[Cruciform]

Originally Posted by CabinetMaker

I would have to disagree. I find that going to scripture first to understand a particular passage does indeed provide Final and definitive answers to many things.

• First, your opinion has already been effectively disproven in Post #42 above.
• Second, your opinion is directly contradicted and ruled out by the actual state of Protestantism itself, that is, some 38,000+ competing and contradictory man-made non-Catholic denominations and sects in existence today, with more being invented every week. Thus, the Protestant "scripture-interprets-scripture" approach results in little more than hermeneutical subjectivism and exegetical chaos.

...why does being Catholic make you more Christian than when you were a Protestant?

The phrase "more Christian" is essentially meaningless. Basically, you're asking why one would want to be joined to the one historic Christian Church founded by his Lord and Savior, as opposed to one of the tens-of-thousands of schismatic distortions and man-made heterodox sects that have sprung up since the 16th century. The question seems entirely rhetorical to me.

You are not a teacher, are you.

For over twenty years now.

Everybody learns differently and it may take two or three different explications to help everybody understand the concept.

As I said, if you wish to re-state your question, I'll try to address it from another angle if you like.

So can you show us Christ's corporeal body here on earth?

Christ's body is present at every Catholic Mass in the mystery of the Eucharist. However, my reference to Jesus' post-resurrection spiritual body has to do with his appearances to believers prior to his ascension into heaven.

Again, being a good teacher is more than just posting inks.

...and, of course, I do much more than merely posting links, so your comment is plainly misplaced.

It frequently requires that you go beyond what is in your link and explain it in your own words.

Which I have done, and will continue to do, when I consider it appropriate.

Yes. Just look back at your interactions with those that disagree with you on this forum.

Wait. Are you referring to my theological position, or are you commenting on what you imagine to be my inner attitude and character (which is merely an ad hominem fallacy)? Big difference there.

I'm not, Jesus is.

Matthew 10:34-36

New International Version (NIV)

34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law —
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[a]

Back to Biblical Exegesis 101. This text has nothing whatsoever to do with denominationalism or sectarianism. Rather, it is referring to the effect that following Christ might have on individuals and relationships within one's family. It's about the cost of following Jesus Christ in all things. Unfortunately, you've both misinterpreted and misapplied this passage. (Guess the ol' "scripture-interprets-scripture" thing wasn't much help this time, hmm?)

In addition, your interpretation simply contradicts many other biblical passages that categorically condemn anti-ecclesial sectarianism and denominationalism in the Church, texts such as, e.g., Jn. 17:20-23; Rom. 16:17; 1 Cor. 1:10; Eph. 4:3-6; Phil. 2:1-2, etc.

Your implications remain quite clear.

Chalk it up to your overactive anti-Catholic imagination, then, since as I posted, I've never said any such thing, nor does the Church teach any such thing.

Once received, you are forever removed from judgment under the law. If you still believe that you can sin then you have not received salvation - you do not know Christ as your savior and are damned.

Sorry, but I simply don't accept the fallible opinions of your favored man-made non-Catholic sectarian doctrinal tradition on this point.

Romans 10:9-10

9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Wonderful. Now don't forget these.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

[Dona Bate]

Originally Posted by HisServant

Sorry, but I don't take rebukes from Satan seriously.

Get thee behind me!

I serve Christ... you serve the Pagan Gods of Rome adapted to take on a Christian appearance.

You have your cults of the Saints (demigods), the worship of the virgin goddess (Artemis was replaced with Mary)... you have 'priests' which were just retrained pagan priests, and you have temple virgins (your nuns).

You do not know Christ... it would behoove you to quit the charade and admit your idolatry.

Saint Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle.
Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray;
and do Thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host -
by the Divine Power of God -
cast into hell, satan and all the evil spirits,
who roam throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls.
Amen.

[HisServant]

Originally Posted by Dona Bate

Saint Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle.
Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray;
and do Thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host -
by the Divine Power of God -
cast into hell, satan and all the evil spirits,
who roam throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls.
Amen.

Go ahead, pray to your self imagined demi-god who cannot hear you.

Satan got kicked out of heaven because he wanted other angels to worship and pray to him. As such, Satan must be grinning with pride when you posted that.

[Dona Bate]

Originally Posted by HisServant

Go ahead, pray/ to your self imagined demi-god who cannot hear you.

