hook
-reconciliation
-excusing unjust behaviors
-attempting to explain the hurt away
-based on notions of fairness
-some idea of weak martyrdom
-quashing your anger
-a natural act
-denying your hurt
-becoming a doormat
-conditional
-forgetting
-a feeling
-presuming of repentance by the offender
-enablement
Yes, God commands us to forgive. Forgiveness is an act of the will, it is not some emotion.
AMR
"The Bible is very clear, Christians aren't supposed to be busybodies, nor are they supposed to strive with any man who hasn't harmed him (Or someone else, by implication.)" RandPaulfor2016, May 10, 2013
Stephen didn't say a thing about forgiveness; He plead with God not to charge them with sin, and if there is no charge then forgiveness is moot, as it is unnecessary.
And this is similar to what Jesus did when He plead with God to forgive those taking part in his execution. They were unaware they were in the wrong; they honestly believed they were doing the right and just thing because of the accusations against Jesus. Just as when a man is convicted of murder and executed we should not hold it against the executioner. In fact, there are many who should be forgiven in that instance, and others who should be held responsible.
Yes and no. For us, it is important to listen to Jesus' words "Father forgive them, they don't know what they are doing!" All who offend, do so in ignorance of God and in unresisted compliance with sin's wicked malady. To me, Jesus' prayer is as if there are nice masks on the bad and bad masks on the good: the people have been duped whether complaint with it or not. We believers hold that only what is eternal matters. We may have a hard time separating the dross from the Gold, but that's Jesus' job.
It is also true that we hold perpetrators accountable. I would take no pleasure in a murder's death or life-sentence, nothing like that could heal me/only Jesus can.
Rather, we, I believe, what must be done to keep a wrong from happening again, so I join my community as community member in doing what is believed right and necessary for the protection of all of us, happlily in whatever is the good of the community and sad that another soul has believed the Lie to his/her own destruction.
Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever. Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. - Let's at least work at it?
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