[genuineoriginal]

Originally Posted by Cruciform

Right back at you friend. Thanks for proving my point.

What point is that?

Originally Posted by Cruciform

See this, this, this, and this.

Let's see what defenses your first link has.
1. The Maccabees were Roman Catholics?
2. Adding words to Tertullian's writings to make it look like it is saying something else?
3. Use of candles at a funeral is the same as having an altar filled with candles?
4. Worshipping images of dead people is the same as worshipping God?

If the rest are like these, there is no point in continuing.

I don't see any attempt to even understand the charges, much less properly address whether the practices come from the teachings of Jesus to the Apostles.

[Cruciform]

Originally Posted by genuineoriginal

What point is that?

The one made in Post #110.

Let's see what defenses your first link has.
1. The Maccabees were Roman Catholics?
2. Adding words to Tertullian's writings to make it look like it is saying something else?
3. Use of candles at a funeral is the same as having an altar filled with candles?
4. Worshipping images of dead people is the same as worshipping God?

Hey, if you have nothing more than straw man arguments, non sequiturs, and flat-out falsehoods, just say so...

I don't see any attempt to even understand the charges, much less properly address whether the practices come from the teachings of Jesus to the Apostles.

Already answered.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

[Choleric]

Originally Posted by genuineoriginal

What point is that?

Let's see what defenses your first link has.
1. The Maccabees were Roman Catholics?
2. Adding words to Tertullian's writings to make it look like it is saying something else?
3. Use of candles at a funeral is the same as having an altar filled with candles?
4. Worshipping images of dead people is the same as worshipping God?

If the rest are like these, there is no point in continuing.

I don't see any attempt to even understand the charges, much less properly address whether the practices come from the teachings of Jesus to the Apostles.

Crucifox is woefully ignorant about most topics and has no defense for his heresy which is why he is constantly posting links. ANd then when you challenge the fact, he scampers away or changes the subject.

He post links as if they are substantive, then when addressed, he ignores the response because he has nothing to say and is incapable of addressing truth as he has no idea what truth is.

[genuineoriginal]

Originally Posted by Cruciform

Hey, if you have nothing more than straw man arguments, non sequiturs, and flat-out falsehoods, just say so...

I agree that the guy in your first link should have warned us that his defenses of Roman Catholic heresies consisted of nothing but straw man arguments, non sequiturs, and flat-out falsehoods.

Then you wouldn't have made as big of a fool out of yourself in relying on him.

[Cruciform]

Originally Posted by Choleric

Crucifox is woefully ignorant about most topics and has no defense for his heresy which is why he is constantly posting links. ANd then when you challenge the fact, he scampers away or changes the subject. He post links as if they are substantive, then when addressed, he ignores the response because he has nothing to say and is incapable of addressing truth as he has no idea what truth is.

If you have personal remarks and baseless gossip to share with another poster, it should be communicated in an IM, and not on this forum. In any case, your completely unsubstantiated assertions are noted. (Again.)



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

[Cruciform]

Originally Posted by genuineoriginal

I agree that the guy in your first link should have warned us that his defenses of Roman Catholic heresies consisted of nothing but straw man arguments, non sequiturs, and flat-out falsehoods.

Wow. When did they start allowing 4th-graders to post on this forum? (Next, we'll be treated to the "I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I?" retort.)



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

[kmoney]

Originally Posted by zippy2006

The Church is the Ark sent by God. Can a Protestant, with God's help, tread water for 6 months? Maybe they can. Personally, I'd chance the Tiber.

I think it is very important Protestants come into the Church. And this is an objective matter of Christ's Church and the sacraments, etc. I think it is significantly less imperative that the Orthodox convert, since they retain many of the graces that Christ has bestowed on us.

And I'm not trying to argue that. Of course you, as a Catholic, believe it would be beneficial for Protestants to convert to Catholicism. Just as Protestants would want you to convert the other way. What I am fighting against is questioning salvation based on the Catholic/Protestant divide.

On who's terms? You can't take the forgiveness and skip the means given.

As I've said to Trad, I deny that Protestants skip the means. We have the Lord's prayer and Jesus as our advocate. I don't see scripture require anything more. You and Trad disagree, clearly, and it seems we're at a roadblock.

I understand Trad's intent now. The thing is, I will not speak on the topic in front of Protestants. It is, to my mind, more of a private discussion between Catholics, and I think care should be taken when speaking on such a delicate subject to Protestants. Heck I think it can be a dangerous topic in privacy with Catholics. That may be unsatisfactory to you. If so, sorry.

Yes it is unsatisfactory. And the cynic in me says you want to have a private discussion because you basically agree with Trad that salvation for Protestants is impossible but you don't want to catch flak for it. But a calmer mind says that I've seen you be fair when it comes to salvation of others before so maybe you aren't just trying to hide your condemnation of Protestants.

But that's fine, you and your Catholic buddies can go to your secret clubhouse and talk about how many of us rebellious Protestants are going to hell. Awesome.