Yes,Yes/No, No.

Originally Posted by HisServant

Satan got kicked out of heaven because he wanted other angels to worship and pray to him. / As such, Satan must be grinning with pride when you posted that.

Yes, Yes/No, No.

Let your word be 'Yes,Yes' or 'No, No'; anything more than this comes from the evil one." Matthew 5:37

"But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,"
Matthew 5:44

The Lord rebuke you! Jude 9-11

[HisServant]

Originally Posted by Dona Bate

Yes,Yes/No, No.



Yes, Yes/No, No.

Let your word be 'Yes,Yes' or 'No, No'; anything more than this comes from the evil one." Matthew 5:37

"But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,"
Matthew 5:44

The Lord rebuke you! Jude 9-11

Jesus taught us to pray... we are to ONLY PRAY TO THE FATHER.

He never prayed.. "Dear, St. Abraham, Isaac or Joseph".. He prayed "OUR FATHER WHO ART IN HEAVEN".

Obey Jesus!

[chrysostom]

"Do This in Remembrance of Me"

[Dona Bate]

Originally Posted by HisServant

Jesus taught us to pray... we are to ONLY PRAY TO THE FATHER.

He never prayed.. "Dear, St. Abraham, Isaac or Joseph".. He prayed "OUR FATHER WHO ART IN HEAVEN".

Obey Jesus!

In the O.T. we see that Moses, Abraham, and Job interceded on behalf of others... that's mediating between God and man. We know that it is okay to ask others here on earth to pray and intercede for us.... that's mediating between God and man. So, I think, once again, we have a situation where the Bible is being misinterpreted and misunderstood. There is only one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ, but as members of the Body of Christ, He allows us to share in His mediation. Also, Scripture tells us that we have only one foundation, Jesus Christ 1 Cor 3:11; but, Scripture tells us that there is more than one foundation Eph. 2:19-20. Scripture tells us that we have only Lord, Jesus Christ Eph. 4:4-5; but, Scripture tells us there is more than one lord Rev 19:16. Scripture tells us that we have only one Judge, Jesus Christ James 4:12; but, Scripture tells us there is more than one judge 1 Cor 6:2. Contradictions in Scripture? No! Not when these passages are all properly understood in context. Jesus is the only foundation; Jesus is the only Lord; and Jesus is the only Judge. But, we are members of Jesus Body. Therefore, we are able, according to the graces given by Christ, to share in Jesus role as foundation, as lord, and as judge, and in other aspects of Christ, as well.

God bless!

[HisServant]

Originally Posted by Dona Bate

In the O.T. we see that Moses, Abraham, and Job interceded on behalf of others... that's mediating between God and man. We know that it is okay to ask others here on earth to pray and intercede for us.... that's mediating between God and man. So, I think, once again, we have a situation where the Bible is being misinterpreted and misunderstood. There is only one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ, but as members of the Body of Christ, He allows us to share in His mediation. Also, Scripture tells us that we have only one foundation, Jesus Christ 1 Cor 3:11; but, Scripture tells us that there is more than one foundation Eph. 2:19-20. Scripture tells us that we have only Lord, Jesus Christ Eph. 4:4-5; but, Scripture tells us there is more than one lord Rev 19:16. Scripture tells us that we have only one Judge, Jesus Christ James 4:12; but, Scripture tells us there is more than one judge 1 Cor 6:2. Contradictions in Scripture? No! Not when these passages are all properly understood in context. Jesus is the only foundation; Jesus is the only Lord; and Jesus is the only Judge. But, we are members of Jesus Body. Therefore, we are able, according to the graces given by Christ, to share in Jesus role as foundation, as lord, and as judge, and in other aspects of Christ, as well.

God bless!

If you can personally talk to someone, I have no issue with you asking them for help.

But you cannot talk to the dead.. that is witchcraft.

[Dona Bate]

Originally Posted by HisServant

If you can personally talk to someone, I have no issue with you asking them for help.

But you cannot talk to the dead.. that is witchcraft.

Ok let's see if that allegation of how our praying to the Saints is practicing witchcraft because we cannot talk to the dead is true or not?

Acts 9:40-41 Here Peter is calling on the Saints in scripture.You cannot talk to the dead?

In Luke 9:30 Jesus is talking with the dead Moses & Elijah.
But aren't Moses & Elijah dead?
Also, in 1 Cor 11:1 we are told to imitate Christ!

Rev 5:8 "When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. "

The prayers of the Saints are being offered to God, What petitions would Saints in heaven have to offer God if it weren’t for the petitions we give them?
Those in heaven have no needs. If the saints in heaven couldn’t hear our prayers then this would imply that they are separated or cutoff from the Body of Christ. In fact, they are more alive than we are Mk 12:26-27 and are more closely united to Christ than we are.

Rev 5:14 "And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the elders fell down and worshiped. "
They are alive and speaking!

I could not put it any better than.. Mark 12:27
"He is God not of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.”

God bless!

[HisServant]

Originally Posted by Dona Bate

Ok let's see if that allegation of how our praying to the Saints is practicing witchcraft because we cannot talk to the dead is true or not?

Acts 9:40-41 Here Peter is calling on the Saints in scripture.You cannot talk to the dead?

In Luke 9:30 Jesus is talking with the dead Moses & Elijah.
But aren't Moses & Elijah dead?
Also, in 1 Cor 11:1 we are told to imitate Christ!

Rev 5:8 "When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. "

The prayers of the Saints are being offered to God, What petitions would Saints in heaven have to offer God if it weren’t for the petitions we give them?
Those in heaven have no needs. If the saints in heaven couldn’t hear our prayers then this would imply that they are separated or cutoff from the Body of Christ. In fact, they are more alive than we are Mk 12:26-27 and are more closely united to Christ than we are.

Rev 5:14 "And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the elders fell down and worshiped. "
They are alive and speaking!

I could not put it any better than.. Mark 12:27
"He is God not of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.”

God bless!

Nope.. nope.. and nope again...your support seems to be nothing more than figments of your imagination.

[Cruciform]

Originally Posted by HisServant

Nope.. nope.. and nope again...your support seems to be nothing more than figments of your imagination.

OR... HS's mindless, knee-jerk dismissal of all things Catholic---even if (especially when) it's found in Scripture---is merely am imposition of his own anti-Catholic-sectarian-tradition-driven imagination.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

[Dona Bate]

Originally Posted by Cruciform

OR... HS's mindless, knee-jerk dismissal of all things Catholic---even if (especially when) it's found in Scripture---is merely am imposition of his own anti-Catholic-sectarian-tradition-driven imagination.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

No question that is hs's way!
hisservant presents no specific rebuttal of our strong evidence presented in scripture (because there is none).Any evidence can only be demonstrated as true by those who believe in and belong to the one true visible church established with divine authority by Christ 2000 years ago.That is the Catholic church, the pillar and foundation of the truth! 1 Timothy 3:15. The only weapon hisservant uses for truth is to slander with childish insults. This won't work! Why? Because we are told in none other than the bible that, that is no way to present a case!....

"Present your case,” the Lord says.
“Bring forward your strong arguments,The King of Jacob says. " Isaiah 41:21

Originally Posted by HisServant

Nope.. nope.. and nope again...your support seems to be nothing more than figments of your imagination.

STRONG ARGUMENTS? Where are your 'strong arguments' hisservant?

In the absence here of hisservant's 'strong arguments' or indeed any 'real' argument perhaps it is time to take the advice given to us in; Matthew 10:14

Removes shoes, dusts down feet, moves on!

[CabinetMaker]

Originally Posted by Cruciform

• First, your opinion has already been effectively disproven in Post #42 above.

• Your and the Catholic Church's opinion regarding sola scripture is noted. But it is recognized for what it is - your opinion.[quote=Cruciform]
• Second, your opinion is directly contradicted and ruled out by the actual state of Protestantism itself, that is, some 38,000+ competing and contradictory man-made non-Catholic denominations and sects in existence today, with more being invented every week. Thus, the Protestant "scripture-interprets-scripture" approach results in little more than hermeneutical subjectivism and exegetical chaos.[.quote]Of these denominations, how many are really different in the issues that deal with salvation? There are plenty of differences regading drinking or not drinking, worshiping on Saturday or Sunday, which version of the bible to use and so on. But they all agree on the core doctrines of what salvation is. They are part of the Church Christ founded.