I think they do rebel in various ways, mainly through pride. For example:

Like my video shows, converts to Catholicism often constitute studied Protestants. Evidence for the Eucharist is staggering. Staggering. As soon as that evidence is presented to the Protestant and they refuse to look at it they are culpable. In many ways, the Protestant is the speeder who is going to plead that they did not know the speed limit. As a revert to Catholicism who was initially pushed toward conversion by Protestants, I can say that I've looked at the arguments and they are no good. If you like, pm me and we can look at any of these issues such as the Eucharist and see which side has the better case.

I haven't watched the video so I can't comment on that. If you want to post about the Eucharist here or in a PM, feel free.

Her beloved, venerable, and efficacious status.

Efficacious for what?

True, and like I said, I hold little against the Orthodox. Less against the Lutherans than the Calvinists (okay, much less ). There are many shades of grey, but all are measured against the One Light which casts them.

Now, if we could agree with what that One Light is. At least we agree on those horrible Calvinists.

Certainly. These generalizations are problematic. In my last, as you noted, I was speaking to hostile TOL Protestantism (which unfortunately is more representative of American Protestantism than some might think).

I think most hostility to Catholicism is from the non-denominational/evangelical circles. I tend to think the mainline denominations aren't bad. My experience with mainline churches is very limited though.

[Traditio]

Originally Posted by Cruciform

[font="Georgia"]I don't know, for the reasons already stated.

Before I answer this, I wish to preface my comments, especially in light of a post by Barbarian: there once was a time in which I advocated Feenyism; I'm not advocating this now. I've been known to speak ill of Vatican II previously. I'm not doing this now.

Suffice to say, if there is some document in Vatican II which addresses this point, then I willingly and wholeheartedly embrace whatever it says. The heirarchical Church knows better than Traditio.

But I would ask why God must necessarily wait until '"the hour of death" to implement these "extraordinary graces"? Could he not extend such graces over the course of one's entire life?

To be clear, though, what are we talking about? What does it mean for there to be an extraordinary grace, the sort of which is sufficient to save a Protestant?

Well, either this grace brings the Protestant into the life of Christ, in which case we have baptism. The Protestants, insfoar as they are Christians, have this. But this is not an extraordinary means.

I'll even grant that they, insofar as they can be called Christians, have faith in Christ and believe many true things.

But what I'm worried about is the sort of grace which can get rid of mortal sin. In order for a Protestant to be saved, either:

1. God would have to ensure that the Protestant's culpability is so diminished throughout his life that he never becomes guilty of a mortal sin in the first place, even if he commits sins which are objectively grave.

2. God would have to ensure that the Protestant's love for God is so strong throughout his entire life that he never commits a sin which is objectively grave.

3. The Protestant is perfectly contrite for his sins.

I suppose that in the case of 3, God could extent this grace throughout the Protestant's entire life, but to the extent that the Protestant is still alive, he can still commit more mortal sins.

And from personal experience: how difficult is it to be perfectly contrite?

Of course, I could be missing possibilities. I'm sure that you know more about these matters than I do, Cruciform. Thus the reason I PM'ed you a link to this thread.

Also, as the Compendium makes clear, there are various means of grace present even within ecclesial communities that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church.

By this, I am assuming tha the following is meant:

1. The Orthodox, though not united to the pope, have the sacraments, prayer to the saints and devotion to Our Lady.

2. Protestants have baptism.

I'm assuming first and foremost that the means of graces are fully present in the faith and rites of the Catholic Church. Thus, if other ecclesial communities have some means of grace, they'll be the same ones as are present in the Catholic Church. Except fewer of them. Because they don't have the faith and rites of the Catholic Church.

Thus, I don't deny that some means of grace are open even to the Muslims. They do, after all, believe in one God and they pray to that one God. They at least have the natural law, just as we all do.

That said. The Protestants probably have more means of grace than the Muslims, and the Orthodox have more means of grace than the Protestants.

Is that accurate?

God make use of such means of grace in the ultimate salvation of at least some non-Catholic Christians? Just some food for thought.

I've never denied this. God could, in principle, grant everyone except for Judas perfect contrition at the hour of death. And then, everyone, except for Judas, would go to Heaven.

This just seems really unlikely.

[TruthSetsFree]

Originally Posted by Choleric

Crucifox is woefully ignorant about most topics and has no defense for his heresy which is why he is constantly posting links. ANd then when you challenge the fact, he scampers away or changes the subject.

He post links as if they are substantive, then when addressed, he ignores the response because he has nothing to say and is incapable of addressing truth as he has no idea what truth is.

Cholera Plaguim is woefully ignorant about most topics and has no defense for his heresy which is why he is constantly posting nonsense. ANd then when you challenge the nonsense, he scampers away or changes the subject or calls people names or... does other unChristian things... all the while calling himself a Christian... Hey, just like Jim Jones, eh?

He posts his nonsense as it were substantive, then when addressed, he ignores the response because he has nothing to say and is incapable of addressing truth as he has no idea what truth is