Keep in mind that the the Catholic church is not perfectly unified in all that they due. For instance, some of the Catholic faithful will bury a statue of St. Joseph in their front yard to make their hose sell quicker. This is probably not approved of by Rome but they do it anyway and are still considered Catholic. I am sure that there are subtle differences in the liturgy between countries yet they are still considered Catholic because the agree on the core doctrines of the faith.

Originally Posted by Cruciform

The phrase "more Christian" is essentially meaningless. Basically, you're asking why one would want to be joined to the one historic Christian Church founded by his Lord and Savior, as opposed to one of the tens-of-thousands of schismatic distortions and man-made heterodox sects that have sprung up since the 16th century. The question seems entirely rhetorical to me.

So basically you just prefer the weight of history but in honesty you cannot say that I or any other Protestant are any less devoted to God and Jesus than you. So what difference does it make which building we choose to worship in?

Originally Posted by Cruciform

For over twenty years now.


As I said, if you wish to re-state your question, I'll try to address it from another angle if you like.

I would just appreciate it if you would answer the question I asked. Remember, it is irrelevant how good you think your answer was, what matters is if people understood it. I asked a specific content about the link you posted that I want you to explain further. I did not find the explanation in your link to be sufficient. Can you expand upon what the link said?

Originally Posted by Cruciform

Christ's body is present at every Catholic Mass in the mystery of the Eucharist. However, my reference to Jesus' post-resurrection spiritual body has to do with his appearances to believers prior to his ascension into heaven.

A Catholic statement of faith that I disagree with. I do not believe that Christ's body must be rebroken and His blood respilt at every Mass everyday for the forgiveness of sins that were already forgiven on the cross. We partake of the Eucharist in memory of what He did for us because that is what Jesus told us to do. Remember.

Originally Posted by Cruciform

...and, of course, I do much more than merely posting links, so your comment is plainly misplaced.

Gee, I must have missed it.

Originally Posted by Cruciform

Which I have done, and will continue to do, when I consider it appropriate.

Once again your arrogance shines through. Its not about what YOU consider appropriate, its about doing God's work by ministering to others.

Originally Posted by Cruciform

Wait. Are you referring to my theological position, or are you commenting on what you imagine to be my inner attitude and character (which is merely an ad hominem fallacy)? Big difference there.

An observation about your behavior on this forum is not an ad hominem fallacy, it is an opinion regarding your behavior and tone on this site.

Originally Posted by Cruciform

Back to Biblical Exegesis 101. This text has nothing whatsoever to do with denominationalism or sectarianism. Rather, it is referring to the effect that following Christ might have on individuals and relationships within one's family. It's about the cost of following Jesus Christ in all things. Unfortunately, you've both misinterpreted and misapplied this passage. (Guess the ol' "scripture-interprets-scripture" thing wasn't much help this time, hmm?)

Are you sure about that? My Mom is a Catholic and I am a Protestant. We are divided by our faith in Christ simply because of the denomination we choose to affiliate with.

Originally Posted by Cruciform

In addition, your interpretation simply contradicts many other biblical passages that categorically condemn anti-ecclesial sectarianism and denominationalism in the Church, texts such as, e.g., Jn. 17:20-23; Rom. 16:17; 1 Cor. 1:10; Eph. 4:3-6; Phil. 2:1-2, etc.

Well, once the Catholics return to us then everything will be okay, wont it now! Seriously though, I think that there is less division between Protestants and Catholics on the core doctrines of the Faith. We quibble over things that have nothing to do with our salvation. Sadly, we are more than willing to kill each other over those differences.

Originally Posted by Cruciform

Chalk it up to your overactive anti-Catholic imagination, then, since as I posted, I've never said any such thing, nor does the Church teach any such thing.

No, yo never said any such thing, but your implications, that which is unsaid but conveyed by the tone of your posts, remains clear.

Originally Posted by Cruciform

Sorry, but I simply don't accept the fallible opinions of your favored man-made non-Catholic sectarian doctrinal tradition on this point.

And I do not accept the equally fallible opinions of the men who comprise the magisterium of the Catholic Church.

[Cruciform]

Originally Posted by CabinetMaker

Your and the Catholic Church's opinion regarding sola scripture is noted. But it is recognized for what it is - your opinion.

There are "opinions," and then there are "opinions." I'll take the "opinions" of Christ's historic and infallible Church over your personal theological preferences any day.

Of these denominations, how many are really different in the issues that deal with salvation?

• First, there's much more to the Christian faith than merely "salvation."
• Second, if the Protestant sects haven't divided over essentials (as you imply), that must mean that---wholly contrary to Christ---they have presumed to fracture and fragment the Body of Christ over NON-essentials!
• Third, all of this is moot, since the Protestant sects decidedly do disagree widely even over central and essential doctrines of the Christian faith---including soteriology.

Keep in mind that the the Catholic church is not perfectly unified in all that they due.

"...in all that they DO"? Who said anything about what various individuals do? We're discussing what people believe and teach---their doctrines.

So basically you just prefer the weight of history but in honesty you cannot say that I or any other Protestant are any less devoted to God and Jesus than you. So what difference does it make which building we choose to worship in?

The differences are both theological and spiritual, and they are profound. None of the 38,000+ non-Catholic sects that have been invented since the 16th century has, for example

• bishops who are the historical and ecclesiastical successors of the apostles
• a Head Bishop who is the historical and ecclesiastical successor of St. Peter, the Rock upon whom Jesus Christ himself vowed to build his Church (Mt. 16:18)
• the seven Sacraments as divinely-instituted means of spiritual and salvific grace
• the Real Presence of our Lord Jesus Christ in the Eucharist
• the full 73-book biblical canon
• etc...

Of course, then there's the immediately pertinent fact that the Catholic Church is that Church founded by Jesus Christ himself (Mt. 16:18-19), which he endowed with his own power and authority (Mt. 28:18-20; 1 Tim. 3:15), and all of the non-Catholic sects are therefore nothing more than anthropocentric distortions of, and schismatic defections from, that one historic Church. In short: Christ intends that all believers be joined to the historic Church that he himself founded and uniquely equipped to be his instrument on the earth.

I asked a specific content about the link you posted that I want you to explain further. I did not find the explanation in your link to be sufficient. Can you expand upon what the link said?

Sure. Please cite the number of the relevant post.

A Catholic statement of faith that I disagree with.

...yet one believed and taught by the Christian Church from its inception. One is puzzled, therefore, why any professed believer would presume to reject it.

I do not believe that Christ's body must be rebroken and His blood respilt at every Mass...

Neither do I, nor does any informed Catholic, since that isn't at all what the Catholic Church actually teaches. So much for your supposed "knowledge" of the Catholic faith... No wonder you abandoned Christ's historic Church---you apparently knew no better.

We partake of the Eucharist in memory of what He did for us because that is what Jesus told us to do. Remember.

Yes, the Eucharist is a memorial, but it is also much more than merely that. It should be noted that the first systematic opposition to the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist came from Berengarius of Tours in the 11th century! Your opinion is completely out of step with the entire first millennium of Christian belief and teaching.

Gee, I must have missed it.

Your selective memory at work once again.

Once again your arrogance shines through. Its not about what YOU consider appropriate, its about doing God's work by ministering to others.

We weren't discussing "doing God's work," but rather how I do or don't format my posts, and their specific content---matters which are entirely up to me, and concerning which your complaints are wholly irrelevant. So you can go ahead and put your ad hominem away, since it's simply inapplicable in this case.

An observation about your behavior on this forum is not an ad hominem fallacy, it is an opinion regarding your behavior and tone on this site.

...and it is completely irrelevant to the stated topic under discussion. Again:

"Are you referring to my theological position, or are you commenting on what you imagine to be my inner attitude and character?"

The latter, after all, is nothing more than a transparent Red Herring on your part.

Are you sure about that?

Afraid so.

My Mom is a Catholic and I am a Protestant. We are divided by our faith in Christ simply because of the denomination we choose to affiliate with.

Thus nicely proving my point.

Well, once the Catholics return to US then everything will be okay, wont it now!

Who in the world is "US"?!

Seriously though, I think that there is less division between Protestants and Catholics on the core doctrines of the Faith. We quibble over things that have nothing to do with our salvation.

Already addressed above.

No, yo never said any such thing, but your implications, that which is unsaid but conveyed by the tone of your posts, remains clear.

Only in the shallow recesses of your unreflective anti-Catholic mind. As I've already posted:

"Chalk it up to your overactive anti-Catholic imagination."

And I do not accept the equally fallible opinions of the men who comprise the magisterium of the Catholic Church.

Try again...



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+